Is Jesus God?

[Kamalayka]

Okay, in that case, Jesus’ Faith was incorrect and false, because as we all know, his Faith was Judaism.

Judaism is the religion HE started!!!

It was He who spoke to Abraham, who led Moses, who sent the prophets, and who is the Messiah.

Who is this Messiah?
Where does He come from?
What will He do on earth?
Whom does He represent?

** GOD.
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :byzsoc:
**

Who is God?
God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

God, Christ the Word of God, Holy Spirit the Love of God.​

Even as a Jew, you have to admit that at least one thing came true only through Jesus Christ:

All the Gentiles call on the name of the LORD!

 

[NotWorthy]

The action by me here is the same regardless to the sin, My Fathers word and my actions of love is my judge. How i live here will be the same to all sinners. rebuke the sin and not the sinner. I am commanded love my enemys.
I dont need to bind any sin on any one. I dont even know what sins are worse enough to be unforgivable or how different sins require different penance as the Church offers in confession.

I do know the adulterous woman was given no penance and was told to sin no more.
The man on the cross i assume a brigand, a murder, was he given admission?

I dont offer this to deny any man his right to bind sin an eye for an eye is legal but mercy is better to a truly repentant.

The priest in the confessional usually looks at the attitude of the sinner.

Example 1: “Father, forgive me, but I got drunk and slept with a woman yesterday. I know I shouldn’t have done it, but in the state of my inebriation, I didn’t have the will to deny her advances…”

Example 2: “Father, you should have seen me last night. I chugged down a load of whiskey and banged the first broad that crossed my path. Now, if you can just give me one of those ‘get of of jail free’ cards, I’ll just be on my way.”

Both confessors sinned and both asked for forgiveness. But only one of them is truly sorry for their actions. Note: I used an extreme differential between the two simply to illustrate my point. My priest has refused to forgive the person who asked for forgiveness for sleeping with the girl he was living with because he refused to move out and planned on continuing his actions.

I understand what you are saying and while i am not against it the people of the early church in the book of acts did not have the 70 plus books we do. They were sharing and guiding probably a lot of people that could not even read. No doubt the Church still does this for those who seek, thats what we each do as a parts of that body.

But the books tell us that the Church has the authority to make and un-make rules. It doesn’t say, “for those who can read, make it up as you think you should”.

In times past the Church has erred as you point out.
The earth was flat and to speak against this would have serious consequences. Today the earth is a globe and you wont be excommunicated for believing that.

I didn’t know you could be excommunicated for believing that. Galileo certainly didn’t have that as a reason for his problems with the Church. But that’s irrelevant.

If Yeshua (pbwh) tor the vial so we sinners could have a relationship with Our Father and we place intermediaries here then will that be bound in heaven?

I see in scripture Sadducees and Pharisees coming between Our Father and men.

That is the thing. Christ gave the Apostles the very same authority that He claimed the Sadducees and Pharisees were abusing. Its pretty clear what He meant. Personally for me, I don’t understand how I could follow Him without following the teachings of His Church. I’m not saying that’s the only way, but where I’m at currently, if I rejected the Church, I would be rejecting Him.

 

[Steven_John]

The priest in the confessional usually looks at the attitude of the sinner.

Example 1: “Father, forgive me, but I got drunk and slept with a woman yesterday. I know I shouldn’t have done it, but in the state of my inebriation, I didn’t have the will to deny her advances…”

Example 2: “Father, you should have seen me last night. I chugged down a load of whiskey and banged the first broad that crossed my path. Now, if you can just give me one of those ‘get of of jail free’ cards, I’ll just be on my way.”

Both confessors sinned and both asked for forgiveness. But only one of them is truly sorry for their actions. Note: I used an extreme differential between the two simply to illustrate my point. My priest has refused to forgive the person who asked for forgiveness for sleeping with the girl he was living with because he refused to move out and planned on continuing his actions.

Hmm IMO no one knows what is in a mans heart but G-d.
My punt is next time you have your parish priest over for dinner ask him which of the two cases in you example is truly repentant. My bet is he will agree only G-d knows and he is just doing the best he can on the information provided.

