Is Jesus God?

[Steven_John]

John 8:58

Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, i am.”

This proves Jesus (pbwh) pre existed Abraham (pbuh) and does not prove him to be His Father.

John 1:1,14

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Just a thought to throw around was God always? does he have a beginning, i know the created world does and know that Jesus is then.

Yes i could see this proves Jesus (pbwh) was created by and of God, but does not rebuke the other points where Jesus (pbwh) explains the Father is greater.

Surely My God is all knowing and all seeing all of the time?

 

[joannazenobia]

I hope I am reiterating this correctly but the other day I was listening to Fr Corapi and he stated that the entire Bible both the Old and the New Testament is about Jesus…yes He is God. He also talked about the Holy Trinity…

How interesting, just recently, I started re-reading the Old Testament after I had read the Gospels…call it devine intuition…but I was slowly coming to that conclusion myself. I see all the Old Testament stories in a whole new light that it IS the entire story about Jesus. It’s hard to wrap your brain around that, but it IS true.

That’s why its called the mystery of our faith, I guess

 

[mary1173]

How interesting, just recently, I started re-reading the Old Testament after I had read the Gospels…call it devine intuition…but I was slowly coming to that conclusion myself. I see all the Old Testament stories in a whole new light that it IS the entire story about Jesus. It’s hard to wrap your brain around that, but it IS true.

That’s why its called the mystery of our faith, I guess

Yes that is what it is talking about in the Bible. Old and New Testaments.
A very good observation if I must say so myself. I had come to that realization about 10 years ago in learning about my faith during an RCIA confirmation class.
/COLOR]

 

[mary1173]

If after reading these two verses in the fourth gospel, you still believe that John, the Apostle was the author of the fourth gospel, you are what your name says.
What you have given me is an extra evidence that the guys who wrote the gospels were not Jews, much less in the quality of Jesus’ Apostles.

So, the guy who wrote the gospel of John says that John is one of the eyewitnesses. Of what if I may ask, of the resurrection? That’s what I want to know and the text just does not say that.

By what authority do you speak? Has God given you special powers to refute Christ’s existence , Death and resurrection? If so please explain.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben,

have you ever read “Dialogue With Trypho”, by St. Justin Martyr written in the 2nd Century A.D.?

newadvent.org/fathers/0128.htm

It is a back and fourth between a 2nd century Jew and Catholic. It might be worth your while to read if not for anything else than to better understand Catholic arguments.

I understand Catholic arguments. They are anti-Jewish. And I use of my time to discuss
the Scriptures with Catholics, not because they are different from ours, but because they use Jews to distort the image of Judaism.

 

[Ben_Masada]

No, I’m just wondering if you are the pot? Or the kettle?

I don’t see the contradictions. You see, you sit on your mountaintop and say, “No real Jew would do this…” or “No real Jew would say that…”. You Jews have a history full of actions that “No real Jew would do”.

 

[NotWorthy]

Originally Posted by NotWorthy forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*Quote:
I don’t see the contradictions. You see, you sit on your mountaintop and say, “No real Jew would do this…” or “No real Jew would say that…”. You Jews have a history full of actions that “No real Jew would do”.
**

BenMasada:

Of course you don’t! You are a Catholic. Even if you did it, the Church would rule that out.

**Great, so you give me a great retort without answering my dilemma. You do admit that the Jewish history is full of actions that “No real Jew would do”, don’t you?

Quote:Posted by **NotWorthy** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5683899#post5683899)
 	 		 			 				So its just quite ironic to read your posts that quip, "Peter couldn't have said that, because.....".

**

BenMasada:
****… because he would not be Jewish. That’s the same as when you say that those who killed Jews during the Crusades and Inquisition were not Catholics.**No, they were Catholics. They were just sinful Catholics. Very Sinful Catholics.

In contrast, Peter was a Jew. He states in Acts 10 that he never ate food that was unclean up to that point. BTW, what makes Peter’s words “Non-Jewish”?

