Is Jesus bound to the Mass?

[MH84]

What I mean is does Jesus have to perform the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into His body and Blood as long as the consecration is valid? I mean if there is really grave abuses going on in other parts of the Mass or there are going to be many people receiving in the state of mortal sin for example in a particular parish at a particular time, do you think Jesus can decide to not allow transubstantiation to take place? If not for His own sake, but for the sake of the congregation and the priest? Or would that never happen because the Eucharist is the central part of the Mass?

 

[benedictgal]

What I mean is does Jesus have to perform the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into His body and Blood as long as the consecration is valid? I mean if there is really grave abuses going on in other parts of the Mass or there are going to be many people receiving in the state of mortal sin for example in a particular parish at a particular time, do you think Jesus can decide to not allow transubstantiation to take place? If not for His own sake, but for the sake of the congregation and the priest? Or would that never happen because the Eucharist is the central part of the Mass?

First of all, when God makes a covenant with man, He honors his word. Let me explain. God made the first covenant with Abraham wherein He told the patriarch to cut open a number of animals. In nomadic cultures, the lesser party entered into a covenant with the greater party for protection. However, in Abraham’s case, God, the greater party, willed to enter into a covenant with the weaker party, Abraham. However, rather than let Abraham walk in between the split carcases, God walked in his stead (via the flaming braziers). God knew that man would break his covenant, time and time again.

However, in Jesus, the covenant is made new. God binds himself to man by a bond that can never be broken. By His own word, Jesus decreed that this sacrifice should exist in perpetuity. He will not go back on his word. Therefore, Jesus is bound to the Mass.

I understand your point about the abuses. The whole issue just sickens me. However, Jesus is bound to His promise, even though, we repeat the same mistakes that our ancestors in the faith have made. We repeatedly break the covenant; but, Jesus’ word still remains.

 

[SMHW]

What I mean is does Jesus have to perform the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into His body and Blood as long as the consecration is valid?

I’m guessing you mean the words and actions of the priest are correct and that valid matter is used (even while there are other abuses during the Mass), because the bread and wine transforming into the Body and Blood of Christ is a valid consecration by definition.

 

[MH84]

I’m guessing you mean the words and actions of the priest are correct and that valid matter is used (even while there are other abuses during the Mass), because the bread and wine transforming into the Body and Blood of Christ is a valid consecration by definition.

What I meant was:

"What I mean is does Jesus have to perform the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into His body and Blood as long as the words of the consecration is valid?..

 

[kleary]

What I mean is does Jesus have to perform the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into His body and Blood as long as the consecration is valid? I mean if there is really grave abuses going on in other parts of the Mass or there are going to be many people receiving in the state of mortal sin for example in a particular parish at a particular time, do you think Jesus can decide to not allow transubstantiation to take place? If not for His own sake, but for the sake of the congregation and the priest? Or would that never happen because the Eucharist is the central part of the Mass?

Actually it is not Jesus Christ Himself who changes the bread and wine but the priest himself acting in persona Christi. Yes Virginia…the priest has the power to change mere bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ and offer them to the Triune God.

And this change does not depend on the congregation, how sinful they may be or in what state they are. What does make validity is the faith of the priest in what he is doing…he MUST believe in doing what the Church does in this matter.

Ken

 

[MH84]

First of all, when God makes a covenant with man, He honors his word. Let me explain. God made the first covenant with Abraham wherein He told the patriarch to cut open a number of animals. In nomadic cultures, the lesser party entered into a covenant with the greater party for protection. However, in Abraham’s case, God, the greater party, willed to enter into a covenant with the weaker party, Abraham. However, rather than let Abraham walk in between the split carcases, God walked in his stead (via the flaming braziers). God knew that man would break his covenant, time and time again.

However, in Jesus, the covenant is made new. God binds himself to man by a bond that can never be broken. By His own word, Jesus decreed that this sacrifice should exist in perpetuity. He will not go back on his word. Therefore, Jesus is bound to the Mass.

I understand your point about the abuses. The whole issue just sickens me. However, Jesus is bound to His promise, even though, we repeat the same mistakes that our ancestors in the faith have made. We repeatedly break the covenant; but, Jesus’ word still remains.

This may sound like a simple question, but Im not actually sure about this:

Is the Eucharist the covenant or is it *the sign of the *covenant? Thanks

 

[MH84]

Actually it is not Jesus Christ Himself who changes the bread and wine but the priest himself acting in persona Christi. Yes Virginia…the priest has the power to change mere bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ and offer them to the Triune God.

And this change does not depend on the congregation, how sinful they may be or in what state they are. What does make validity is the faith of the priest in what he is doing…he MUST believe in doing what the Church does in this matter.

Ken

What about if the priest is not thinking about whether he believes what he is doing is acting in persona Christi during the consecration? IOW, what if during the consecration, the priest is sort of just going through the motions?

 

[SMHW]

And this change does not depend on the congregation, how sinful they may be or in what state they are. What does make validity is the faith of the priest in what he is doing…he MUST believe in doing what the Church does in this matter.

