Is Jeffrey Dahmer in Heaven?

[O.S.Luke]

Having been a victim, I can tell you that the death of a perpetrator and murderer doesn’t bring much closure or finality to anything. Just more death. Vengeance is the Lord’s not ours.

I could care less if Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven; him being in hell doesn’t give me more or less comfort. Those are eternal questions that only God need worry about. For me to worry about them, or even to have an opinion, is to place myself in a place of judgment that I dare not even contemplate. I am at best a sinner saved by grace. I have no business even making judgments eternal on another human being.

Perhaps a old early Christian desert father story is appropriate:

A brother who was insulted by another brother came to Abba Sisoes, and said to him: “I was hurt by my brother, and I want to avenge myself.” The old man tried to console him and said: “Don’t do that, my child. Rather leave vengeance to God.” But he said: “I will not quit until I avenge myself.” Then the old man said: “Let us pray, brother; and standing up, he said: ‘O God, we no longer need you to take care of us since we now avenge ourselves.’”

Hearing these words, the brother fell at the feet of the old man and said: “I am not going to fight with my brother any more. Forgive me, Abba.”

I think Dahmer was an evil man. I don’t know his last words or his heart in the end. I don’t need to. God has been taking care of these things long before I was around - and I suspect he laughs at our foolishness in even debating such a thing.

 

[Howard_Roark]

how many posts to say “we don’t know”.

 

[Pong]

I give up Pong,

I won’t reply to your comments here anymore because your responses, for the most part, have nothing do with anything that I’ve said.

Yep. Directly quoting what you have said and responding to it definitely has nothing to do with anything you’ve said.

In this post of yours for example, you used a quote of mine, where I wrote that I did believe in God’s mercy to try to justify why you wrote earlier, that I didn’t believe in God’s mercy…

It is the second part of that quote that I take issue with, sir. I posted the quote in its’ entirety for the sake of fair play. I do apologize; I should know that I need to spell it out for you. Here is the part that I disagree with:

I also believe that bad people go to Hell. Jeffrey Dahmer is a bad person so doesn’t that mean that he is in Hell?

The world is not divided into “good” people and “bad.” We are all sinners deserving hell. Thus your saying that you believe “bad” people go to hell seems to fly in the face of the merciful God you mentioned earlier (if by “bad” people, you mean sinners.) However, please do correct me if your criteria for a “bad” person is something other than sinfulness.

 

[allhers]

Jimmy B,
Have you ever heard of the Communion of Saints, or do you properly understand it?
The Communion of Saints
newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm

Our Lady of Fatima is approved by the Church
Read about St. Jacinta here:
ewtn.com/fatima/children/jacinta.htm
(From that article that I linked above.) I did the bolding.
Her **(St. Jacinta now), **reluctance to reveal anything more of their experiences was increased **by the vision of hell **given the children in the third apparition seems to have affected Jacinta the most. To rescue sinners from hell, she was in the forefront of the three in voluntary mortifications, whether it was in giving up their lunches (sometimes to their sheep), refusing to drink in the heat of the day, or wearing a knotted rope around their waists. Involuntary penances included for her, as for her brother and cousin, the constant mockery of unbelievers, badgering by skeptical clergy, and wheedling by believers to reveal the Lady’s secret.
Following the miracle of the sun, Jacinta complied with many requests for her intercessions. On one occasion she seems to have bilocated, in order to help a wayward youth find his way home. Lost in a stormy wood, he had knelt and prayed, and Jacinta appeared and took him by the hand, while she was at home praying for him.

When she came down with influenza, she was removed from her family to a hospital a few miles away. She did not complain, because the Blessed Mother had forewarned her that she would go to two hospitals, not to be cured, but to suffer for the love of God and reparation for sinners. She stayed in the first hospital for two months, undergoing painful treatments, and then was returned home. She developed tuberculosis and was sent to Lisbon, first to a Catholic orphanage. There she was able to attend Mass and see the Tabernacle, and she was happy. But her stay there was short. She was soon transferred to the second hospital prophesied by the Blessed Mother, where Jacinta was to make her final offering in dying alone. Her body came to rest in the Sanctuary built at the Cova da Iria, where the Lady had appeared to her.

