Is Jesus God?

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JP_Marat said:
Note: Homage is not worship.
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Again we have a translation problem. Looking at the Greek, this word is rendered as worship not homage. I could not find the word homage in Ancient Greek. That is not surprising as the word homage date is 14th century. We have Matt 9:18 Jesus is being worshiped by a ruler. Matt 14:33 after quieting the storm worshiped Him. Matt 15:25 has a women worshiping Him. Matt 28:9 He is again worshiped. Matt 28:17 even the NAB has it as worship.
The translator chose the word homage but the Greek is worship.
 
adrift said:
Again we have a translation problem. Looking at the Greek, this word is rendered as worship not homage. I could not find the word homage in Ancient Greek. That is not surprising as the word homage date is 14th century. We have Matt 9:18 Jesus is being worshiped by a ruler. Matt 14:33 after quieting the storm worshiped Him. Matt 15:25 has a women worshiping Him. Matt 28:9 He is again worshiped. Matt 28:17 even the NAB has it as worship.
The translator chose the word homage but the Greek is worship.
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The Greek word is PROSKUNEW and it depends upon context for its meaning.

NAB Matthew 14:33 Those who were in the boat did him homage = PROSKUNEW, saying, “Truly, you are the Son of God.”

I am not sure how you looked up this word, but in the Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich Greek Lexicon it gives the gloss “homage” in the following context:

—Jesus, who is rendered homage as Messianic king and helper: Mt 2:2, 8, 11.—8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; J 9:38.—Mt 20:20;

This same word is used of the homage that Abraham gives his Father in Law. It is a bowing down given a superior in contexts outside of Sacred Service given God.

Thayer Greek Lexicon gives this gloss in part:in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do **homage **(to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used a. of homage shown to men of superior rank:
 
Dan_Parker said:
This same word is used of the homage that Abraham gives his Father in Law. It is a bowing down given a superior in contexts outside of Sacred Service given God.
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Please give the scripture you are referring to. I can’t find any mention of Abraham’s father in law.
 
adrift said:
Please give the scripture you are referring to. I can’t find any mention of Abraham’s father in law.
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Sorry, it was Moses. (Don’t get old and forgetful like me!!) Here is the passage:

DRA Exodus 18:7 And he went out to meet his kinsman, and **worshipped **and kissed him: and they saluted one another with words of peace. And when he was come into the tent,

LXE Exodus 18:7 And Moses went forth to meet his father-in-law, and did him reverence, and kissed him, and they embraced each other, and he brought them into the tent.

NAB Exodus 18:7 Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, bowed down before him, and kissed him. Having greeted each other, they went into the tent.

The Greek word is PROSKUNEW, the same one we have been discussing. In Hebrew I believe it is Shakaw.
 
Dan_Parker said:
Sorry, it was Moses. (Don’t get old and forgetful like me!!) Here is the passage:
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Your to late in your warning:yup: Context is always important. I am not an expert in Greek but according to the program I use says it is proskuneo meaning to lick like a dog:D The word does mean worship. Homage is not a word that existed at the time. That means we are left with what the translator best guess is. So when we come to where homage is used it is not all that clear if the translator got it right. Those who see homage as worship are not wrong. The same word is used in many examples Take Mark 5:6. or Matthew 14:33 the context lends to Supernatural power not just honoring. It is the same word used in Luke 4.which is obviously Worship.
 
adrift said:
Your to late in your warning:yup: Context is always important. I am not an expert in Greek but according to the program I use says it is proskuneo meaning to lick like a dog:D The word does mean worship. Homage is not a word that existed at the time. That means we are left with what the translator best guess is. So when we come to where homage is used it is not all that clear if the translator got it right. Those who see homage as worship are not wrong. The same word is used in many examples Take Mark 5:6. or Matthew 14:33 the context lends to Supernatural power not just honoring. It is the same word used in Luke 4.which is obviously Worship.
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Context is important, but you have not discussed the context. Do you argue that Moses licked his father in law like a dog? Yes, the word does mean worship. Did you mean to say that it does not mean worship? According to the Douay Rheims that I quoted they render it as worship.

I am not sure what you mean by homage not being a word at “that time.” Homage is an English word. English was not a spoken language in Moses’ day. Is that what you mean? How does this help you? However homage was a word when the Douay Rheims was translated. Why did they not use it? Did Moses worship his father in law in the religious sense? Not a chance.

When you say PROSKUNEW means to lick like a dog, you mis-read your source. Please provide it if you can. Your source is likely referring to one theory as to the etymology of the word. There are other theories, but what really matters is usage, not etymology.

Finally, I agree that in some contexts PROSKUNEW can mean worship in the religious sense. However it is up to the individual who makes the argument in a particular instance to prove that this is the case or not the case.

What the range of meanings indicates is that one cannot assume that PROSKUNEW means worship because they assert it means worship and an individual cannot assert it does not mean worship because of their bald assertion.

Context is king.
 
