Is Jesus as God Unhalacha?

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In another thread:
Valke2 said:
Back to the origional question. It seems that if the apostles observed the Jewish law/Torah, then we have to conclude that they did not believe Jesus was God. As this would be deal breaker under the Halacha.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha

This was not the original reason that so many Jews rejected Jesus, that had rather to do with whether or not he was the Messiah, but it is certainly a popular objection today.

Quite frankly, I have never understood this objection. Clearly God’s incarnation as Jesus is a big deal and a great mystery. But it doesn’t strike me as contrary to Jewish understanding of God.

So I would be curious to hear a rational explanation of this objection.
 
I agree. How does observing Jewish laws have anything to do with believing that Jesus was the son of God?
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
In another thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha

This was not the original reason that so many Jews rejected Jesus, that had rather to do with whether or not he was the Messiah, but it is certainly a popular objection today.

Quite frankly, I have never understood this objection. Clearly God’s incarnation as Jesus is a big deal and a great mystery. But it doesn’t strike me as contrary to Jewish understanding of God.

So I would be curious to hear a rational explanation of this objection.
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Bubba Halakha includes all Jewish laws both Biblical and Rabbinical. Some Jews argue that Rabbinical law is equal to Biblical law and others say it’s subordinate to it. So for instance if you look at why Jews don’t offer animal sacrifices for the atonement of sin, we know it’s because the Temple has been destroyed. Of course as Christians we believe Christ was the final sacrificial lamb but Jews don’t believe this. Unless they have converted to Christianity.

When the Temple was destroyed a Rabbinical tradition started that stated sacrifices were not needed to atone for sin because other means to do this were acceptable to GOD. Hosea 6:6 and other passages like it have been cited to justify this position. Of course this is now Rabbinical law.

Valke2 is referring to the Biblical and Rabbinical teaching that GOD is one. One being singular. Jesus claim to be the son of GOD and GOD incarnate violates, mind you as the Jews teach, Rabbinical and Biblical teachings of GOD as being singular. Valke2 can certainly correct me if I’m wrong on his implications 🙂
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
I agree. How does observing Jewish laws have anything to do with believing that Jesus was the son of God?
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Because an essential Jewish understanding of God is that God is incorporeal and that He is not and never was a man.
 
Valke2 said:
Because an essential Jewish understanding of God is that God is incorporeal and that He is not and never was a man.
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Was this true at the time of Jesus, or is it a later teaching? If it were true in Jesus’ time, then was it explicitly codified as you have put it? If so, is there any Biblical evidence?
 
Valke2 said:
Because an essential Jewish understanding of God is that God is incorporeal and that He is not and never was a man.
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Christians have very interesting understanding on this.

Some believe that God was never a man but he only ‘‘manifested’’ himself into a man . Taking proof that God ''manifested himself ‘’ into the burning bush . Based on ‘‘God can do anything’’ concept.

Others believe that this whole verse that God is not a man is related to the occasion of the verse itself where God wants to prove that he does not lie . So god said in the verse that ‘’ I am not a man for i do not lie’’ . Thus not prohibiting him from being a man as long as he doesn’t lie.

Interesting to hear what is your take on this.

Meedo
 
Valke2 said:
Because an essential Jewish understanding of God is that God is incorporeal and that He is not and never was a man.
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we agree on this. We do not believe God is a physical entity nor that God is a man. Is there a Jewish understanding saying that God cannot take a physical shape?
 
Atreyu said:
Was this true at the time of Jesus, or is it a later teaching? If it were true in Jesus’ time, then was it explicitly codified as you have put it? If so, is there any Biblical evidence?
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Yes. Jews beleive God is eternal and outside time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form diminishes Him (we believe). Numbers 23:19 confirms that God is not a man.

However, there are also several instances in the Torah where God is described as walking, dwelling in a specific place, speaking, etc. So it is not as if one could not point to verse to support the assertion that God could be corporeal. And it would be wrong to assert that Jews never believed (incorrectly according to Jewish law) that God was a physical being. Rambam wrote an entire book that was devoted to the concept of God being incorporeal to address this error.

So, at the time of Jesus I would say that Judaism rejected the belief that God could be a man but that many “lay Jews” likely held the impression that God to the physical form of some superppowerful being. After all, it is difficult to hold the concept of a nonphysical, all powerful od in one’s imagination. We tend to give God physical attributes, at least in our mind, because it makes it easier to grasp the concept of Divinity. Although definind Divinity through the use of a physical being, IMO and according to Judaism, limits God and therefore is a faulty definition.

Of course, any concept applied to an Infinite Omnipotent being must necessarily be faulty because we, as finite beings bound in time are not capable of fully conceptualizing the Infinite.
 
meedo said:
Christians have very interesting understanding on this.

Some believe that God was never a man but he only ‘‘manifested’’ himself into a man . Taking proof that God ''manifested himself ‘’ into the burning bush . Based on ‘‘God can do anything’’ concept.