Read about them all here: Sr. Lucia, (whom will one day probably also be named a Saint.), St. Jacinta and St. Francisco
ewtn.com/fatima/

A elderly lady that I know prays daily for the “soul that is furthest from God to become the soul closest to God.” Ought we not all join her in that prayer? Why would you want any sinner to go to hell? I chose that it is possible that he is in heaven.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Yep. Directly quoting what you have said and responding to it definitely has nothing to do with anything you’ve said.

It is the second part of that quote that I take issue with, sir. I posted the quote in its’ entirety for the sake of fair play. I do apologize; I should know that I need to spell it out for you. Here is the part that I disagree with:

The world is not divided into “good” people and “bad.” We are all sinners deserving hell. Thus your saying that you believe “bad” people go to hell seems to fly in the face of the merciful God you mentioned earlier (if by “bad” people, you mean sinners.) However, please do correct me if your criteria for a “bad” person is something other than sinfulness.

Hello again pong,

You are not going to cut me any slack, are you…

The below quote of mine, is a question -

I also believe that bad people go to Hell. Jeffrey Dahmer is a bad person so doesn’t that mean that he is in Hell?

Take care

 

[jmcrae]

I also believe that bad people go to Hell. Jeffrey Dahmer is a bad person so doesn’t that mean that he is in Hell?

“Jeffery Dahmer is a bad person” is a judgment. We as Catholics are not allowed to make judgments. We can say, “Jeffery Dahmer did many terrible and bad things,” but we can never say,
“Jeffery Dahmer is a bad person.”

Everyone who is in Hell did bad things at some point in their lives.

All except two of the people in Heaven also did many bad things in their lives.

This is why it is so difficult for us to know who goes where.

Realistically, I don’t expect to see Jeffery Dahmer in Heaven. Then again, I might be seeing him in Hell, because I can’t know where I’m going, either.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy B,
Have you ever heard of the Communion of Saints, or do you properly understand it?
The Communion of Saints
newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm.

Hello alheres,

Yes, I am very familiar with the Communion of the Saints. I am a “Rosary making”, Knights of Columbus", observant cradle-Catholic.

What does your comment here, have to do with Jeffrey Dahmer and whether or not he is in heaven?

Jeffrey Dahmer is not a Saint, that I can say with certainty.

Our Lady of Fatima is approved by the Church
Read about St. Jacinta here:
ewtn.com/fatima/children/jacinta.htm
(From that article that I linked above.)… To rescue sinners from hell, she was in the forefront of the three in voluntary mortifications, whether it was in giving up their lunches (sometimes to their sheep), refusing to drink in the heat of the day, or wearing a knotted rope around their waists. Involuntary penances included for her, as for her brother and cousin, the constant mockery of unbelievers, badgering by skeptical clergy, and wheedling by believers to reveal the Lady’s secret… the Blessed Mother had forewarned her that she would go to two hospitals, not to be cured, but to suffer for the love of God and reparation for sinners. She stayed in the first hospital for two months, undergoing painful treatments, and then was returned home. She developed tuberculosis and was sent to Lisbon, first to a Catholic orphanage. There she was able to attend Mass and see the Tabernacle, and she was happy. But her stay there was short. She was soon transferred to the second hospital prophesied by the Blessed Mother, where Jacinta was to make her final offering in dying alone…
Read about them all here: Sr. Lucia, (whom will one day probably also be named a Saint.), St. Jacinta and St. Francisco
ewtn.com/fatima/

A elderly lady that I know prays daily for the “soul that is furthest from God to become the soul closest to God.” Ought we not all join her in that prayer? Why would you want any sinner to go to hell? I chose that it is possible that he is in heaven

allhers,

I am a big fan of Sister Lucia. I love the picture of her with John Paul II.

I have always wanted to travel to Lourdes and Fatima. She will probably be a Saint in our lifetime. I also enjoy watching EWTN.

