Is it wrong to use confession as counseling?

[babochka]

On the other hand, neither one did confessions for just 45 minutes on Saturday afternoons.

Could be. With the exception of Padre Pio, I don’t know. St. John Vianney was known for hearing confessions for many hours each day. While I imagine the average confession didn’t last that long, I suspect he had a few that did.

The obligation to hear everyone’s confessions outweighs the need to provide spiritual counsel beyond the de minimus required for a valid confession in most parishes.

I tend to agree with you here, but others do not. One example is St. Alphonsus Ligouri, the patron saint of confessors, who said:

“But some will say, ‘If we treat sinners in this manner a great deal of our time will be taken up, and others who are waiting cannot be heard.’ But in answer I say, that it is better to hear one confession well than to hear a great number imperfectly. But the most appropriate answer is, that the confessor has not to give an account to God of the persons who are waiting, but only of the person whose confession he has begun to hear.” (from Selva, or The Dignity and Duties of the Priest)

The proper normal procedure - there are always exceptions - is to hear the confession, provide some counsel, and make seeking spiritual counsel outside the confession line part of the penance.

Proper normal procedure? Do you have a church document to back this up? I’ve never heard of seeking spiritual counsel as part of penance. I’m sure it exists, but I really don’t know about it being the proper, normal procedure. It seems that such would be the exception, not the norm.

 

[porthos11]

Amen!

I understand the concerns of those who say that giving spiritual counsel in the confessional takes too long. Of course, if you know that you are bringing a concern to confession that will take an exceptionally long time, it would be helpful and courteous to schedule an appointment. Sometimes, though, the need doesn’t become apparent until the confession is happening and a good priest will seize the moment to help a soul in need.

For those who make a blanket statement that confession is not the time for spiritual direction and counsel, I would simply point out that the church disagrees. These quotes are from a 2011 Vatican document published for priests as an aid to Confessors and Spiritual Directors. Although the two subjects are treated separately in the document, it is clear throughout that the overlap between the two is strong. I’ve given but two of the most compelling quotes.

clerus.org/clerus/dati/2011-05/20-13/Sussidio_per_Confessori_en.pdf

Personally, I would avoid a priest who only gives absolution and never gives advice and counsel, if I had another option. To me, spiritual counsel is an important part of the sacrament. The priest is judge and physician. A good physician gives his patients advice on how to avoid injury and illness in the future and in order to do that, needs to spend a bit of time understanding the patient and his or her lifestyle and particular situation. The same is true for a priest physician in confession.

Did people flock to famous confessors like Padre Pio, St. John Vianney and St. Alphonsus Ligouri because of their ability to move through the confession lines with great speed and their encouragement of the penitents to “be brief, be brutal and be gone”? No, they flocked to such confessors because they received good, solid counsel that helped them to grow in holiness.

Counsel and advice are always important within confession. That should not be omitted, and I don’t believe anyone’s saying that.

The OP mentioned “worries, thoughts, conflicting beliefs”, etc., which are NOT the proper matter for Confession. If this leads to him tying up 25 minutes of the priest’s time of a 30-minute Confession window, with 5 penitents lining up before Father has to stop, how is that not discourteous? You can confess a lifetime of mortal sins, get sufficient advice, absolution and penance, and still be done within 10 minutes. More in-depth counseling can be scheduled for a later time. Worries and throughts can and should be shared, even discussed with a priest, but not in the Confessional, but within a direction or counselling appointment.

 

[Neofight]

Of course it is when the priest steps out of his role as a spiritual father and undertakes what is proper to the role of psychologist. Confession is NOT a mental health function.

The priest MUST meet the requirements of the sacrament for validity. The priest MUST make confession readily available to the entire flock. Beyond that there is vast area of judgment, and different levels of training and competence among clergy, and priests can and do make mistakes, sometimes with disastrous results.

.

But by merely offering counseling during confession is not a mistake likely to lead to disaster.

Sometime legalism thwarts good theology. Which is precisely what the Holy Father is cautioning the clergy about when he says he expects the shepherds “to smell like the sheep”.

