Is Jeffrey Dahmer in Heaven?

[Pug]

No, in the Eternal Security doctrine a Christian won’t even have an urge to sin. Predestination means in this that God decides who does and does not get saved and the elect are the saved ones.

Basically you have to wait to the end like in Catholicism

Okay, so you mean that the elect are the elect, but they don’t know who they are until they die and find out. Often people who do voluntarily describe themselves as OSAS (I know that is not you) express serious concern about the salvation of Catholics specifically because Catholics typically say you have to wait until the end to find out if you are one of the elect. So, I’m glad I asked you.

Also, you mean an elect person won’t sin, at least, not after the moment of rebirth.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Dahmer is in hell, and he’s probably a main course.

Ooh ooh…now you’ve started it…:doh2:

Just as I was beginning to get em settled down…

I had em… right where I wanted em and….BAM… you did this :whacky:

Did you post this to take some heat off of me? .

I owe you one…

 

[historyb]

Okay, so you mean that the elect are the elect, but they don’t know who they are until they die and find out. Often people who do voluntarily describe themselves as OSAS (I know that is not you) express serious concern about the salvation of Catholics specifically because Catholics typically say you have to wait until the end to find out if you are one of the elect. So, I’m glad I asked you.

Also, you mean an elect person won’t sin, at least, not after the moment of rebirth.

Yes the way I remember it.

 

[jmcrae]

It seems you might be trying to say that by the end of our stay in Purgatory we are perfected, which seems by the context in which you use it with parenthetical remarks to possibly relate in your mind to being unable to sin. What did you actually mean about perfection and inability to sin?

That while in theory, like Mother Mary, we might choose to sin, it is so far from our minds to do so that it would simply never happen, because of our perfected love for God and for our fellow human beings.

Do you believe there is anyone in Heaven who is actually capable of committing sin (even though they have perfect freedom, and in theory, they could)?

This is the state we have entered into, when we are admitted into Heaven.

 

[Valke2]

Ooh ooh…now you’ve started it…:doh2:

Just as I was beginning to get em settled down…

I had em… right where I wanted em and….BAM… you did this :whacky:

Did you post this to take some heat off of me? .

I owe you one…

I’m happy he mayk have repented and I hope his actions brought some peace to the victim’s families. And I’m sure that God’s justice will win out over His mercy in this instance, and Mr. Dhamer is still paying for the fruits of his labor.

 

[Publisher]

I’m happy he mayk have repented and I hope his actions brought some peace to the victim’s families. And I’m sure that God’s justice will win out over His mercy in this instance, and Mr. Dhamer is still paying for the fruits of his labor.

While I wonder why so many believe the “justice” of God and His “mercy” are opposed to one another, I have no doubt God and God alone, in His wisdom, mercy, love and justice knows what’s best and will act and decide alone as the Judge of the Living and the Dead. His Mercy endures forever, in Him justice and mercy are met, there is no conflict between the two…only in our finite minds do we find conflict…we have a different idea of “justice” than God does…just like we have a different idea of mercy it seems.

It is God’s decision and His alone, I don’t think He’ll be considering our opinion in the matter.

 

[Valke2]

While I wonder why so many believe the “justice” of God and His “mercy” are opposed to one another, I have no doubt God and God alone, in His wisdom, mercy, love and justice knows what’s best and will act and decide alone as the Judge of the Living and the Dead. His Mercy endures forever, in Him justice and mercy are met, there is no conflict between the two…only in our finite minds do we find conflict…we have a different idea of “justice” than God does…just like we have a different idea of mercy it seems.

It is God’s decision and His alone, I don’t think He’ll be considering our opinion in the matter.

Infinite Justice and Infinite Mercy are a paradox. They necessarily have to be opposed to each other. I agree that this is only according to our finite minds.

 

[Holly3278]

It is possible but it is also unlikely. But in truth, I have no idea.

 

[goofyjim]

I have no idea if Jeff “the Chef” Dahmer made it to Heaven.

This, of course, is something we cannot know.

We must recall that both God’s mercy and His justice are infinite.

And that mercy triumphs over judgement.

 

[Publisher]

Infinite Justice and Infinite Mercy are a paradox. They necessarily have to be opposed to each other. I agree that this is only according to our finite minds.

Justice and Mercy embraced one another at the cross.

 

[Pug]

That while in theory, like Mother Mary, we might choose to sin, it is so far from our minds to do so that it would simply never happen, because of our perfected love for God and for our fellow human beings.

Do you believe there is anyone in Heaven who is actually capable of committing sin (even though they have perfect freedom, and in theory, they could)?

This is the state we have entered into, when we are admitted into Heaven.

About Our Lady, I don’t think she can sin now, but she could have before, only she didn’t.