I do not “want a sinner to go to hell”. I have simply asked a question here to bring attention to Heaven and Hell; Good verses Evil; Justification and Salvation; “Born-Again” verses Catholicism; and the “Hope’ of Salvation" verses “Once Saved Always Saved”.

It is also interesting that Adult Baptism came up in this discussion.

As a Catholic, I do not believe that everyone who says that they “believe in Jesus Christ”, is automatically going to Heaven but some here do.

I appreciate your comments here, we should all pray for one another, including our enemies and sinners. We are all sinners but I do believe that some people are good and some people are evil. I am sorry that some posters here, disagree me on this point.

God may have create us all equal but there are some people out there, that are, just plan, no good. We may be born equal but by the end of our lives we are not equal. There are some who have lived a virtuous life and some who have done evil things, most of their lives and that’s a fact.

Jeffery Dahmer is an extreme example of Evil and I hope to bring attention to sin and the fact that God is Merciful but He is also Just. Regardless of what others here have said, God does punish the wicked. However, like others here have pointed out, God has the ability to forgive anyone, so as long as we are alive, we have the Hope of Salvation. I hope this helps.

God Bless you and others here who may have misunderstood my point here, in this thread.

Peace

 

[Pong]

Jimmy, I am trying to cut you some slack my dear, but you are making it a bit difficult! The second part of that quote is a question, but the first part is a statement; an assertion.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy, I am trying to cut you some slack my dear, but you are making it a bit difficult! The second part of that quote is a question, but the first part is a statement; an assertion.

Thank you.

 

[Jimmy_B]

“Jeffery Dahmer is a bad person” is a judgment. We as Catholics are not allowed to make judgments…

Hello jmcrae,

I like you but I have to disagree with you on this point, it all depends on your definition of judgment, not only can we make judgments but we must judge others, in order to keep ourselves safe and to protect our family.

“Judging” occurs in any application process or background check.

People make judgments about other people every day, that’s why people are concerned with personal grooming. . Anybody who says they don’t judge others, isn’t being truthful, it’s in our nature.

In this thread alone, people have judged me… for judging…see my point?

There is difference in judging sin to avoid it… and to point out to others, what not to do and false judging.

There is also a difference between truthfully judging of a person and /or a situation and “Final Judgment” which is reserved for God alone.

If you don’t think that you judge anyone (generally speaking) then I invite you to walk through some of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the world, at night…How do we know they are dangerous…we know because people have made a judgment. You probably wouldn’t do it and you wouldn’t allow your young children to do it either…right?

I agree with you that Jeffrey Dahmer was a bad person….oops, there I go judging again.

If because we are Catholic, we were not allowed to “judge” others, then what is the point in having police officers and courts and judges and jurors and so and so…

Jeffrey Dahmer went to prison because people judged him…if they were Catholic, are you implying they did something wrong? I don’t think that you are and most of my comments here are of a general nature but I hope you can appreciate what I am “saying” here…

Peace

 

[LutheranDK]

A true multitude of questions here…

1: “Does this mean that “born again” and other Protestant Christians believe that Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven?”

Answer: If the premise (that JD was born again in prison) holds, so does the conclusion (that he is saved, and awaiting the ressurection to eternal life).

2: “Are his victims in heaven with him?”

Answer: No idea. Were his victims believers?

3: “Is it possible that some of his victims are not in heaven and he is?”

Answer: Most definately yes! If his victims were not believers, then they will not be saved. Even IF you believe in salvation through works, I don’t see how being a murder victim is any kind of “good work”?

4: "Do you agree with this Martin Luther quote? -

“No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.”
“Let Your Sins Be Strong: A Letter from Luther to Melanchthon”.– c.1521) "

Answer: Yes, although you have taken the quote grossly out of context, and Luther as usual brings matters to a head.

5: “I believe that we are judged by our “works”, good and bad. I also believe that a virtuous life does have merit. I do not believe that there exists an automatic “Get out of Hell” card.”

That, of course, is your prerogative. That is not what Scripture teaches, though.