I have seen people laugh in times of grief make jokes of terrible things they have done because they are having trouble copping with their actions.

Your second scenario could well be that.

I dont doubt your PP will try to spend more time with people to help them be comfortable to discuss where they are at.

But in the end Our Father knows who sits where, (he knows who is repentant and who is not) even Our Brother Yeshua (pbwh) did not know this.

But Yeshua (pbwh) gave to us all the authority to forgive i dont delegate mine, and while accepting and respecting your right to delegate would encourage you to pray and exercise it.

But the books tell us that the Church has the authority to make and un-make rules. It doesn’t say, “for those who can read, make it up as you think you should”.

My point was that the word was not written and compiled as it is today. For any who genuinely want to grow from it and pray about it My Father will send the best of helpers for His will in your perceived needs.
In one of my Lenten groups i praised My Father for the word that He guides and instructs us from at a community and personal level.

No dear said one of My Sisters only priests can interoperate the word it is not our place.

For me when slumbering i am sure she was right but after being woken it is not the same.

She was adamant and the spirit inspired me to leave it to Him.

Well a couple of months later she was at our diocesan planning assembly, she sat at my table where i was with Leon a PP from another town. Leon offered in discussion how wonderful it is that G-d speaks to us each personally through scripture without a moments delay she purks up saying “ooh eye your right there Father” (she is a scott). I tell ya i could have cracked up laughing. This lady is lovely and i am blessed to share with her but i guess she will submit to a priest for all of her days.
The same spirit spoke through me and Leon, submission to His spirit IMO is on offer direct that is why Yeshua (pbwh) did what was done.
As said in other posts that does not deny that My Brother priests don’t help us, as iron sharpens iron so to do brothers sharpen brothers.

That is the thing. Christ gave the Apostles the very same authority that He claimed the Sadducees and Pharisees were abusing. Its pretty clear what He meant. Personally for me, I don’t understand how I could follow Him without following the teachings of His Church.

No arguing from me but in clarity for the light of this day. Yeshua (pbwh) gave authority to men who were following him.
My Church has been invaded by wolves at times, i dont see the authority in these men.
I have a very close at hand experience of a paedophile priest in my parish when i was a boy.
His position got him into our homes and parents gave him trust. I assume the Bishop would have judged him right for the position.
We now know before our dioceses he is alleged to have been a problem else where.
I understand the argument of ordination being above the acts of the man, but dont buy all of it.

I am dibbling again hey, sorry my point is the bishop did not know what was in Charlies heart despite Yeshua (pbwh) giving authority to the apostles.

I’m not saying that’s the only way, but where I’m at currently, if I rejected the Church, I would be rejecting Him.

I don’t reject Her i love Her so deeply but i dont think She is perfect, we together with Our Father are bringing Her to perfection.

If i dont see and help my mum with the splinter in her eye how will she help us get the splinters out of our eyes.

After i woke up G-d would inspire me to question and challenge, not on a soap box but with love. I would tell Him to “go away, they will burn me if i do that” He assured me He would not let it be that way and waited for me to do as He asked.

In my challenges i have been straightened, some of my challenges were result of being mis-informed by the Church priests and leaders past that had it wrong.
I have also in my life had priests lord beliefs they could not explain and shut me down by saying you just need faith.
I have had priests tell me it is good for us to differ, that they like that.

He has also inspired my to speak into a priest about his lack of faith, today he appears off the bottle in control and makes awesome blessing over the gifts.
Praise be to My Father one on one He does through me what i cant.
If i submitted to the priest where would we be?
Some fellow parishioner said he wont last he will leave the priesthood, my response is if that’s your faith then that’s what you will get.
I went to My Father and told Him i wanted my brother to stay a priest, but let it be your will not my will.
I know My Father can sort this out for Him its easy, here i am what would you have me do?

What an awesome Father we have let us **be found living in His spirit **and thus give life to the spirit of our Church.

The other way round is for the slumbering.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hmm IMO no one knows what is in a mans heart but G-d.

And yet Jesus trusted the Apostles so much that He gave them the awesome authority to Forgive and Not to Forgive men’s sins.