Others believe that this whole verse that God is not a man is related to the occasion of the verse itself where God wants to prove that he does not lie . So god said in the verse that ‘’ I am not a man for i do not lie’’ . Thus not prohibiting him from being a man as long as he doesn’t lie.

Interesting to hear what is your take on this.

Meedo
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I am familair with these beliefs. And their understanding may be correct. Or more correct than my understanding. But I choose to worship God according to my understanding. This is what faith is, more or less, IMO.

On a more objective note, I will say this: Judaism, like any religion, evolves over time and certain understandings and beliefs will change. I think that it is evident just from reading our scripture, that at times we or at least some Jews worshipped idols, believed God took physical form, offered sacrifices to God because we believed the smells pleased Him, and imposed limitations on God, sometimes describing him merely as a super powerful warrior.

And as our beliefs/understanding change, how we read the scripture changes. In Judaism this is an extremely involved process that often results in two or more “traditoins” evolving from the same set of circumstances. Which is why the Talmud contains several contrary opinoins on a wide range of subjects.

All this is to say that my personal belief is that the truth of God is absolute but that our perception or understanding of that Truth is not absolute. And I believe that two perceptions of the truth can be different without one being superior to the other. So that while I don’t believe the interpertations of the two verses you posted are correct, I can acknowledge that they may be correct, that those who believe that way can be preceiving God in a way that is just as valid as my way, and that their conception here may even be more valid than my own. But it is not my conception.

Sorry if this post appears to be going everywhere and nowhere.
 
inJESUS said:
we agree on this. We do not believe God is a physical entity nor that God is a man. Is there a Jewish understanding saying that God cannot take a physical shape?
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My gut reaction is to point out that the entire world is filled with God’s Glory and that all physical reality is a part and apart from God.

Now, in general, other than saying “God exists”, all bets are off. We are finite beings and any attempt to define the Infinite God fails. All we can say is that existence is attributable to God.

If you want to take a Kabbalist approach, you view God as a being (and “being” is a poor choice of words as it connotes some sort of defined thing) that is completely unknowable to us. And all of our understanding of God derives from our preceptions of emanations of the Godhead. So I would suppose that taking physical form would fall under one of the emanations of God.
 
Valke2 said:
Thank you. I credit clean living and drinking Ovaltine every morning.
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😃 what’s Ovaltine?

To go back to topic, what is your understanding of the Memra, the personification of the Word in the Targum?
 
Valke2 said:
Yes. Jews beleive God is eternal and outside time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form diminishes Him (we believe). Numbers 23:19 confirms that God is not a man.
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and we believe that God is not a man, but i’m not aware of any scripture/teaching saying that anything can “diminish” God.

What would you say about the following:

Since God is somehow “untouchable” it is necessary to provide a viable link between YHWH and His earthly creation. One of the important links regarded in ancient rabbinical thought was “The Word”, called memra’ in Aramaic (from the Hebrew and Aramaic root, ‘mr which means: to say— the root used throughout Genesis 1 when God “said” and the material world came into reality and existence). The memra’ concept— that of a Divine Mediator between the unapproachable God and the creature Man— occurs hundreds of times in the Aramaic Targums.

Deuteronomy 4:7…For what people so great, to whom the Lord is so high in the Name of the Word of the Lord? But the custom of (other) nations is to carry their gods upon their shoulders, that they may seem to be nigh them; but they cannot hear with their ears, (be they nigh or) be they afar off; but the Word of the Lord sits upon His throne high and lifted up, and hears our prayer what time we pray before Him and make our petitions. (Targum Jonathan)

According to the Targums, Jacob, an important progenitor of the people of Israel, worshipped the Memra’ as his God.

¶.Genesis 28:20-21…And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, "If the Word of YHWH will be my support, and will keep me in the way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, so that I come again to my father’s house in peace; then shall the Word of YHWH be my God. (Targum Onkelos)

Whenever the Targum orators came to passages where YHWH is anthropomorphic (visible to humans) or where two or more YHWHs are indicated by the text, the Turgemen often substituted “The Word of the Lord” for one of the YHWHs.

For example in Gen. 19:23-24 the Tanakh has:

†.As the sun rose upon the earth and Lot entered Zoar, YHWH rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah sulfurous fire from YHWH out of heaven. (WHV)

The Hebrew grammar here indicates that one YHWH rained fire from another YHWH who was up in heaven. The Targum substitutes “The Word of YHWH” for the first of the two YHWHs as follows:

¶.And the Word of YHWH caused to descend upon the peoples of Sodom and Gomorrah, brimstone and fire from the YHWH in heaven. (Targum Jonathan)

Targumists paraphrased the text of Exodus 20:1 by substituting “the Word of YHWH” in place of YHWH.