“I believe in God’s infinite mercy and I believe that anything is possible in God; however, I also believe that bad people go to Hell. Jeffrey Dahmer is a bad person so doesn’t that mean that he is in Hell?”

JD is MOST ASSUREDLY a bad person from the normal person’s point of view. Indeed, in everything that is HIM, he is a bad person. Just as you and I are bad persons in everything that is us.
You say that JD is a bad person because of all of the horrible things he did, and you are right.
But what of yourself? Sure, you haven’t killed anyone, tortured anyone, etc, but can you say that you have NEVER violated any of God’s commandments?
No. And I wouldn’t believe you if you did. It is at this point that I would like to remind you that anyone who violates a SINGLE commandment of the Law, is guilty in breaking all of them (James 2:10)
So you (and I) and JD are in the same position. We are sinners, who deserve death and hell if we were truly getting what is coming to us.

But here’s where salvation comes! It comes not from our own goods works (which are always outweighed by our sins regardless of how many good works we have done), but from Christ.
Consider this: If we could truly save ourselves, simply be doing enough good works, then WHY did Christ have to die on that cross? Why did He have to “take away the sins of the world”, if the world could solve the problem of sin on its own?

6: “Additionally, I have read that Jeffrey Dahmer was involved in the Occult, or satanic worship, wouldn’t this behavior, fall under, “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”, the un-forgivable sin?”

Answer: Depends on how you define “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”, and any biblical definition needs to be drawn from the context in which the remark was uttered.

7: “I do not believe that Jeffery Dahmer is in heaven, what do you think?”

Answer: If he came to Christ before he died, then yes. If not, then no. As simple as that…

And now, a question of my own:
Do you honestly believe that Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary is not enough to atone for anyone’s sin? So if someone has lived a worldly life (I’m talking about your average John Doe here, not the Jeffery Dahmers), ignored Christ and the salvation He offers, and lived in sin all their lives, they have no possibility of being saved if they come to Christ on their deathbed?

And if you say: “That’s different! They haven’t done what Jeffery Dahmer has!”, then what you’re saying is that our human morality is what determines who is saved, and not God. Once again: Look to James 2:10, and see that anyone who breaks ONE of the commandments are guilty in breaking them all.

 

[LutheranDK]

If that thought comforts you, then any murderer will go to heaven according to our Lord. That isn’t comforting to me…knowing I could go out and kill someone knowing I’d be in heaven?

That’s not what this means.
Being a murderer doesn’t guarantee you entry to the Kingdom. To say such a thing is utter nonsense, just as saying that being a reasonably good person will guarantee you entry.

What is said is, that anyone who comes to faith in Christ will be saved, regardless of their earlier transgressions.
That is true and biblical, and if that thought causes you discomfort, then it is you who needs to get re-aligned with Scripture.

 

[LutheranDK]

I am sure that the family of Dahmer’s victims, find some comfort in the fact that bad people go to Hell and that good people go to Heaven. Is there anything wrong with that?

Your thoughts?

Peace

If by “wrong”, you mean “unchristian and unscriptural”, then yes indeed. Although understandable (!!!), such a sentiment is far from being Christian. The feelings of a victims family is VERY important for earthly justice, but utterly irrelevant for eternal justice.

What you’re saying is basically this:
When JD appears before the Throne of God, the Lord will say:
“Yes, you did repent and came to faith in Me before you died…but your victims families thought you were a bad person, so therefore: Depart from me, curséd…”

Utter nonsense…

 

[LutheranDK]

It is not a Catholic belief, to “assume” the “salvation” of Dahmer is “guaranteed”, “because he may have been “baptized in a bathtub” (by person who was not a Catholic priest).

I know this wasn’t your main point, but I stumbled across it anyway:

1: Does it matter WHERE the baptism is performed? Does it have to be in a church?

2: I thought that the Roman Catholic church had defined a valid baptism as one that is performed using the trinitarian formula.
Are you now saying that is not so?