If another person in line, misses the opportunity for the sacrament because the time spent by the priest in counseling, and dies unexpectedly, my hunch is that Jesus will exercise mercy with understanding and compassion and not thumb through a rule book, only to say to the otherwise contrite person '“I’m sorry, my hands are tied…the rule book says, therefore no salvation for you!”

 

[brigid12]

I had a Sudden Death Cardiac Arrest when my labs were all fine and I had no reason to think I was going to die. The doctors didn’t know why I lived or why I had it. There is no way to not say that we are all in danger of death. Getting what you need and out of the way for others who may have a mortal sin on their soul is unconscionable. One may then make an appointment with the priest for spiritual guidance.

 

[babochka]

The OP mentioned “worries, thoughts, conflicting beliefs”, etc., which are NOT the proper matter for Confession. If this leads to him tying up 25 minutes of the priest’s time of a 30-minute Confession window, with 5 penitents lining up before Father has to stop, how is that not discourteous?

What about all of those people who are in line, taking up the priest’s time, with only venial sins to confess? What if there are 30 people in line, 29 of whom have only venial sins to confess. The priest is only able to get through the first 25 before Mass starts. The 30th person in line has a mortal sin and isn’t able to get to confession before Mass. Those 29 people in line were not really required to go to confession. Shouldn’t they just refrain from taking up the priest’s time and leave confession for those who really require it?

You can confess a lifetime of mortal sins, get sufficient advice, absolution and penance, and still be done within 10 minutes. More in-depth counseling can be scheduled for a later time.

Yes, it is possible. It is also possible that a particular penitent might require more. A good priest will discern that.

Worries and thoughts can and should be shared, even discussed with a priest, but not in the Confessional, but within a direction or counselling appointment.

If there’s a line, it seems polite and prudent to save those for another time, or an appointment, but there is nothing inherently wrong with discussing these things in confession.

I went on retreat this summer, and my bishop was one of 5 priests hearing confessions. I wanted to go to the bishop for confession because he is an insightful, thoughtful and holy man and I wanted to benefit from his spiritual counsel. Unfortunately, in the hour and a half that was scheduled for confessions, the bishop heard the confession of just 5 people, so I ended up going somewhere else. (I guess somewhere in his formation, he failed to learn that confessions shouldn’t take very long and that is is not the appropriate venue for spiritual counseling. )The other priests who were hearing confessions were a little bit faster, but not much. My 10 year-old daughter took 15 minutes. My own took about 20. Now, these priests had plenty of time. There was a finite number of people on retreat everybody who wanted to confess would have the opportunity. Nobody would be left out, no matter how much time it took. With the freedom brought about by these circumstances, ever single priest there took plenty of time to give counsel and spiritual direction.

I realize that this is not possible in most situations, in which confessions are heard for 60 minutes on a Saturday afternoon. I’ve given this example only to argue that there is a place for this within confession. It need not be confined to a separate appointment.

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

Even being in mortal sin is not an “urgent necessity” where canon law is concerned.

In fact it is.

.

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

Counsel and advice are always important within confession.

Spiritual counsel and advice.

The sacrament of Penance is primarily a judicial act. The primary counsel is the same counsel Jesus gave to each and every penitent He forgave: “Go and sin no more.”

It would be an extremely unusual confession which stays within the lines that takes 10 minutes.

.

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

… my hunch is that Jesus will exercise mercy with understanding and compassion and not thumb through a rule book, only to say to the otherwise contrite person '“I’m sorry, my hands are tied…the rule book says, therefore no salvation for you!”

Few people would be willing to risk their salvation on your hunch.

The salvation of Penance takes place when you honestly confess your sins and the priest sacramentaly absolves you of them.

A long “counseling” session is NOT necessary to the sacrament, and regularly sending people away is an abuse.

.

 

[ClearWater]

I’ve posted this before so perhaps the uniqueness has worn off, but we had a pastor years ago, who, when he saw long lines, would go to the mic and announce to us "look at all these people here for confession…Be brief, Be brutal and Be gone!" :thumbsup:

lol Good one!

 

[Neofight]

Few people would be willing to risk their salvation on your hunch.

