Is Jeffrey Dahmer in Heaven?

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Now, I do follow the progression from the reasons presented on the working link, BUT ONLY if the following premise is true:

Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary did not atone for ALL of our sins.
As I said, do your own research.

I will say this, though, in regards to your statement above:

What do you mean by “atone”? Christ made it possible for us to enter heaven, after “cleaning up”, but we must accept that our path to heaven must be walked by us, and that we must be perfect in reality by being “scrubbed”, and not just “supplied with a pretty robe that hides our imperfection”, to actually enter heaven.

Should you choose to simply think that the stench under the pretty robe won’t be noticed, that’s fine, but the proof is in the pudding! Best of luck with your partial understanding, most probably not culpably held due to your history, of the deposit of faith in it’s fullness, and the effects resulting from that lack of understanding.
 
If this is true, then it would seem to follow that we have to serve some time in some kind of cleansing place (although why that would have to be a place that is close to hell does NOT follow), but if that premise is not true, then neither is the conclusion.

And I am not particularly impressed by referring to pagan and rabbinical Jewish beliefs prior to the advent of Christendom. That actually seems to me to strengthen my position: That the doctrine of purgatory is wholly human in origin.
Heaven, as a destination for men, did not exist before Christ “opened it”.

Before Christ there was sheol/hades. The big “holding bin”, which held nicer neighborhoods than others, apparently, but which was not “heaven” as Christ created for us later. Those in that “holding bin” could be prayed for, and that show of mercy for them influenced the mercy shown them by God, if they chose to accept it of course, when heaven was opened for them when heaven became available for occupancy.

Your position is starting to sound a BIT like a variety of the Marcionite heresy, which shouldn’t be overly suprising considering Luther’s anti-semitism.
 
And the last shall be the first - the second link leads to some kind of search engine 🙂

Now, I do follow the progression from the reasons presented on the working link, BUT ONLY if the following premise is true:

Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary did not atone for ALL of our sins.
Christ’s death on the Cross, together with His resurrection and His bodily ascension into Heaven, made it possible for us to be cleansed of our sins, to break the bonds of death, and for human beings to be able to go to Heaven.

Obviously, the Crucifixion itself did not automatically cleanse the world of sins; otherwise, we wouldn’t still be dealing with it, today.

What happens is that the benefits of the Crucifixion are applied when we respond to it and do certain things. This isn’t salvation by works; these actions that we do are the actions of faith - being baptized, going to Confession, praying, participating in the Sacraments, etc. - all these things are ways of applying Christ’s atoning Sacrifice to our own situation.

One might ask, why should we need to do that? Shouldn’t Christ’s Sacrifice, all by itself, be enough to cleanse the whole world of sin, without us taking any action at all?

One could argue that it should, but one is arguing against the front page of every serious newspaper in the world - sin is still in the world, so we can conclude from that that the Crucifixion does not, in fact, do all the cleansing, all by itself - that we do, in fact, have to respond to it, in order to complete the circuit.
If this is true, then it would seem to follow that we have to serve some time in some kind of cleansing place (although why that would have to be a place that is close to hell does NOT follow), but if that premise is not true, then neither is the conclusion.
Purgatory is just part of our continuing response to the Crucifixion. Most of us do not become perfectly without sin during this lifetime. (If the Crucifixion worked automatically, then we would become incapable of sin at the instant of baptism. We don’t.)
And referring to the Apocrypha does not impress me either. These writings do contain some good, and can be good to read, but they’re also full of anachronisms and contradictions; and that diminishes their value quite significantly, and makes them UTTERLY unusable for formulating doctrines.
I would say the same about many of the books that are in the primary canon, as well - for example, the Book of Daniel can’t seem to figure out which King was in charge at that period of time. In any case, we don’t use the Bible to formulate doctrine - that’s what the Magisterium and the Holy Tradition are for.
I expect to serve NO time in “purgatory”. I expect, as Scripture promises me, to be on Earth one moment, and before the Throne of God, hearing those blesséd words “Well done, thou good and faithful servant. Enter thou into the joy of thy Lord” the next.
Do you expect to be completely perfected during this lifetime, then? (Do you believe that you are, at this moment, incapable of committing sin?) Or on what basis do you expect to be told, “Well done, good and faithful servant”?

It is only when we have become incapable of committing sin that we will be allowed to enter Heaven. Christ has made this possible, but He has in no way guaranteed it with regard to specific individuals. He has guaranteed that some will be in Heaven, but we don’t know specifically that it will be us, in particular.
 
