Is Jesus God?

JP_Marat · Oct 20, 2009

Demiurge (the Latinized form of Greek dēmiourgos, δημιουργός, literally “public or skilled worker”, from dēmios “belonging to the people, public” + ergon "work"and hence a “maker”, “artisan” or “craftsman”) in philosophical and religious language is a term for a creator deity, responsible for the creation of the Universe. (from Wikipedia)

Also known as the Logos or Arche. See esp. Philo of Alexandria

Col 1:15-17 “He is the image of the invisible God,** the firstborn of all creation**. For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together” (NAB).

John 1:1-4 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; “(NAB)

In summary, in all cases the creator god, but not eternal like God the Father (Re: firstborn of all creation)

Ben_Masada · Oct 20, 2009

twb1621 said:
I’m telling you that no where in the Old Testament or in the New Testament is there any evidence of any Jew being forced to attend the teachings of Christ. And I am telling you there are many instances in scripture that tell us many Jews came to Jesus and to His apostles to hear, learn and convert to the teachings and life Christ calls us to. I am not trying to offend you but you on the other hand have a fixation that Paul established the Faith Jesus in fact founded and although I understand many Jews now days are centered on that, it is irritating when you waste so much time on something that is false to begin with.

If you are so determined to prove Paul is the be all and end all of the establishment of the Christian Faith, respond to the scripture verses I presented you and show me how Christ did not found His Church. If that is not your position, lets move on to something with a bit more substance.

**If you are sure that my understanding that Paul was the founder of Christianity is so false, why don’t you explain to me why Christians were first called Christians with Paul in Antioch? The text is in Acts 11:26. That’s as simple as that. **

twb1621 · Oct 20, 2009

twb1621 said:
So many interpretations yet for almost 2000 years true scholars in their respective fields (mulitiple fields of study) have determined the proper interpretations.

**John CH1; 1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και **θεος ην ο λογος

θεὸς = “was God” as contained in the true text.

"like a god" as used by the NWT would have required the original Greek text to contain - “σαν ένα” = “like a”

**Where does the print “σαν ένα” or an similarity show up in the above Greek text to support it’s addition. **

Latin Vulgate John CH1:1 in principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum

Latin vulgate 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

**Additionally, **

**“like a god” would have required the original Greek text to contain - “ήταν ένας θεός” = “like a god”
**

crowcounty · Oct 20, 2009

Ben_Masada said:
**If you are sure that my understanding that Paul was the founder of Christianity is so false, why don’t you explain to me why Christians were first called Christians with Paul in Antioch? The text is in Acts 11:26. That’s as simple as that. **

isaiah started it he was the first christian writer of the new testament hehehe

twb1621 · Oct 20, 2009

Ben_Masada said:
**If you are sure that my understanding that Paul was the founder of Christianity is so false, why don’t you explain to me why Christians were first called Christians with Paul in Antioch? The text is in Acts 11:26. That’s as simple as that. **

Biblical Interpretation Acts CH11;

[19-26] The Jewish Christian antipathy to the mixed community was reflected by the early missionaries generally. The few among them who entertained a different view succeeded in introducing Gentiles into the community at Antioch (in Syria). When the disconcerted Jerusalem community sent Barnabas to investigate, he was so favorably impressed by what he observed that he persuaded his friend Saul to participate in the Antioch mission.

[26] Christians: “Christians” is first applied to the members of the community at Antioch because the Gentile members of the community enable it to stand out clearly from Judaism.

Ben,
What about Christ’s establishing His Church in Scripture and assigning the Apostles to spread the word and preach His gospel? What about the scripture verses I previously presented to you?

What about all the Christians who had previously been taught and went to Antioch after Stephen’s martyrdom and preached? That was before Barnabas and Paul ever went there to preach. Were they not the founders? They were the disciples of the apostles after all.

What about the Apostles themselves who elected officially to send Barnabas to learn what was going on in Antioch based on the rumors of the conversions taking place both of Jew and Gentile.