.

It’s a paradigm thing.

Those who see Christ as a vengeful judge might not, but those who view Christ as the merciful redeemer, just might!

 

[porthos11]

In fact it is.

.

No, it’s not. “Urgent necessity” is not defined, but for the purposes of the law, this generally describes a necessity such that the faithful must be absolved from mortal sin, such as prior to ordination or getting married, which usually take place on a scheduled date and time, so as not to receive the Sacraments sacrilegiously. Merely remaining mortal sin, but with no danger of scandal, sacrilege or death, does not constitute “urgent necessity”. Because of this, it is perfectly fine for Father to have to stop confessions to attend to other duties, such as saying the scheduled Mass.

Of course from a spiritual standpoint, one should always seek absolution from mortal sin as soon as possible, but this is not the same definition used for the purposes of the law. This also means a priest will ignore you if you try lobbing canonballs at him.

The terms “urgent necessity” and “danger of death” are never interpreted according to extremes.

 

[babochka]

Counsel and advice are always important within confession. That should not be omitted, and I don’t believe anyone’s saying that.

The OP mentioned “worries, thoughts, conflicting beliefs”, etc., which are NOT the proper matter for Confession. If this leads to him tying up 25 minutes of the priest’s time of a 30-minute Confession window, with 5 penitents lining up before Father has to stop, how is that not discourteous? You can confess a lifetime of mortal sins, get sufficient advice, absolution and penance, and still be done within 10 minutes. More in-depth counseling can be scheduled for a later time. Worries and throughts can and should be shared, even discussed with a priest, but not in the Confessional, but within a direction or counselling appointment.

Perhaps we should put an end to confession of venial sins, as it isn’t strictly necessary and might prevent someone with a mortal sin from getting to confession during the allotted time. What if the last person in line has a mortal sin to confess, and all those 2 minute confessions of venial sins ahead of him took up all of the priest’s time?

I completely disagree that confession is not the time to bring up worries, thoughts and conflicting beliefs that affect one’s spiritual life. While it might not be best to do so when people are waiting in line behind you, it is completely appropriate if the priest and penitent have the time. There isn’t always a line for confession.

I went on retreat this summer. My bishop was one of 5 priests hearing confessions on the retreat, and I’d hoped to be able to confess to him, as he is a man of great compassion, insight and holiness. Unfortunately, I was not able to confess to the bishop because, in the entire 90 minutes that confessions were scheduled, he heard just 5 confessions. (I guess somebody forgot to tell him that this length of time is unnecessary and inappropriate for a confession.)The other priests at the retreat took a while, too. My own confession took 20 minutes. Even myy 10-year-old daughter’s took nearly 15. (I know this because I prayed a rosary for her during her confession and was surprised that I nearly finished it!) Each of the priests took time to give good counsel and spiritual direction **in the context of confession. **They took the time to dig deeper, ask about motivations, learn a bit about where each person was so that they could tailor the advice given. Could they do this all the time? Probably not. The context of a retreat is unique. But the fact remains that it is not inherently wrong to seek or give spiritual direction and counsel during confession.

 

[porthos11]

Perhaps we should put an end to confession of venial sins, as it isn’t strictly necessary and might prevent someone with a mortal sin from getting to confession during the allotted time. What if the last person in line has a mortal sin to confess, and all those 2 minute confessions of venial sins ahead of him took up all of the priest’s time?

It just means the line was too long. None of those people who had venial sins to confess would have done anything wrong, especially if they just took two minutes each.

I completely disagree that confession is not the time to bring up worries, thoughts and conflicting beliefs that affect one’s spiritual life. While it might not be best to do so when people are waiting in line behind you, it is completely appropriate if the priest and penitent have the time. There isn’t always a line for confession.

Sure and fine. But what if there is a line? I myself had had to wait, and even miss Confession with mortal sin and the girl took a good half an hour to get out. I had to use all my self-control to keep from entertaining uncharitable thoughts about that person, but I still found that really, really inconsiderate. My own confession was done in five minutes. I barely made it.