Aren’t there OSAS “Born-again Christians”, who believe that baptism is not required for Salvation and that, once a person recites the “sinners prayer”, they are from that point on, forever, or “always Saved”, regardless of any sins committed…after having been “Saved”?

**Some then, would believe that if Jeffrey Dahmer was “Saved”, prior to his crimes (sins), his was still “Saved”, because a “Saved Christian cannot be separated from God for any sin, including murder”; as the previous Luther quote here, indicates. **

OSAS = Guaranteed Salvation…right?
 
Is Jeffrey Dahmer in Heaven?

Here is an article that claims that Jeffrey Dahmer, the admitted homosexual, who abducted, raped, tortured, murdered and cannibalized many young innocent victims, became a “born-again” Christian while in prison…

Does this mean that “born again” and other Protestant Christians believe that Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven?

Are his victims in heaven with him?

Is it possible that some of his victims are not in heaven and he is?

Do you agree with this Martin Luther quote? -

“No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.”
Let Your Sins Be Strong: A Letter from Luther to Melanchthon”.– c.1521)

I believe that we are judged by our “works”, good and bad. I also believe that a virtuous life does have merit. I do not believe that there exists an automatic “Get out of Hell” card.

I believe in God’s infinite mercy and I believe that anything is possible in God; however, I also believe that bad people go to Hell. Jeffrey Dahmer is a bad person so doesn’t that mean that he is in Hell?

Additionally, I have read that Jeffrey Dahmer was involved in the Occult, or satanic worship, wouldn’t this behavior, fall under, “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”, the un-forgivable sin?

I do not believe that Jeffery Dahmer is in heaven, what do you think?
I think that God not only has unfathomable mercy, that we can’t relate to, because we only know mercy on a human level; but I have a feeling that God shows even more mercy to those who are mentally ill in this life. Jeffrey Dahmer, (not excusing his actions) was a deeply mentally disturbed person. Only he and God know his heart, as another poster said–but in hearing him in interviews, shortly after his conviction, he just seemed to lack emotion, or passion. Just seemed like a void was present when the interviewer was speaking with him. He would respond very mechanically, and I really believe that someone with mental illness doesn’t fully grasp evil. I could be way off the mark, but he just struck me as someone who was either possessed or mentally ill. But, regardless–he could have found Christ in jail, and confessed his sins to Him, and asked for forgiveness. He could have been truly contrite, mulling over his past sins, and in doing so, could have eternal life–just like another person who lived a life of holiness and piety. The thief on the cross next to Christ, in his dying moment–was contrite and basically decided to believe in Christ as Lord, at that final moment. And we read how Jesus responded.

It is hard to grasp. This passage sort of sums it all up. (Matthew 20: 1-16) Jesus’ point–even if you show up at the last minute asking for forgiveness…salvation is entirely possible.
 
Ah, yes, but we also believe that true repentance of sin overrides any sins that we’ve committed. While he committed atrocities up the wazoo, if he truly did repent, was truly contrite and truly intended to live a better life for the remainder of his life, then it’s very likely that he’s in heaven.

However, God doesn’t let us know who makes the cut and who doesn’t. We may see him in Heaven, we may not.
 
(Obviously if Dahmer was saved, he’d have some serious Purgatory to go through!)
If I recall, you are Episcopalian. Does this statement snipped above represent a difference in understanding about what baptism can do between Anglican and Catholic thinking? Could you expound for a moment about what you meant? I’ll take this opportunity to post some stuff about what the Catholic Church teaches about the effects of baptism.

Baptism validly and worthily received remits the whole deal, temporal and eternal. So if you die right after, you go straight to heaven. Zero purgatory. Council of Trent in the context of talking about baptsim, session V, bolding added:
For in those who are born again God hates nothing, because there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism unto death,[18] who walk not according to the flesh,[19] but, putting off the old man and putting on the new one who is created according to God,[20] are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, joint heirs with Christ;[21] so that there is nothing whatever to hinder their entrance into heaven.
And CCC, italics original
**1263 **By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.
At that time that we receive the Holy Spirit and are born anew, it does seem to me that the person is off scott-free by typical measurements for anything done previously.
 