What about Barnabas himself who was sent there by the Apostles to learn of the interest and conversions as a result of the preaching of the Gospel by those first followers of Christ.

It was Barnabas who went to get Paul and bring him to Jerusalem to the others convincing Paul to accompany him (Barnabas) and assist in the preaching of the Gospel. So how is it you single out Paul if there is no underlying reason? You’re falling to an narrow-mindedness that prevents you from learning the truth.

So you want to adopt Paul aside from all others as the founder of Christianity because someone first referred to followers of Christ as Christians in Antioch? You have been misguided without doubt.

The gospel plainly attests to who founded Christ’s faith and who He chose to establish His Church and His primary teachers of His word as well as the initial establishment of a hierarchy.

JP_Marat · Oct 20, 2009

twb1621 said:
**Additionally, **

"like a god" would have required the original Greek text to contain - “ήταν ένας θεός” = “like a god”

RESPONSE:

I’m not sure where your 'like a god" is coming from. The koine Greek reads:

“kai theos En ho logos” “and a god was the saying word”

In Greek cosmology, the logos was a lesser created god who was responsible for the rest of creation. Not to be confused with the eternal God who was called Monad or in Christian cosmology, God the Father.

Dan_Parker · Oct 20, 2009

JP_Marat said:
RESPONSE:

I’m not sure where your 'like a god" is coming from. The koine Greek reads:

“kai theos En ho logos” “and a god was the saying word”

In Greek cosmology, the logos was a lesser created god who was responsible for the rest of creation. Not to be confused with the eternal God who was called Monad or in Christian cosmology, God the Father.

There is no reason for it. Also consider a similar text:
KJV Exodus 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, **I have made thee a god = DEDOKA SE QEON **to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. In fact the Hebrew has elohim and not le:elohim (like God) in this verse.

Steven_John · Oct 20, 2009

… who else but God can walk on tread the seas? Who else but God can calm the oceans and winds?

Anyone G-d wills, He need only say an it is so.

crowcounty · Oct 20, 2009

Canto · Oct 20, 2009

Ben_Masada said:
**If you are sure that my understanding that Paul was the founder of Christianity is so false, why don’t you explain to me why Christians were first called Christians with Paul in Antioch? The text is in Acts 11:26. That’s as simple as that. **

Just because the term Christian may have been used first at Antioch doesn’t mean that’s when Christianity began.

Did evoloution (if one believes) begin only with Darwin’s theory and thus there was no thing evolving until that time - of course not, that would be most silly

Long before Paul Christ said…

You are Rock (Peter) and on this rock I will build my Church…
Go teach all nations, baptising them in the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

adrift · Oct 20, 2009

JP_Marat said:
RESPONSE:

First of all, this is John’s gospel dating from 95 to 110 AD. It was written AFTER the idea that Jesus himself was divine developed (c 85 AD).

:nope: Jesus is divine and He said He was so it didn’t developed it was proclaimed “I AM”

And a more correct translation would be:
“In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was a god. He was in the beginning with God.”

The Greek word is Logos which is defined

Philosophy.

In pre-Socratic philosophy, the principle governing the cosmos, the source of this principle, or human reasoning about the cosmos.

Among the Sophists, the topics of rational argument or the arguments themselves.

In Stoicism, the active, material, rational principle of the cosmos; nous. Identified with God, it is the source of all activity and generation and is the power of reason residing in the human soul.

Judaism.

In biblical Judaism, the word of God, which itself has creative power and is God’s medium of communication with the human race.

In Hellenistic Judaism, a hypostasis associated with divine wisdom.

Christianity. In Saint John’s Gospel, especially in the prologue (1:1-14), the creative word of God, which is itself God and incarnate in Jesus. Also called Word.

Logos is not a translation. The correct translation then is Word. It is incorrect to put in “a god” that is a incorrect translation.

