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Tsuwano
Guest
I pray and hope that all of God’s children are in heaven with him, especially those who seem so far from him in our eyes.
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Cathdefender
Guest
Jimmy wasn’t mocking Dahmer’s baptism, it just wasn’t an ‘official’ baptism…
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jmcrae
Guest
It doesn’t have to be. Even an atheist can baptize, as long as he uses the Trinitarian formula and intends to the best of his ability to do what the Church does.Jimmy wasn’t mocking Dahmer’s baptism, it just wasn’t an ‘official’ baptism…
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Pong
Guest
Water + intent + trinitarian formula = valid baptism.
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Cathdefender
Guest
Are you sure?
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jmcrae
Guest
Absolutely.
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Jimmy_B
Guest
“Because although you may well know the state of your own soul and the circumstances of your own sin, you cannot know the same of others.”
This comment implies that I wrote, that I know that state of another’s soul and I never wrote that.
“You clearly don’t belive in the mercy of God,”
Which comment of mine are you basing this on?
“…don’t you think God already knew that?”
Doesn’t this comment of yours imply a certain amount of “predestination” which is in conflict with Catholic beliefs.
“…then there is a good chance that he is either in, or on his way to heaven.”
Why is it ok for you to say that there is a good chance he is in heaven but I can’t say that there is a good chance that he is not in heaven?
Have you even read all of my posts here?
“If someone made me guess, I’d say no. I doubt someone that eveil and depraved was capable of contrition”
This quote above….Is Not Mine! You indicated that is belong to “bilop”, yet, your comments here wrongly assume that I share the same conclusions and I do not…Although, I will not judge this poster because this is his own opinion and it is not that unreasonable.
Like your opinion…there is a “good chance”…he is right?
I never mock his baptism, I just chose not to assume that it was valid and that’s different.
Please go back and read my post…
I wish more here would defend Catholics as much as some here have defended Dahmer.
Where is your “mercy” for me? What has gotten into you?
Peace
P
Pong
Guest
This was in response to your comment:
?
You asked why it is unreasonable to assume the same for others who commit the same sins. I answered your question. There was no need for me to assume anything.
I’m basing that comment on:
No. It implies that God is omnipotent and thus knew that these lives would play out this way and allowed it to happen in his divine will.
Yes, I have. Several times in fact. It is wrong firstly because speculation about the state of others’ souls is wrong (which I am also guilty of by participation in this thread, btw), and secondly because saying that there is a good chance that someone is in hell violates the laws of charity by assuming the worst of a fellow human being. We are always to assume the best.
Yes, I Know That It Was Not Your Comment. That is why I prefaced it with an address to the original speaker. I never assumed that you followed that speaker’s line of thinking. Had I so assumed, I would have addressed my comment to both of you.
Then you once again choose to disagree with the Church who says that baptisms are valid under specific conditions which Dahmer’s baptism appears to have met.
I am defening Catholics and all we believe by not allowing falsehoods to go unchallenged.
What would you have me do, sir? Agree with you although what you say is wrong? Charitable, fraternal correction is also a belief of the Church. As for mercy, I have not attacked you; I have only asked you why you continue to profess a belief system which you don’t seem to agree with. Many have asked me the same thing, and it is a fair question.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Is this even a fit topic to spend one’s energy and mind upon?
I suggest it is NOT!
I suggest it is NOT!
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mozart-250
Guest
I voted “Yes, because he was born again in prison”.
First of all, I don’t know for sure he is in heaven. I am not God.
But it is my personal policy to accept everybody who professes faith in Christ and seems to exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit as my brother in Christ.
I have no reason to exclude Jeffrey Dahmer from what little I know.
First of all, I don’t know for sure he is in heaven. I am not God.
But it is my personal policy to accept everybody who professes faith in Christ and seems to exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit as my brother in Christ.
I have no reason to exclude Jeffrey Dahmer from what little I know.
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yellowbird
Guest
I guess the bottom line for me is I am not certain Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven… and I’m not certain he’s in hell.
What I am 100% certain of is this: he is exactly where God wants him to be.
What I am 100% certain of is this: he is exactly where God wants him to be.
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Pug
Guest
I worry that not enough Catholics are aware of how dangerous missing mass is. I mean, most likely do know it is a “mortal sin”, but I worry that a few Catholics think that they will be “safe” anyway, and that there is no chance that they won’t go to confession next week, etc.
It is when you say that you think horrible person X is in Hell that it sounds like a judgment of the internal state of person X at the time of their death. I’m not saying it *is *a judgment. There are several things you could have in mind by the word “think”. Me, I’d likely mean a judgment in that context. Since you mention the word “unlikely” in the previous sentence, I figure you can’t mean a judgment of internal things, but rather one about the danger that certain behaviors pose or something similar.
The idea that the Justice of God is comforting makes sense to me. It is reassuring that justice really exists and that God cares about it. He is perfectly Just. It’s not all the same to him. His Son died for sin!