In response to this:
I expect to serve NO time in “purgatory”. I expect, as Scripture promises me, to be on Earth one moment, and before the Throne of God, hearing those blesséd words “Well done, thou good and faithful servant. Enter thou into the joy of thy Lord” the next.
jmcrae, you wrote this:
Do you expect to be completely perfected during this lifetime, then? (Do you believe that you are, at this moment, incapable of committing sin?) Or on what basis do you expect to be told, “Well done, good and faithful servant”?

It is only when we have become incapable of committing sin that we will be allowed to enter Heaven.
It seems you might be trying to say that by the end of our stay in Purgatory we are perfected, which seems by the context in which you use it with parenthetical remarks to possibly relate in your mind to being unable to sin. What did you actually mean about perfection and inability to sin?
 
Aren’t there OSAS “Born-again Christians”, who believe that baptism is not required for Salvation and that, once a person recites the “sinners prayer”, they are from that point on, forever, or “always Saved”, regardless of any sins committed…after having been “Saved”?

**Some then, would believe that if Jeffrey Dahmer was “Saved”, prior to his crimes (sins), his was still “Saved”, because a “Saved Christian cannot be separated from God for any sin, including murder”; as the previous Luther quote here, indicates. **

OSAS = Guaranteed Salvation…right?
Now I have to jump in, that is a gross misrepresentation of the doctrine of Eternal Security. Not surprising since both groups do such a good job at misrepresenting the other side, imagine if one group actually tried to understand the doctrines of the other. Half of these threads would die.

In Eternal Security (OSAS is a put down) when a person is saved by Christ he/she becomes a new creation as St. Paul writes. Now the person no longer has a desire to do such things like Dalmer did, if they did then they would never be saved to begin with.

Gotquestions.org explains it much better:
 
**Question: “Is eternal security a “license” to sin?”
Answer: ** The most frequent objection to the doctrine of eternal security is that it supposedly promotes the idea that Christians can live any way that they want to - and still be saved. While this is “technically” true, that is not the “essence” of eternal security. A person who has truly accepted Jesus Christ as his or her Savior “can” live a sinful life - but he or she “will” not do so. We must draw a distinction between how a Christian should live - and what a person must do in order to receive salvation.
The Bible is abundantly clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; John 14:6). A person is saved by faith - faith alone. The moment a person truly believes in Jesus Christ, he/she is saved and secure in that salvation. It is not that salvation is gained by faith, but then maintained by works. The Apostle Paul addresses this issue in Galatians 3:3, “Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?” If we are saved by faith, our salvation is also maintained and secured by faith. We cannot earn our own salvation. Therefore, we cannot earn the maintenance of our salvation either. It is God who maintains our salvation (Jude verse 24). It is God’s hand that holds us firmly in His grasp (John 10:28-29). It is God’s love that nothing can separate us from (Romans 8:38-39).
Any denial of eternal security is, in its essence, a belief that we must maintain our own salvation by our own good works. This is completely antithetical to salvation by grace. We are saved because of Christ’s merits, not our own (Romans 4:3-8). To claim that we must obey God’s Word or live a godly life to maintain our salvation is equal to saying that Jesus’ death was not sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins. Jesus’ death was absolutely sufficient to pay for all of our sins - past, present, and future, pre-salvation and post-salvation (Romans 5:8; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 2 Corinthians 5:21).
So, with all that said, does this mean that a Christian can live any way he/she wants to and still be saved? This is essentially a hypothetical question, because the Bible makes it clear that a true Christian will not live “any way he/she wants to.” Christians are new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17). Christians demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), not the acts of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21). 1 John 3:6-9 clearly states that a true Christian will not live in continual sin. In response to the accusation that grace promotes sin, the Apostle Paul declared, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1-2).
Eternal security is not a “license” to sin. Rather, it is the security of knowing that God’s love is guaranteed for those who trust in Christ. Knowing and understanding God’s tremendous gift of salvation accomplishes the opposite of giving a “license” to sin. How could anyone, knowing the price Jesus Christ paid for us, go on to live a life of sin (Romans 6:15-23)? How could anyone who understands God’s unconditional and guaranteed love for those who believe, take that love and throw it back in God’s face? Such a person is demonstrating not that eternal security has given him or her a license to sin, but rather that he or she has not truly experienced salvation through Jesus Christ. “No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him” (1 John 3:6).
Source

If we on both sides are going to understand the other than it would behoove us to understand each other instead of spitting garbage out.
 
BUT ONLY if the following premise is true:

Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary did not atone for ALL of our sins.

