N
Nita
Guest
You’re right. I typed the wrong numbers. I meant 676 and 677.
- Status
You’re right. I typed the wrong numbers. I meant 676 and 677.
A
Atemi
Guest
“But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.”
…
P
peary
Guest
Has van Impe been right about anything? LOL He changes his shtick according to the world flow. Before, it was Russia that would usher in the end times with nuclear war. Now, it’s changed to Iran and Iraq. The millienium should have taken place in 2000, now it’s a different year entirely. I even heard him talk about the year 2012 - one of the biggest farces propagated by the New Age movement. How gullible can people be about this guy anyway? And, just like Hal Lindsay, he’s making millions off of the gullibility of naive Christians.
M
Minnesota_Mary
Guest
The prophecies of Ezekiel and Isaiah have already been fulfilled. The temple was rebuilt and Jesus taught in it while he walked on earth. Jesus is now ruling from the New Jerusalem which is not the the piece of real estate in the Middle East.
A
Atemi
Guest
Sorry.
I was quoting Justin Martyr’s understanding of the text and his eschatology, not yours.
…
C
Church_Militant
Guest
, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare."Yeah, but unlike dispensationalist theologians JM never charts it all out or anything like that. In fact, neither does the Word of God and so he proves far more wise than many more modern believers and theologians.
He says nothing more than what the Catholic Church teaches.
Many modern n-Cs could learn from him.
A
Atemi
Guest
Justin Martyr believed in a literal reign of Christ in the earthly Jerusalem for a literal thousand years after His return in glory. He said it is the “right minded Christians” that believe this.
The Catholic Church does not teach that.
Pretending JM held a position he did not does not help anyone who would do so.
…
C
Church_Militant
Guest
for a literal thousand years after His return in glory. He said it is the “right minded Christians” that believe this.
The Catholic Church does not teach that.That’s misrepresenting JM. He never says anything in that chapter about implies that that Jerusalem is an earthly one even as the Word of God does not say so.
The Catholic Church shouldn’t teach it because the Word of God and the ECF never taught it.
Exactly right Atemi! Why’d you do that then?
S
Seeking_God
Guest
2 Peter 3-8
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Bible says that in the end times people will mock the promise of the Lord’s return (2 Peter 3:3-4). What is so shocking is that most of the mockery is coming from within the Church!
A
Atemi
Guest
I am sorry, Michael, but you are very incorrect on this.
Justin is emphatic and plain that he believes Christ will literally reign for 1000 years in the earthly Jerusalem. In the chapter in question, he makes clear that the Jerusalem he is speaking of would be “rebuilt.”
Where does the Catholic Church teach that the Heavenly Jerusalem will need to be rebuilt?
To ever say that Justin was not refering to the earthly Jerusalem is to deny some of the most obvious of his teachings.
Even in the very next chapter, he elaborates:
“there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place”
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.lxxxi.html
Justin is emphatic that this is an earthly reign.
Historian Schaff explains:
“The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene age is the prominent chiliasm, or millennarianism, that is the belief of a visible reign of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before the general resurrection and judgment. It was indeed not the doctrine of the church embodied in any creed or form of devotion, but a widely current opinion of distinguished teachers, such as Barnabas, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, and Lactantius”
(HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH, Volume 2, Chapter 12)
Justin’s position is undeniable. I am sorry you feel compelled to do so for some reason.
…
C
Church_Militant
Guest
."
Where does the Catholic Church teach that the Heavenly Jerusalem will need to be rebuilt?
To ever say that Justin was not refering to the earthly Jerusalem is to deny some of the most obvious of his teachings.
…
Justin’s position is undeniable. I am sorry you feel compelled to do so for some reason. The problem here is that you have confused and intermingled two different things. Nowhere in any of that does Justin Martyr specify that the Jerusalem that he peaks of will be an earthly one. It’s not there. I read it and it’s simply not there at all.
I have no problem with Christ and an earthly reign, but there is nothing in there at all that even implies that that New Jerusalem is an earthly one.
It seems pretty clear that many people try to force this quote into their pet end times theologies.
I don’t buy it.
J
jason59012003
Guest
I have no problem with JVI, except that he should be focusing more on realistic topics than trying to predict the end of the world. Interesting topic, but there are many that are more important for bringing souls to Christ. People have been trying to predict and prove Christ’s return for centuries, and none have been right. He’ll come like a thief in the night. I assume that God does not intend for us to know the time or fashion He will come. I wish people would stop trying to take it upon themselves to interpret and just trust what the Catholic Church teaches and says. I find it hard to understand why protestants cannot see the need for unified authority. None of them agree on anything, and just seem plain old heretical.
Christ’s peace be with you.
Christ’s peace be with you.
G
garysibio
Guest
I wouldn’t be betting my future on anything Harold Camping has to say.
What part of Matt 24:36 doesn’t he get?Gary
C
Church_Militant
Guest
A real good point. After all…
"44 Wherefore be you also ready, because at what hour you know not the Son of man will come. 45 Who, thinkest thou, is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath appointed over his family, to give them meat in season.
46 Blessed is that servant, whom when his lord shall come he shall find so doing. 47 Amen I say to you, he shall place him over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart: My lord is long a coming: 49 And shall begin to strike his fellow servants, and shall eat and drink with drunkards: 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day that he hopeth not, and at an hour that he knoweth not:
51 And shall separate him, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. " (Matthew 24)
G
garysibio
Guest
I’m not defending his theology or his history but let’s cut the guy a little slack. He’s 78 years old and is, on occasion, going to say something wrong by accident. At least he’s trying and, frankly, I’d rather deal with someone like him than some priest who is trying to tell me that the real miracle of the loaves and fishes is that people were sharing.
Van Impe has changed quite a bit over the years (in a good way) and it has cost him a lot. When he started to say that the Catholic Church was Christian and that then-pope John Paul II was a good and holy man (I’ve even heard him refer to him as John Paul the Great), he lost a huge chunk of his financial support.
While he may get his facts wrong, he’s got his integrity right and, to my mind, that’s more important.
Gary
E
East_Anglican
Guest
Not all protestants. Also, many try to use tthe church fathers to back up things that were not an issue to them.
E
East_Anglican
Guest
I’ve obviously not read the right early church literiture. Also, the rapture of The Church isn’t in The Bible anywhere. All scriptures used are out of context.
By this Jack has given us a date for the second coming. 7 years after the rapture. As Jesus said “Nobody knows the day or hour.” Jack must be nobody.
Also, according to Jack Van Impe, Lutherans, Anglicans and Catholics are really dispensationalists. As an Anglican I can tell you we are not.
R
rtconstant
Guest
I agree. While I completely disagree with his views on end times and such. I do honestly believe that he is sincere and while I think that he should focus more on the here and now I’m not going to knock him for looking for the return of the Lord.
Also he is one of the few tele-evangelists out there that is not only not and anti-Catholic I get the impression that he actually likes and respects us.
He seems to be a good man so I’m OK with him.
S
Seeking_God
Guest
Gods Holy Word in The Bible clearly teaches there will be a New Jerusalem on earth from Heaven and God describes it.
Revelation 21:1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
**2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. **
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
**24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. **25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
A
artist3189
Guest
This says it all. Simple and to the point. Use this template whenever you want to find reason with any statements made by Evangelist of Van Impe’s ilk.
- Status