Would that mean that IF (!!!) I were to convert to the Roman church, I would have to be baptized again, because I was not baptized by a Roman Catholic priest?

 

[Jimmy_B]

…And now, a question of my own:
Do you honestly believe that Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary is not enough to atone for anyone’s sin? So if someone has lived a worldly life (I’m talking about your average John Doe here, not the Jeffery Dahmers), ignored Christ and the salvation He offers, and lived in sin all their lives, they have no possibility of being saved if they come to Christ on their deathbed?

And if you say: “That’s different! They haven’t done what Jeffery Dahmer has!”, then what you’re saying is that our human morality is what determines who is saved, and not God. Once again: Look to James 2:10, and see that anyone who breaks ONE of the commandments are guilty in breaking them all.

Hello LutheranDK,

Q*.** “Do you honestly believe that Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary is not enough to atone for anyone’s sin?”*

A. No, God has the ability to forgive anyone, including Jeffrey Dahmer, whether He has, or not is unknown.

Q*.** “So if someone has lived a worldly life (I’m talking about your average John Doe here, not the Jeffery Dahmers), ignored Christ and the salvation He offers, and lived in sin all their lives, they have no possibility of being saved if they come to Christ on their deathbed?”*

A. As long as we are alive, we have the hope of salvation

Q*.** "And if you say: “That’s different! They haven’t done what Jeffery Dahmer has!”, then what you’re saying is that our human morality is what determines who is saved, and not God. Once again: Look to James 2:10, and see that anyone who breaks ONE of the commandments are guilty in breaking them all’*

A. That is not what I am saying but I do believe that God does punish the wicked and that there are Saints and people like Jeffrey Dahmer and worse and everything in between.

---

I agree that I am a sinner but as a Roman Catholic, I do not view Salvation in the same way as many Protestants do. There are some who believe that once you are “born-again”, your salvation can never be lost.

---

Now, let me ask you and others here a hypothetical question, this has do with the OSAS belief.

If Jeffrey Dahmer was “born-again” prior to his crime spree and he didn’t repent before his death, will he go to heaven?

Great post…thank you!

 

[allhers]

Nothing that I said in any way, shape or form could have made you possibly think that I was saying that he was a Saint. My point was that many Saints, and I gave the example of the Saints of Our Lady of Fatima, did penance for poor sinners so that they(the sinners) would not have to go to hell.
I have a question for you JimmyB, in your opinion, if someone were Baptised toward the end of their life, even though they had led an “evil life” full of many sins, what possible penance do you think they ought to do in order to show you that they were indeed sincere?

 

[Contarini]

Is Jeffrey Dahmer in Heaven?

Here is an article that claims that Jeffrey Dahmer, the admitted homosexual, who abducted, raped, tortured, murdered and cannibalized many young innocent victims, became a “born-again” Christian while in prison…

Does this mean that “born again” and other Protestant Christians believe that Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven?

Are his victims in heaven with him?

Is it possible that some of his victims are not in heaven and he is?

Do you agree with this Martin Luther quote? -

“No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.”
“Let Your Sins Be Strong: A Letter from Luther to Melanchthon”.– c.1521)

I believe that we are judged by our “works”, good and bad. I also believe that a virtuous life does have merit. I do not believe that there exists an automatic “Get out of Hell” card.

I believe in God’s infinite mercy and I believe that anything is possible in God; however, I also believe that bad people go to Hell. Jeffrey Dahmer is a bad person so doesn’t that mean that he is in Hell?

Not if he repented. That is not a peculiarly Protestant view. That is a basic Christian view which is unquestionably taught by your Church. I urge you to talk to a good priest about this. If you do not believe that repentant sinners are saved, then you don’t believe the Gospel.

Additionally, I have read that Jeffrey Dahmer was involved in the Occult, or satanic worship, wouldn’t this behavior, fall under, “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”, the un-forgivable sin?

No. I am unaware of any church that teaches that participation in the occult or Satan-worship (not the same thing) is the unforgivable sin. I am confident that your Church does not teach this.

I do not believe that Jeffery Dahmer is in heaven, what do you think?