If this is true, then it would seem to follow that we have to serve some time in some kind of cleansing place (although why that would have to be a place that is close to hell does NOT follow), but if that premise is not true, then neither is the conclusion.
I think you are rather implying that you believe that Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary did atone of ALL of our sins. 🙂 So, assuming that premise, why do lots of believers still experience death? I ask because usually Christians think something along the lines that death is a consequence or punishment or wages from sin.
 
Although I am Protestant, the idea of purgatory makes sense to me.
I have no idea the state of Dahmer’s heart-however-
IF he was genuinely sincere of accepting Christ as his Lord and Savior, was baptized in the name of the Triune God and did his best to follow Christ the short remainder of his life- then Yes, I believe he was saved.
he would probably suffer in something like purgatory until the end of earth time.
I believe the Lord turns no-one away IF they sincerely want to turn to him and be saved.
 
I think everyone thinks of God as the merciful God. But what about the Just God?
 

Eternal security is not a “license” to sin. Rather, it is the security of knowing that God’s love is guaranteed for those who trust in Christ. Knowing and understanding God’s tremendous gift of salvation accomplishes the opposite of giving a “license” to sin. How could anyone, knowing the price Jesus Christ paid for us, go on to live a life of sin (Romans 6:15-23)? How could anyone who understands God’s unconditional and guaranteed love for those who believe, take that love and throw it back in God’s face? Such a person is demonstrating not that eternal security has given him or her a license to sin, but rather that he or she has not truly experienced salvation through Jesus Christ. “No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him” (1 John 3:6).

If we on both sides are going to understand the other than it would behoove us to understand each other instead of spitting garbage out.
To one who accepts the above, ANYONE can SAY they are saved, but the proof is in the pudding, at death.

To one who accepts what the Church says, ANYONE can SAY they are saved, but the proof is in the pudding, at death.

How INTERESTING! Precisely the same thing!

The non-Catholic is allowed to say they are saved, with an implied “someday hopefully!” tacked on the end.

The Catholic is not allowed to say they are saved, with an implied “but I hopefully may well be someday!” tacked onto the end.

I’m apparently in an uncharacteristically charitable mood at the moment. 🙂
 
In Eternal Security (OSAS is a put down) when a person is saved by Christ he/she becomes a new creation as St. Paul writes. Now the person no longer has a desire to do such things like Dalmer did, if they did then they would never be saved to begin with.
By “eternal security” what exactly do you mean? It sounds like you do not mean what some do by the term. Some mean that the works that you see yourself doing after you become a Christian do not reflect your underlying status. You seem to be saying that if a person who considers himself Christian notices himself having urges to do sins, then the “Christian” is in fact not one, and never was. So, for you “eternal security” contains no information about a personal knowledge of your predestination, or, maybe, doesn’t reflect knowledge of your membership in the group of the elect to heaven. Sorry, I’m probably mixing terms that mean different things in different groups. “Predestination” and “elect” can have very specific meanings.
 
I am not assuming anyone’s “final judgment”; I am coming to a reasonable conclusion. I believe that there is a good chance that Dahmer is in Hell and I am comforted by the fact that God is both Just and Merciful.
I am truly disturbed by the fact that you are “comforted” by the thought that a soul is suffering in Hell, a soul bought and paid for by our Lord and loved dearly by Him, and yet you still call yourself a Catholic. IF Jeffery Dahmer is in Hell right now, you can bet your bottom that our Lord is not comforted by it. He grieves for EVERY SINGLE SOUL that is lost…no matter how “bad” they were.

I would be very, very careful about questioning or judging another persons conversion and repentence. Maybe you should look up the passage about removing the plank out of your own eye before worrying about somebody else.
 
By “eternal security” what exactly do you mean? It sounds like you do not mean what some do by the term. Some mean that the works that you see yourself doing after you become a Christian do not reflect your underlying status. You seem to be saying that if a person who considers himself Christian notices himself having urges to do sins, then the “Christian” is in fact not one, and never was. So, for you “eternal security” contains no information about a personal knowledge of your predestination, or, maybe, doesn’t reflect knowledge of your membership in the group of the elect to heaven. Sorry, I’m probably mixing terms that mean different things in different groups. “Predestination” and “elect” can have very specific meanings.
No, in the Eternal Security doctrine a Christian won’t even have an urge to sin. Predestination means in this that God decides who does and does not get saved and the elect are the saved ones.

Basically you have to wait to the end like in Catholicism
 
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