Quote:Posted by **NotWorthy** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5683899#post5683899)
 	 		 Now you are full of contradictions. Paul admitted to persecuting the Way. Your good Anias seemed to think that the bishop of Jerusalem needed to be thrown off the temple.

**

BenMasada:
****No, he did not. ** Didn’t the high priest, Anias, see to the death of James, bishop of Jerusalem. Didn’t the good loyal Jews protest so much about this incident, along with the Christians, to see to the removal of Anias as Rome-appointed High Priest?
Anias execution of James, Bishop of Rome, seems to be an incident that no real Jew would do, don’t you think?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Really easy, Jesus was a threat to the Temple system and to the teachings of cleanliness and God’s forgiveness. Plenty of times Jesus and the High Priests clashed on these important issues. Jesus’ fulfillment of these laws was not narrow minded like the Jewish priestly class, it encompassed all men, clean and unclean, Jew and Gentile. That’s why the Jews demanded he be crucified (and no I don’t mean every single Jew including you were there calling for His blood to be upon your head and the head of your children, don’t misconstrue it). Only a handful of influential Jews in high places close to Rome set the events in motion leading to the crucifixion.

Really easy? Not that easy, because you have not answered my question. It means the contradiction remains. Jesus was no threat to the Temple system. Who said so, the Hellenistic Gentiles who wrote the gospels? Why should I believe in Jewish haters who had a mind only to establish the church of Paul? If the guys who wrote the NT, were Jewish, I myself would quit being Jewish.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Jesus is God because he said he was (I AM), and if you don’t believe God, you won’t believe anyone else on this forum who tries to argue Jesus is God. You first have to give an assent to believe Jesus is God for your understanding to follow, as St. Augustine would argue. I know that from personal experience, too. Arguing all day will get the atheist absolutely nowhere. I’ll pray for you atheists, though.

Atheists do not believe in God. I do believe in God. Therefore, I am not an Atheist. And the opposite of Atheism is idolatry, which is practiced by those who believe that a man can be God.

 

[NotWorthy]

Atheists do not believe in God. I do believe in God. Therefore, I am not an Atheist. And the opposite of Atheism is idolatry, which is practiced by those who believe that a man can be God.

… which is something that Christians do NOT profess. A man can not be God. But Jesus is not just “A man”. He is The Word… The Alpha and The Omega… etc., etc.

 

[NotWorthy]

**Really easy? Not that easy, because you have not answered my question. It means the contradiction remains. Jesus was no threat to the Temple system. Who said so, the Hellenistic Gentiles who wrote the gospels? **

I think Matthew was quite clear in the sign that Jesus gave when He overturned the market tables and money changers’ tables. The Temple sacrificial system was coming down. Which is exactly what happened 40 years later, after Matthew’s Gospel was already written.

 

[Steven_John]

Hi Not worthy,

Is G-d all knowing all seeing?

Does he know what is happening with me here you there and that guy in Cina, at the same time seamlessly?

Is His will constant or does He think this way now and different after?

 

[ready]

Atheists do not believe in God. I do believe in God. Therefore, I am not an Atheist. And the opposite of Atheism is idolatry, which is practiced by those who believe that a man can be God.

But a man was also God, therefore, it is not idolatry for me to worship him or believe in him. I too like you once had to believe by faith alone that Jesus died for me and was God. My circumstances were so extraordinary - I was put through a serious dark night of faith. The understanding followed after I gave my assent to believe Jesus died for me (but not before). I urge you to at least accept on faith alone that Jesus died for you and is God. I assure you, if you keep open, understanding will follow. St. Augustine even says this. Otherwise you may never believe in Jesus. That might not sound like the end of the world to you, but you will be missing out on the Eucharist, our gift of heaven on earth. I now understand you are not an atheist. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi Not worthy,

Is G-d all knowing all seeing?

Does he know what is happening with me here you there and that guy in Cina, at the same time seamlessly?

Is His will constant or does He think this way now and different after?

God knows every hair on our head (of course with me, that’s not a lot to count ).