Making a prudential judgment to avoid a person is not equivalent to making a judgment that their heart is evil. We are told to avoid near occasions of sin. If we judge it likely that a certain person will try to involve us in armed robbery, we ought to avoid that person if we think we will fall (unless we cannot avoid them, etc.). That doesn’t mean we have to necessarily judge that the person indeed has a foul heart that is devoid of sanctifying grace.
It is acceptable to tell someone that repentance remains possible even after extremely foul deeds. However, it is also acceptable to tell people how bad of an idea it is to go off to do a grave sin under the blithe assumption God will give force upon you the grace of perfect contrition afterwards (or the equivalent).
Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
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Jimmy_B
Guest
There are several different ways that a person can receive baptism and I don’t know if Dahmer’s baptism was valid and neither does anyone else here.Absolutely.
Follow me….for example, if the only reason Dahmer chose to be baptized as an adult, in prison, on death row, was because someone told him that there was a “loop-hole” where he could avoid God’s wrath and final judgment, and he was not truly repentant, which I believe is required for healthy adults wishing to be baptized, then I don’t believe the baptism would be valid.
If I were converting to Catholicism and I told a priest that I did not need to be baptized in the Catholic Church by a Catholic priest, because I had already had a friend of mine baptized me in a bathtub, would that priest, or the Catholic Church consider my “baptism” valid…I don’t think so, I believe there would first have to be some sort of inquiry to determine whether or not the prior adult baptism was valid.
My guess is that a response one would might get from a Catholic priest regarding Jeffery Dahmer, would be “we could only hope”.
Most Catholics know that, if there is an emergency and a priest is not available that anyone can perform a Baptism using water and the Trinity.
I could be wrong here …please let me know… but I don’t think that adults who have “one thing in there heart” and are saying another, automatically receive forgiveness during adult Baptism.
For all we know, Dahmer could believed that his baptism was a big joke and he does not believe in Jesus Christ, but did so because he thought it would get him out of hell…Can you see my point here?
If this did occur, where Dahmer was merely exploiting the Sacrament of Baptism, would his baptism still be valid? Maybe not, one must also consider the Sin of Presumption.
Best case scenario for Dahmer, it that he has the “hope” of salvation.
When the Roman Catholic Church specifically says that Dahmer’s Baptism was valid, then I’ll believe it was valid, until then, I chose not to believe one way or another but I am leaning towards-invalid.
And I’ll probably be critized for that here, as well…
Peace
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cecilia97
Guest
Amen.
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ralphinal
Guest
I kept reading posts and I missed one important point.
Anyone who would do what Dahmer did is not 100% right in the head. I am not saying that he was unable to tell right from wrong, but there still might be some decreased culpability in God’s eyes.
IN any event, if he repented truly, he is on his way to heaven. IF he did not, he is not.
I am not losing one wink of sleep worrying about it. It is not my descision and I do not have the ability to read his soul.
Anyone who would do what Dahmer did is not 100% right in the head. I am not saying that he was unable to tell right from wrong, but there still might be some decreased culpability in God’s eyes.
IN any event, if he repented truly, he is on his way to heaven. IF he did not, he is not.
I am not losing one wink of sleep worrying about it. It is not my descision and I do not have the ability to read his soul.
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Jimmy_B
Guest
I give up Pong,
I won’t reply to your comments here anymore because your responses, for the most part, have nothing do with anything that I’ve said.
In this post of yours for example, you used a quote of mine, where I wrote that I did believe in God’s mercy to try to justify why you wrote earlier, that I didn’t believe in God’s mercy…:banghead:
You wrote-
I’m basing that comment on:
Quote:
I believe that we are judged by our “works”, good and bad. I also believe that a virtuous life does have merit. I do not believe that there exists an automatic “Get out of Hell” card.
I believe in God’s infinite mercy and I believe that anything is possible in God; however, I also believe that bad people go to Hell. Jeffrey Dahmer is a bad person so doesn’t that mean that he is in Hell?
“I believe in God’s infinite mercy” was my quote, can’t you see it? …it’s right there (above).
Read peoples posts here before you respond and you might make more sense.
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nsper7
Guest
If he was truly born again and accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior, then Dahmner would be Saved.
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Pug
Guest
There is invalidly and there is unworthily. If a man thinks that doing this thing that the Church does would get him out of Hell, and so he intends to try to get out of Hell, and so he truly intends to receive whatever it was (baptism), then that sounds like he has intent. Also, if a man validly receives baptism but he does not have repentance for his sins, then he likely receives it unworthily. Validly but unworthily received baptism imparts the character or mark and cannot be repeated. The graces will flow when the unworthily part is remedied (this last is probably not a De Fide statement, but rather on a lower level than that).
Right now, all I can cough up that is explicit about validly compared to worthily (and uses those words) is something from the Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott, p 359.
Of course, if a hypothetical person had been baptized as a child and didn’t know it, the “baptism” as an adult would not be a baptism and thus would not remit sin in the way baptism does.
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Pug
Guest
Yes, I think you are reading it correctly. A man who receives baptism unworthily would not receive sanctifying grace automatically at that time. It would happen later, like when the person did finally repent. At least, that is my understanding.
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