So, no, I don’t think we are capable of sin in heaven. Typically, though, I would have attributed that to the beatific vision, and not perfection. So, you are probably wondering why I asked, then. In reading your post, I realized I lacked some kind of knowledge, and now that I have read your response to my post, I realize that a piece of my problem is that I don’t know if the souls in Purgatory are capable of sinning. Previously, I would have simply said that once we die, all possibility of merit or demerit ceases. Since this happens at death, I would have offhandedly said the poor souls couldn’t sin, or otherwise, they would start demeriting. But now that I think about it, they do pray and stuff, but this has no merit. So if they can do good stuff like pray, can they do bad stuff like sin? And, if it weren’t for the beatific vision, could we sin in heaven? You seem to hint that perfection of charity is not enough to protect us.

I’m just curious, and not trying to be a pest.

 

[Jimmy_B]

…Do you believe there is anyone in Heaven who is actually capable of committing sin (even though they have perfect freedom, and in theory, they could)?

This is the state we have entered into, when we are admitted into Heaven.

Isn’t this all taken care of… and straightened-out in purgatory… before we go to heaven?

Peace

 

[jmcrae]

Isn’t this all taken care of… and straightened-out in purgatory… before we go to heaven?

Peace

I was responding to someone who was saying that he goes from his sinful state here on this earth directly into Heaven, with no purification process.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I was responding to someone who was saying that he goes from his sinful state here on this earth directly into Heaven, with no purification process.

Ooh, ok…thanks!

 

[LutheranDK]

Heaven, as a destination for men, did not exist before Christ “opened it”.

Before Christ there was sheol/hades. The big “holding bin”, which held nicer neighborhoods than others, apparently, but which was not “heaven” as Christ created for us later. Those in that “holding bin” could be prayed for, and that show of mercy for them influenced the mercy shown them by God, if they chose to accept it of course, when heaven was opened for them when heaven became available for occupancy.

Your position is starting to sound a BIT like a variety of the Marcionite heresy, which shouldn’t be overly suprising considering Luther’s anti-semitism.

I could reply that you sound like a pharisee, wanting to save yourself through the Law, but why don’t we stop calling each other names and act like adults?

If there is ONE thing I will not be accused of, either directly or indirectly, it is anti-semitism. Especially not by a Roman-Catholic!
Luther wrote a horrible piece of anti-semitism some 3 years before his death, when he was probably going senile. The Roman-Catholic church has practised anti-semitism (more or less violently) since its birth. Now, which one of us has the bigger justification to make?

 

[Contarini]

If I recall, you are Episcopalian. Does this statement snipped above represent a difference in understanding about what baptism can do between Anglican and Catholic thinking?

No. The opposite is true. Anglicans have historically affirmed some form of baptismal regeneration (though the more low-church folks try to water it down or explain it away), but have rejected Purgatory.

I was trying to avoid the whole question of baptism vs. repentance, given my lack of clear knowledge as to Dahmer’s status (OK, he was baptized, but we don’t know that he was not baptized before). I was responding to JimmyB’s sense of outrage that Dahmer might go to heaven, and trying to acknowledge that of course his actions had consequences. As you point out, I was actually granting JimmyB too much–the Catholic position (with regards to previously unbaptized sinners) is even closer to the “born-again” position Jimmy is attacking than I was claiming!

I do have some problems with the idea that Dahmer would go straight to heaven if he hadn’t been baptized as an infant, but would have to go to Purgatory if he had. But if anything, this discomfort would lead me to question Purgatory (which I consider to be a probable opinion only) and not baptismal regeneration (which is the clear teaching of Scripture).

In short, you are right to call me on this, though I did think of the issue and ignored it in order to keep things simple.

Edwin

 

[LutheranDK]

"Christ’s death on the Cross, together with His resurrection and His bodily ascension into Heaven, made it possible for us to be cleansed of our sins, to break the bonds of death, and for human beings to be able to go to Heaven.

Obviously, the Crucifixion itself did not automatically cleanse the world of sins; otherwise, we wouldn’t still be dealing with it, today."

That is not what I meant either, and not what the Bible teaches. Those who believe in the resurrected Christ are saved, because His death on Calvary atoned for their sins. ALL of them.
He paid the price, so we don’t have to. Now, does this mean that sin’s temporal consequence are annulled?
No. THAT much is obvious. Becoming a Christian does not make you sinless. Neither from day one, or on day 36500, or however many days you get. But it means that when God looks at you, He sees not your sin, but the justification Jesus won for you.
Simul justus et peccator.

“What happens is that the benefits of the Crucifixion are applied when we respond to it and do certain things. This isn’t salvation by works; these actions that we do are the actions of faith - being baptized, going to Confession, praying, participating in the Sacraments, etc. - all these things are ways of applying Christ’s atoning Sacrifice to our own situation.”