Dan_Parker said:
Context is important, but you have not discussed the context. Do you argue that Moses licked his father in law like a dog? Yes, the word does mean worship. Did you mean to say that it does not mean worship? According to the Douay Rheims that I quoted they render it as worship.
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🙂 I was only repeating what the word meant not that Moses actually did that. It means worship. Other translations do not render it that way. I don’t think it is important enough to quote them but I can if you wish;)
I am not sure what you mean by homage not being a word at “that time.” Homage is an English word. English was not a spoken language in Moses’ day. Is that what you mean? How does this help you? However homage was a word when the Douay Rheims was translated. Why did they not use it? Did Moses worship his father in law in the religious sense? Not a chance.
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Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French homage, omage, from home man, vassal, from Latin homin-, homo human being; akin to Old English guma human being, Latin humus earth — more at humble
Date: 14th century
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It is an invented word to describe something. It means that when the Scripture was written the writer did not have a word that would be what we know as homage. The word or equivalent was not used. Clear as mud I know:o
When you say PROSKUNEW means to lick like a dog, you mis-read your source. Please provide it if you can. Your source is likely referring to one theory as to the etymology of the word. There are other theories, but what really matters is usage, not etymology.
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I think you misunderstood. I was amused as to how the word developed not anything more was intended.
4352 proskuneo {pros-koo-neh’-o} from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); TDNT - 6:758,948; v 1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence 2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence 3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication 3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank 3a1) to the Jewish high priests 3a2) to God 3a3) to Christ 3a4) to heavenly beings 3a5) to demons
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Finally, I agree that in some contexts PROSKUNEW can mean worship in the religious sense. However it is up to the individual who makes the argument in a particular instance to prove that this is the case or not the case.
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What the range of meanings indicates is that one cannot assume that PROSKUNEW means worship because they assert it means worship and an individual cannot assert it does not mean worship because of their bald assertion.
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Context is king.
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Agreed but versus such as Matt 14:33 is in context a miracle not just an honoring of the person
 
adrift:
Agreed but versus such as Matt 14:33 is in context a miracle not just an honoring of the person

Dan:
I don’t see how that makes a difference. Moses and other prophets performed miracles as well. Should they be worshiped as God? Jesus gave his Father credit for what he did.

NAB John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.
 
Ben_Masada said:
No, by knowledge of History.
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Five thousand years of Jewish Monotheism you said in an earlier post. And Catholics believe in one God too as I noted.

I believe in one God… - we say everyday at Mass in the Credo

You say you know this by history, but how do you know the history is correct? Just because people have believed somethying for 5000 years doesn’t make it correct. Catholicism looks to history too as do other relgions. The age of the Jewish faith doesn’t neccesarily make it currently correct.
 
humble_maid said:
It is unfortunate to say the least, when one speaks out against the Lamb of God who is without blemish. His death was not a punishment for his sins but that of all humanity. He was put to death for our transgressions not his. Please read Isaiah 53:1-12. If you believe the validity of the scriptures you quote and use against us then it goes without saying that the very scriptures we (catholic) quote to prove His innocence and His divinity are valid. I can offer you more scriptures if you are sincere enough to deliberate on them.

The truth can only be comprehended by those the Father chooses to reveal it to. Each one of us is free to believe or not to.
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**Jesus was not the lamb of God and he was not without blemish. Tell me, have you heard about the Goldern Rule? That’s the one which forbids doing unto others what we would not like they did unto us. Would you like me to call you a hypocrite and a liar? I didn’t think so. Would you like me to show up at your work place and mess with your way to make a living and cause you financial damages? I didn’t think so either. The gospel writers claim that Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and liars, and I am sure, they didn’t like it. So, what he did at the Temple front area to the money changers was to break the Golden Rule. Therefore, he was not without blemish.

You are right that Jesus’ death was not as a punishment for his sins, because no one dies as a punishment for his sins. We all die because we were born. We sin or not, we eventually die. Unless one is put to death for a crime. Jesus was put to death for political
reasons. Remember that plate on the top of his cross? That was the reason. Otherwise, it
would not be stated high and clear.

Regarding Isaiah 53, it has nothing to do with Jesus. It is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. Mind you that Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that you won’t have to assume that he could be a single individual. Read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.

Jesus was not Divine. Only God is Divine. Jesus was Jewish, and a Jew cannot be Divine.
For man to be Divine, only according to pagan mythologies. We are monotheistic.

I believe in the validity of the Scriptures I quote, and I do not quote them to attach you; I quote them to defend Judaism, whose image Christians distort it before the world by inserting Hellenistic inovations into it.

Last but not least, you are right about the truth, which is comprehended only by those whom God chooses to reveal it to. I want to give you two quotations; one from your NT and another from the Psalms. The first one is John 17:17 where we have Jesus saying that the truth is the Word of God. The other is in Psalm 147:19,20, where we read that His Word God gave it to Israel only and to no other people on earth. **
 
Canto said:
Five thousand years of Jewish Monotheism you said in an earlier post. And Catholics believe in one God too as I noted.

I believe in one God… - we say everyday at Mass in the Credo

You say you know this by history, but how do you know the history is correct? Just because people have believed somethying for 5000 years doesn’t make it correct. Catholicism looks to history too as do other relgions. The age of the Jewish faith doesn’t neccesarily make it currently correct.
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Canto, have mercy on yourself and think for a change! If we are not correct, Christianity is absolutely wrong. Don’t forget that the main claim of Christianity is to have its roots in Judaism. Never mind that this saying is completely untrue to us, because there is no Monetheism in the Trinity or Duality of Divinity.
 
Ben_Masada said:
Canto, have mercy on yourself and think for a change! If we are not correct, Christianity is absolutely wrong. Don’t forget that the main claim of Christianity is to have its roots in Judaism. Never mind that this saying is completely untrue to us, because there is no Monetheism in the Trinity or Duality of Divinity.
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The point I’m getting at is that you say that Jesus is not divine, that there’s mythology etc, etc. Well how do you know that Judaism is truth? What actual evidence do you have? How do you know that God is one for example, aside from people having believed it for ages?
 
Ben_Masada said:
Canto, have mercy on yourself and think for a change! If we are not correct, Christianity is absolutely wrong. Don’t forget that the main claim of Christianity is to have its roots in Judaism. Never mind that this saying is completely untrue to us, because there is no Monetheism in the Trinity or Duality of Divinity.
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Jehovah’s Witnesses retain their Jewish roots. We are like the Jews in the first century who accepted Christ as the Messiah. There is one God and he is the Father of Jesus.
 
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