In fact it does not depend on priest being in a state of Grace either. The priest can be in a state of mortal sin.

 

[benedictgal]

This may sound like a simple question, but Im not actually sure about this:

Is the Eucharist the covenant or is it *the sign of the *covenant? Thanks

These are the words of consecration of the Precious Blood:

This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you…

It is not a sign of the new covenant. It is the new covenant. Remember that covenants were sealed with the blood of animals. In Israel’s case, it was the blood of lambs. Jesus is the true Lamb of God.

 

[SMHW]

What about if the priest is not thinking about whether he believes what he is doing is acting in persona Christi during the consecration? IOW, what if during the consecration, the priest is sort of just going through the motions?

I don’t think any mere mortal at Mass is ever completely there mentally. I think you can generally conclude that if a priest who is just going through the motions at a given Mass has the correct underlying beliefs about doing what the Church intends, then he in fact does intend to act in persona Christi.

Now if a priest has never had the intention of doing what the Church teaches or at some point decides that he no longer is doing what the Church intends or teaches. I’d say the validity of the consecration comes into doubt.

 

[kleary]

This may sound like a simple question, but Im not actually sure about this:

Is the Eucharist the covenant or is it *the sign of the *covenant? Thanks

It is THE covenant…it is not a sign or symbol…the priest actually offers the true Divine Victim to the Trinity.

Ken

 

[kleary]

What about if the priest is not thinking about whether he believes what he is doing is acting in persona Christi during the consecration? IOW, what if during the consecration, the priest is sort of just going through the motions?

The priest MUST INTEND on doing what the Church does. He MUST intend to change the substance of bread and wine into the substance of Jesus Christ and offer Him in Sacrifice to the Triune God.

If during the consecration the priest does not intend on changing the bread and wine into Jesus Christ and offering Him to the Triune God then the consecration is INVALID.

Ken

 

[MH84]

It is THE covenant…it is not a sign or symbol…the priest actually offers the true Divine Victim to the Trinity.

Ken

Okay, then, thanks kleary and benedictgal. What about protestants and evangelicals? When they talk abou the new covenant, what do they believe it is?

 

[kleary]

In fact it does not depend on priest being in a state of Grace either. The priest can be in a state of mortal sin.

Correct…yet if the priest celebrates Mass in the state of Mortal Sin it is grave sacrelidge and another mortal sin on top of the others for him.

Ken

 

[kleary]

Okay, then, thanks kleary and benedictgal. What about protestants and evangelicals? When they talk abou the new covenant, what do they believe it is?

They believe their “Lord’s Supper” is symbolic…that it all symbolizes the Covenant made on Calvary and is done simply in remembrance of Jesus.

Ken

 

[MH84]

Correct…yet if the priest celebrates Mass in the state of Mortal Sin it is grave sacrelidge and another mortal sin on top of the others for him.

Ken

What happens if the priest is the only priest nearby and he needs to celebrate Sunday Mass? What should he do?

 

[AJV]

What happens if the priest is the only priest nearby and he needs to celebrate Sunday Mass? What should he do?

If it is a grave reason, he should make an act of perfect contrition and then celebrate the Mass.

 

[japhy]

The priest MUST INTEND on doing what the Church does. He MUST intend to change the substance of bread and wine into the substance of Jesus Christ and offer Him in Sacrifice to the Triune God.

If during the consecration the priest does not intend on changing the bread and wine into Jesus Christ and offering Him to the Triune God then the consecration is INVALID.

Valid sacraments have four components: matter, minister, form, and intention.

The matter of the Eucharist is bread and wine. The minister is a priest (or bishop). The form is the words of institution as found in the Missal. The intention is to do what the Church does: to transubstantiate the bread and wine into the Body, Body, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit and thereby perpetuate the one ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ to the Father.

Those four criteria must be met for the sacrament of the Eucharist to be validly (that is, actually) confected.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

What I mean is does Jesus have to perform the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into His body and Blood as long as the consecration is valid? I mean if there is really grave abuses going on in other parts of the Mass or there are going to be many people receiving in the state of mortal sin for example in a particular parish at a particular time, do you think Jesus can decide to not allow transubstantiation to take place? If not for His own sake, but for the sake of the congregation and the priest? Or would that never happen because the Eucharist is the central part of the Mass?

Yes! The Sacraments are always valid when the proper Form (words), Matter (wheat bread and natural grape wine) and Intent of the proper minister is present. Their effects may be diminished by the state of the soul of the recipients, but the Sacrament is always valid. Jesus however is not bound to His Sacraments and He can dispense the Grace anywhere at any time to anybody. Which is why people can receive Grace by Spiritual Communion when they cannot physically receive Holy Communion. The Grace may be Actual or Sanctifying depending on the recipient.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Actually it is not Jesus Christ Himself who changes the bread and wine but the priest himself acting in persona Christi.

Actually, it’s the Holy Spirit who changes the Bread and Wine at the prayers of the Priest.