But to answer your question - Yes, God’s Will is constant. He doesn’t change His mind. In the Old Testament, He may have seemed to have changed His mind, like whether to destroy Israel or not, but this was to teach His People a lesson.

I’m thinking you already knew that, so why do you ask?

 

[Steven_John]

I’m thinking you already knew that, so why do you ask?

Its just that Yahooshua (pbwh) so many times did not fill this criteria.

The Father is greater than i,
No one knows who sits where only My Father does,
Come to the Father through me
Let it be your will not mine
Why have you forsaken me
(not quotes)

Are just a few.

I dont doubt i see G-d in with and through the son but in scripture it seems that The Father is all knowing and Yahooshua (pbwh) gets from Him.

 

[NotWorthy]

Its just that Yahooshua (pbwh) so many times did not fill this criteria.

The Father is greater than i,
No one knows who sits where only My Father does,
Come to the Father through me
Let it be your will not mine
Why have you forsaken me
(not quotes)

Are just a few.

I dont doubt i see G-d in with and through the son but in scripture it seems that The Father is all knowing and Yahooshua (pbwh) gets from Him.

To understand this mystery is to understand the two natures of God. We were discussing this on another thread, but Jesus has two natures - one, the omnipotent Fully God Nature and the other, the Fully Human Nature.

The Human Nature understands, almost second hand, what the Divine Nature knows intuitively. Think of the first time that Jesus ever saw a fig. His Divine Nature knew exactly how the fig would feel and taste, including how regular it would make Him (sorry, I HAD to go there). The Human Nature only knew these things as if someone described it to him. How hard is it to convey the taste of something to someone who has never tasted it? So Jesus’ Human Nature would know that the fig would be squishy and that it would taste… well, you can insert your own fig taste here (my vote is for “yuck”). But until He actually bit into the Fig would the Human Nature fully comprehend the taste of figs.

So with that said, I’ll tackle a few of your examples:
Let it be your will not mine - The Divine Nature saw the “whole picture” of what Jesus’ Death and Resurrection would bring about. The Human Nature understood that it was necessary, but was scared… very scared.

Why have you forsaken me - I think you’re mis-reading this statement. Jesus understands Psalm 22 rather intimately and is quoting it, not for His benefit but for ours (the listeners and the readers). For Psalm 22, although beginning in misery, ends with the Psalmist praising God for all His Goodness! Jesus is teaching us to trust God, no matter the circumstances. You’ll notice that everything Jesus said on the Cross was an invaluable lesson for us, beginning with His living out the Beatitudes - “Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do”.

Come to the Father through me - We are Children of God, but we are still subject to our senses. Those who lived back then, could see Jesus and hear Him and touch Him. Christians today, although we can’t see Him, we can relate to Him in a much more intimate way than we can God, the Father. Its only natural, but that’s part of the sheer genius of God’s Plan!

 

[Steven_John]

Sorry you typed so much for me, you have supported my argument.

In truth did you get all of that understanding by revelation or some from other men.

In your explanation Yahooshua (pbwh) was clearly dependant on The Father.

I did not see The Father as dependant on him.

 

[NotWorthy]

Sorry you typed so much for me, you have supported my argument.

In truth did you get all of that understanding by revelation or some from other men.

In your explanation Yahooshua (pbwh) was clearly dependant on The Father.

I did not see The Father as dependant on him.

I got this understanding by studying the Bible and the Church.

But, as to your statement, it seems that the Father is equally dependent upon Jesus.

• No one comes to the Father except through me (paraphrasing).
• All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;

 

[Steven_John]

I got this understanding by studying the Bible and the Church.

But, as to your statement, it seems that the Father is equally dependent upon Jesus.

• No one comes to the Father except through me (paraphrasing).
• All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;

For me that has man dependant of Yahooshua (pbwh) not the Father

 

[NotWorthy]

For me that has man dependant of Yahooshua (pbwh) not the Father

Ahhhh, but man is dependent upon God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! Amen!

BTW, I know you’re being reverent with “pbwh”, but in my warped head, it seems like you’re giving a raspberry every time you do that. What exactly does it mean, “Peace be with Him”?