I have no way of knowing. But some Catholic theologians teach that we can hope that everyone will be saved. And almost all Catholics I’ve talked to say that we can hope that any specific individual will be saved.

No sin, no matter how awful, cuts a person off from the possibility of repentance. The “sin against the Holy Spirit” has been interpreted by almost all theologians (Protestant and Catholic) as a hardening of the will in deliberate rejection of the truth, so that the person is no longer capable of repentance. No specific external act–rape, murder, cannibalism, Satan-worship–can be judged to do this. No one can know from observing a person’s behavior if they have done this. Note that the people Jesus was talking to in Matt. 12 were the most respectable and religious members of Jewish society. It has been commonly held by Christians that shocking and monstrous sins may actually be less likely to harden a person against repentance than sins such as pride and self-righteousness. A murderer may find it in some sense easier to recognize the gravity of his sinfulness than a respectable religious person.

This is not antinomianism. It has nothing to do with sola fide. It was basic Christian spiritual teaching long before Luther was born. It does not take away from the need for repentance and purgation. (Obviously if Dahmer was saved, he’d have some serious Purgatory to go through!)

Let me add also that of course a “born-again” profession does not mean that Dahmer is saved. Only God knows the heart.

And yes, it is possible (though I hope not true) that some of his victims are not in heaven.

Edwin

 

[LutheranDK]

This is not antinomianism. It has nothing to do with sola fide. It was basic Christian spiritual teaching long before Luther was born. It does not take away from the need for repentance and purgation. (Obviously if Dahmer was saved, he’d have some serious Purgatory to go through!)

Let me add also that of course a “born-again” profession does not mean that Dahmer is saved. Only God knows the heart.
Edwin

1; Luther was no antinomianist.

2: If he came to faith, and was baptized, I thought that baptism washes the slate clean? In that case, none of his sins from his earlier life can be considered - because it’s as if they were never there in the first place.

3: I don’t know where this obsession with Purgatory comes from…the idea seems to have a very human origin, and it is backed nowhere in Scripture.

3: IF Dahmer had indeed come to Christ before, then yes: He is saved. Period.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

1; Luther was no antinomianist.

2: If he came to faith, and was baptized, I thought that baptism washes the slate clean? In that case, none of his sins from his earlier life can be considered - because it’s as if they were never there in the first place.

3: I don’t know where this obsession with Purgatory comes from…the idea seems to have a very human origin, and it is backed nowhere in Scripture.

3: IF Dahmer had indeed come to Christ before, then yes: He is saved. Period.

Mercy… Justice… Thus, purgatory.

If you don’t see the progression, read up on “purgatory”, and “purgatory”.

If you don’t accept purgatory, expect, as I do (for other reasons), to spend some serious “time” there.

 

[LutheranDK]

Mercy… Justice… Thus, purgatory.

If you don’t see the progression, read up on “purgatory”, and “purgatory”.

If you don’t accept purgatory, expect, as I do (for other reasons), to spend some serious “time” there.

And the last shall be the first - the second link leads to some kind of search engine

Now, I do follow the progression from the reasons presented on the working link, BUT ONLY if the following premise is true:

Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary did not atone for ALL of our sins.

If this is true, then it would seem to follow that we have to serve some time in some kind of cleansing place (although why that would have to be a place that is close to hell does NOT follow), but if that premise is not true, then neither is the conclusion.

And I am not particularly impressed by referring to pagan and rabbinical Jewish beliefs prior to the advent of Christendom. That actually seems to me to strengthen my position: That the doctrine of purgatory is wholly human in origin.

And referring to the Apocrypha does not impress me either. These writings do contain some good, and can be good to read, but they’re also full of anachronisms and contradictions; and that diminishes their value quite significantly, and makes them UTTERLY unusable for formulating doctrines.

I expect to serve NO time in “purgatory”. I expect, as Scripture promises me, to be on Earth one moment, and before the Throne of God, hearing those blesséd words “Well done, thou good and faithful servant. Enter thou into the joy of thy Lord” the next.