But none of these good works are in fact good works, if one does not have faith. Because I don’t think you’re saying that people who don’t have faith can’t do these things?
At the moment you accept Christ, you are completely justified before God, and should you drop dead that instant, you will enter the Kingdom of Heaven just as certainly as he who has been a believer and fought the fight of faith for decades.

So, what I’m saying is: You are totally justified (made righteous) by faith alone.
But true faith leads to growth in holiness, to an increase in the manifestations of the fruits of the Spirit.
It is the sequence that is crucial here:

First: Get saved. That means: Accept Jesus (and I won’t go into what THAT means, since I assume you know…)
THEN: Grow in imitation of Christ, which, among other things, means: Do good deeds, attend service, etc.

"One might ask, why should we need to do that? Shouldn’t Christ’s Sacrifice, all by itself, be enough to cleanse the whole world of sin, without us taking any action at all?

One could argue that it should, but one is arguing against the front page of every serious newspaper in the world - sin is still in the world, so we can conclude from that that the Crucifixion does not, in fact, do all the cleansing, all by itself - that we do, in fact, have to respond to it, in order to complete the circuit. "

What you and I need to get saved is to accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and put our trust in Him, and in Him alone.
It is from THIS point that all growth in holiness MUST come.
When I said that Calvary took away the sins of the world, I did not mean that all sin immediately disappeared. The worst part is that I suspect you knew this.
What I meant was, that for those who accept Jesus, ALL their sins are lifted from their shoulders. Its as if they were never there in the first place. This is not only true for the sins they committed BEFORE they came to faith, but also the present sins, and those committed for the rest of their lives, till the Lord returns, or calls them home.

 

[LutheranDK]

“Purgatory is just part of our continuing response to the Crucifixion. Most of us do not become perfectly without sin during this lifetime. (If the Crucifixion worked automatically, then we would become incapable of sin at the instant of baptism. We don’t.)”

NOONE become perfect in this lifetime. It is simply not possible. If it was possible - why should Christ die? We could just have tried harder to save ourselves.
Perfection in this lifetime is impossible. Because perfection is not only saying the right prayers at the right times, abstaining from the right foods at the right times, and fight against sin.
Perfection is NOT SINNING AT ALL, period. No human being since Christ has ever achieved this. Even the greatest “saints” were not perfect. Yes, many of them are indeed worthy examples for us to imitate. Undoubtedly! But none were perfect.
Your statemtent that Calvary should make us unable to sin is on your own account. It does not follow from anything I have said.

“I would say the same about many of the books that are in the primary canon, as well - for example, the Book of Daniel can’t seem to figure out which King was in charge at that period of time.”

There are very good reasons to believe that those two are two different names for the same person.

“In any case, we don’t use the Bible to formulate doctrine - that’s what the Magisterium and the Holy Tradition are for.”

And that is one of the most disturbing things about the Roman-Catholic church from where I’m sitting. The word of God is unworthy to base doctrine upon…but the words of men, who can err, are.
There can be nothing above Scripture as the basis for Christian doctrine.

“Do you expect to be completely perfected during this lifetime, then? (Do you believe that you are, at this moment, incapable of committing sin?)”

Nope. As I said earlier in this post, I would be lying to myself, and God more importantly!, if I said that I in my own right and from my own efforts could become perfect. If I indeed could that, I would essentially be telling Jesus: “I don’t really need you”.
But when the sentence for my sins have been served by someone else (Christ), then I will be aquitted. The sins are gone, just as surely as if they had never been there in the first place.

“Or on what basis do you expect to be told, “Well done, good and faithful servant”?” "

On the basis that when God looks at me, He sees not what I am in myself, or my own deeds. If He did, I would be hopelessly lost, as would every single human being; from Mother Teresa to Jeffrey Dahmer.
What God will see, however, when I stand before His throne is Jesus. What Jesus has done for me, and that I lived and died on that hope that Christ called me to, and assured for me.
In short: God will see perfection when He looks at me. Not my own perfection that I made for myself, but the perfection of Christ that He granted me when I accepted Him.

“It is only when we have become incapable of committing sin that we will be allowed to enter Heaven.”

And that day will come for the believers when the Lord returns. Those who have died in the Lord will rise to eternal life, and the believers who are left will be transformed in an instant.

“Christ has made this possible, but He has in no way guaranteed it with regard to specific individuals. He has guaranteed that some will be in Heaven, but we don’t know specifically that it will be us, in particular.”

We can know that IF WE hold fast until the end, then we WILL be saved. Scriptura locuta est, causa finita est.

 

[Pong]

You want to stop calling us the “Roman Catholic” Church, please, LDK? We are the Catholic Church. Period.

 

[Pug]

No. The opposite is true.

Thanks, Edwin.