¶.And the Word of the Lord spoke all the excellency of these words saying (Jerusalem Targum)

It was, according to another Targum, the Word of YHWH whom Abraham trusted in:

¶.Genesis 15:6…And Abraham trusted in the Word of YHWH, and He counted it to him for righteousness. (Targum Onkelos)

Moreover Abraham prayed in the name of the Word of YHWH:

¶.Genesis 22:14…And Abraham worshipped and prayed in the name of the Word of YHWH, and said, “You are YHWH who does see, but You cannot be seen.” (Jerusalem Targum)

Although Abraham prayed in the name of the Word of YHWH, his prayer was meant for the other one, the the untouchable YHWH who cannot be seen. So the first YHWH, the Memra’, acted as a mediator between Abraham and the True God.

The Memra’ has a significant role in Abraham’s covenant.

¶.Genesis 17:7…And I will establish my covenant between My Word and between you (Targum Onkelos)

¶.Exodus 12:42… Night second; when the Word of the Lord was revealed unto Abraham between the divided parts; when Abraham was a son of a hundred years, and Sarah was a daughter of ninety years, (Targum Jerusalem)

According to another Targum, The Word of YHWH created Man not only in the image of God, but also in the likeness of God’s word.

¶.Genesis 1:27…And the Word of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him, the male and his yoke-fellow He created them. (Jerusalem Targum)

The Memra’ conversed with Moses and commissioned him to lead Israel to freedom.

¶.Exodus 3:14…And the Word of YHWH said to Moses: “I am He who said unto the world ‘Be!’ and it was: and who in the future shall say to it ‘Be!’ and it shall be.” And He said: “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘I Am’ has sent me to you.” (Jerusalem Targum)

A partial Targum also expresses that the Word of YHWH was the Creator.

¶.Exodus 12:42…The first night, when the Word of YHWH was revealed to the world in order to create it, the world was desolate and void, and darkness spread over the face of the abyss and the Word of the Lord was bright and illuminating and He called it the first night. (Fragmentary Targum)

The Memra’ as Creator can also be seen in the Tanakh.

†.Psalm 33:6…By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, by the breath of His mouth, all their host. (1985 JPS Tanakh)

Noah’s covenant was between the Memra’ and all mankind.

¶.Genesis 9:17…And YHWH said to Noah, "This is the token of the covenant which I have established between My Word and between all flesh that is upon the earth. (Targum Onkelos)

The Memra’ is Israel’s savior.

¶.Isaiah 45:17, 25…But Israel shall be saved by the Word of YHWH with an everlasting salvation. By the Word of YHWH shall all the seed of Israel be justified. (Targum Jonathan)

¶.Hosea 1:7…But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and I will save them by the Word of YHWH, their God. (Targum Jonathan)
 
inJESUS said:
and we believe that God is not a man, but i’m not aware of any scripture/teaching saying that anything can “diminish” God.

What would you say about the following:
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I’d say: “Copying and pasting from other sites isn’t a good thing, you should just provide the link.”
 
inJESUS said:
What would you say about the following:

Since God is somehow “untouchable” it is necessary to provide a viable link between YHWH and His earthly creation. One of the important links regarded in ancient rabbinical thought was “The Word”, called memra’ in Aramaic (from the Hebrew and Aramaic root, ‘mr which means: to say— the root used throughout Genesis 1 when God “said” and the material world came into reality and existence). The memra’ concept— that of a Divine Mediator between the unapproachable God and the creature Man— occurs hundreds of times in the Aramaic Targums.
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I am not sure if I am following this. Is this suggesting that the text of Genesis itself is a bridge between us and the Divine. Certainly I have read discussions of the Torah in which it is viewed as a link between us and God. There are teaching that say Torah was created before creation and is the blueprint for this universe. THere’s also a teaching that if you can speak the entire Torah in one word, you will have spoken God’s true name.

According to the Targums, Jacob, an important progenitor of the people of Israel, worshipped the Memra’ as his God.

I’m not sure what to make of the rest of your post other than to say I found it interesting. Although it seemed to highlight a biblical editing issue more than a theological one. Or am I missing a point?
 
Valke2 said:
I am not sure if I am following this. Is this suggesting that the text of Genesis itself is a bridge between us and the Divine. Certainly I have read discussions of the Torah in which it is viewed as a link between us and God. There are teaching that say Torah was created before creation and is the blueprint for this universe. THere’s also a teaching that if you can speak the entire Torah in one word, you will have spoken God’s true name.

According to the Targums, Jacob, an important progenitor of the people of Israel, worshipped the Memra’ as his God.

I’m not sure what to make of the rest of your post other than to say I found it interesting. Although it seemed to highlight a biblical editing issue more than a theological one. Or am I missing a point?
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the point being discussed is that The Memra’ is to be worshipped, served, obeyed, spoken to, and prayed to, as God. The link might help you out, or if you have any other understanding of the Memra theology within Judaism, it could help as well.
 
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