It is an error to believe that when something is written is when it was developed. The Gospels were preached before they were written down including the FACT that Jesus is God.

Canto · Oct 20, 2009

adrift said:
It is an error to believe that when something is written is when it was developed. The Gospels were preached before they were written down including the FACT that Jesus is God.

crowcounty · Oct 20, 2009

Isaiah 9:6 (New American Standard Bible)

Code:

6For a (A)child will be born to us, a (B)son will be given to us;
     And the (C)government will rest (D)on His shoulders;
     And His name will be called (E)Wonderful Counselor, (F)Mighty God,
     Eternal (G)Father, Prince of (H)Peace.

Cross references:

Steven_John · Oct 20, 2009

The Gospels were preached before they were written down

Amen to that, so were many other writings.

That is why there was so much debate as to what would be included and what would not.

I dont think Peter (pbuh) was present when the decision to include or exclude writings for what we no today as the bibles.

I say bibles as all Christians dont agree to this day as to what books are not to be included.

fhansen · Oct 20, 2009

Ben_Masada said:
**How do I know that Judaism is true and what actual evidence do I have? Canto, the question is excellent and I do have an equally excellent answer, which will need only your honesty to understand.

You love Jesus and you even consider him Divine. Okay, during his lifetime in this world, Jesus was a Jewish man whose Faith was Judaism. Do you think Jesus would be a member of a false Faith? I didn’t think so. I could list here a few more evidences, if you were not a Catholic, but being yourself a Catholic, I have given you the most important evidence: Judaism as the Faith of Jesus.

Now, with regards to being God absolutely One, you can read Deuteronomy 6:4. And to make it stronger in your case as a Catholic, you can read Mark 12:29. Both quotations speak of God being One and the Only Lord.**

Why would anyone trust the faith of a man who misrepresented who he was?

system · Oct 20, 2009

Folks,please check out this site, www.johnthebaptist.us. It is hosted by a Catholic man.

Ben_Masada · Oct 21, 2009

crowcounty said:
isaiah started it he was the first christian writer of the new testament hehehe

You are simply not serious!

JP_Marat · Oct 21, 2009

Canto said:
Just because the term Christian may have been used first at Antioch doesn’t mean that’s when Christianity began.

Did evoloution (if one believes) begin only with Darwin’s theory and thus there was no thing evolving until that time - of course not, that would be most silly

Long before Paul Christ said…

You are Rock (Peter) and on this rock I will build my Church…
Go teach all nations, baptising them in the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

RESPONSE:

Actuallly, he didn’t. Matthew and Luke used Mark as their source document. Look up the story in Mark. The first part of the passages are identical but there is nothing about founding a church or Peter’s authority. Apparently, this passage was written in later. And if you read John 1, you will find that Simon was originally told that Jesus was the messiah by his brother Andrew long before Simon became an apostle. And Simon had his name changed to Peter then too. Do you know what an interpolation to scripture is?

JP_Marat · Oct 21, 2009

crowcounty said:

Isaiah 9:6 (New American Standard Bible)

Code:

6For a (A)child will be born to us, a (B)son will be given to us;
     And the (C)government will rest (D)on His shoulders;
     And His name will be called (E)Wonderful Counselor, (F)Mighty God,
     Eternal (G)Father, Prince of (H)Peace.

Cross references:

RESPONSE:

Yes. This was the Jewish king about eight centuries before Jesus’ time.

JP_Marat · Oct 21, 2009

adrift said:
:nope: Jesus is divine and He said He was so it didn’t developed it was proclaimed “I AM”

The Greek word is Logos which is defined

Logos is not a translation. The correct translation then is Word. It is incorrect to put in “a god” that is a incorrect translation.

It is an error to believe that when something is written is when it was developed. The Gospels were preached before they were written down including the FACT that Jesus is God.

RESPONSE:

As I pointed out the “creator god” was himself a created non-eternal deity, the “first born of all creation” according to Paul.

Is Jesus God?

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