I went on retreat this summer. My bishop was one of 5 priests hearing confessions on the retreat, and I’d hoped to be able to confess to him, as he is a man of great compassion, insight and holiness. Unfortunately, I was not able to confess to the bishop because, in the entire 90 minutes that confessions were scheduled, he heard just 5 confessions. (I guess somebody forgot to tell him that this length of time is unnecessary and inappropriate for a confession.)The other priests at the retreat took a while, too. My own confession took 20 minutes. Even myy 10-year-old daughter’s took nearly 15. (I know this because I prayed a rosary for her during her confession and was surprised that I nearly finished it!) Each of the priests took time to give good counsel and spiritual direction **in the context of confession. **They took the time to dig deeper, ask about motivations, learn a bit about where each person was so that they could tailor the advice given. Could they do this all the time? Probably not. The context of a retreat is unique. But the fact remains that it is not inherently wrong to seek or give spiritual direction and counsel during confession.

If there is the time and if there isn’t a long line of sinners behind you.

It’s not charitable to deprive the poor sinners, who may have mortal sin on their souls of the chance to confess because someone wants to take 20 minutes to discuss worries, thoughts and household problems, when all that’s needed is to take five minutes to confess all mortal sins. Sure, if time is of the essence, by all means skip the venial sins too.

How difficult is it to be considerate of other people in Confession as well? Saturday Confession is not a retreat. It may be the only time for many working people to get restored to grace before Sunday Mass.

 

[babochka]

I deem it inconsiderate.

In the circumstances that I gave, in which everyone’s confessions would be heard, inconsiderate to whom?

 

[Kithri]

Well, we really don’t know what’s going on when that confession ahead of us takes 45 minutes instead of two. Perhaps it is a soul returning after 40 years away from the faith, or maybe it’s someone on the verge of suicide. Or maybe the priest doesn’t have good boundaries. Or maybe the confessee is a self-centered doofus. Or, or, or.

I have had to miss confession a few times because someone took too long. I have also been untimely pushed out of the confessional at a truly precarious point in my life, a moment when I needed real help but got the bum’s rush instead. Could have lost my faith, but thank God I didn’t.

Yes, in an ideal world confession would never take more than 5 minutes. Except that in an ideal world, we wouldn’t need confession!

 

[porthos11]

In the circumstances that I gave, in which everyone’s confessions would be heard, inconsiderate to whom?

I edited that post. Please delete the quote.

 

[RyanBlack]

I deem it inconsiderate.

As Babochka asked, inconsiderate to whom, given the fact that everyone’s confessions were heard. Furthermore, Babochka is Eastern Catholic, and in our traditions, spiritual counseling/spiritual direction are often done in the context of our confession. So no, there was nothing inconsiderate about it.

 

[porthos11]

As Babochka asked, inconsiderate to whom, given the fact that everyone’s confessions were heard. Furthermore, Babochka is Eastern Catholic, and in our traditions, spiritual counseling/spiritual direction are often done in the context of our confession. So no, there was nothing inconsiderate about it.

I edited that post. Please delete the quote.

 

[babochka]

In my experience, it has been the priests that turned confession into a counseling session. Once I had an elderly priest from the monastery in town who went on . . . and on . . . and on . . . and on . . .

Yes, this happens, too. It is interesting how everybody blames the penitent. I know a local parish in which there are usually 3 priests hearing confessions. One of the lines is always an “express line” and that priest moves 2-3 times faster than the “middle” line. The third line is definitely the “relax and get settled in line, you’ll be here awhile” line. Priests definitely have different styles.

 

[babochka]

The OP asked the question “Is it wrong to use confession as counseling”.

She didn’t say anything about time constraints or lines, appointments or scheduled confession times. She just asked if it is wrong to bring up her worries, thoughts, conflicting beliefs, etc. in addition to her sins. There might be circumstances under which it would be prudent and considerate to keep her confession short and limit the topics discussed, but the fact remains that it is not inherently wrong to bring these topics up during the context of a confession.

Opinions abound in this topic, but I’ve yet to see somebody quote the catechism or a church document, or any official source whatsoever to back up the assertion that it is wrong.