My punt is next time you have your parish priest over for dinner ask him which of the two cases in you example is truly repentant. My bet is he will agree only G-d knows and he is just doing the best he can on the information provided.

You don’t know my parish priest. I would bet my last nickel that he wouldn’t forgive the second person, for he has shown no sins of regret for his sins. If my priest had any doubts, he would simply ask and probe the man until he admitted that he was truly repentant or not. If not, then he would simply refuse absolution. My priest has told us that he has refused absolution before, although he wouldn’t give us the details.

I have seen people laugh in times of grief make jokes of terrible things they have done because they are having trouble copping with their actions.

Your second scenario could well be that.

As I mentioned, my priest would ask the man what he thought until he was absolutely sure the man was or wasn’t repentant.

I dont doubt your PP will try to spend more time with people to help them be comfortable to discuss where they are at.

But in the end Our Father knows who sits where, (he knows who is repentant and who is not) even Our Brother Yeshua (pbwh) did not know this.

Two points:
A) Yes, Jesus DID know that. What makes you say he didn’t.
B) Jesus gave this authority to men to Forgive Sins in His name.

But Yeshua (pbwh) gave to us all the authority to forgive i dont delegate mine, and while accepting and respecting your right to delegate would encourage you to pray and exercise it.

He DID NOT give us all authority. Jesus taught us that:
If we forgive the sins of others, then God will forgive us. And, of course, if we DON’T forgive the sins of others, God will not forgive us. No where in this passage does Jesus say that we have authority to forgive the sins of others in His Name.

My point was that the word was not written and compiled as it is today. For any who genuinely want to grow from it and pray about it My Father will send the best of helpers for His will in your perceived needs.
In one of my Lenten groups i praised My Father for the word that He guides and instructs us from at a community and personal level.

No dear said one of My Sisters only priests can interoperate the word it is not our place.

We can all interpret Scripture. We just can’t interpret it in a way that is contrary to Catholic teaching.

There is a huge difference, as it has helped to prevent mis-interpretation and falling into the many heresies that seem to spring up time and time again by those who trust their own authority.

For me when slumbering i am sure she was right but after being woken it is not the same.

She was adamant and the spirit inspired me to leave it to Him.

Well a couple of months later she was at our diocesan planning assembly, she sat at my table where i was with Leon a PP from another town. Leon offered in discussion how wonderful it is that G-d speaks to us each personally through scripture without a moments delay she purks up saying “ooh eye your right there Father” (she is a scott). I tell ya i could have cracked up laughing. This lady is lovely and i am blessed to share with her but i guess she will submit to a priest for all of her days.
The same spirit spoke through me and Leon, submission to His spirit IMO is on offer direct that is why Yeshua (pbwh) did what was done.
As said in other posts that does not deny that My Brother priests don’t help us, as iron sharpens iron so to do brothers sharpen brothers.

No arguing from me but in clarity for the light of this day. Yeshua (pbwh) gave authority to men who were following him.
My Church has been invaded by wolves at times, i dont see the authority in these men.
I have a very close at hand experience of a paedophile priest in my parish when i was a boy.
His position got him into our homes and parents gave him trust. I assume the Bishop would have judged him right for the position.
We now know before our dioceses he is alleged to have been a problem else where.
I understand the argument of ordination being above the acts of the man, but dont buy all of it.

I am dibbling again hey, sorry my point is the bishop did not know what was in Charlies heart despite Yeshua (pbwh) giving authority to the apostles.

I don’t reject Her i love Her so deeply but i dont think She is perfect, we together with Our Father are bringing Her to perfection.

If i dont see and help my mum with the splinter in her eye how will she help us get the splinters out of our eyes.

After i woke up G-d would inspire me to question and challenge, not on a soap box but with love. I would tell Him to “go away, they will burn me if i do that” He assured me He would not let it be that way and waited for me to do as He asked.

In my challenges i have been straightened, some of my challenges were result of being mis-informed by the Church priests and leaders past that had it wrong.
I have also in my life had priests lord beliefs they could not explain and shut me down by saying you just need faith.
I have had priests tell me it is good for us to differ, that they like that.

He has also inspired my to speak into a priest about his lack of faith, today he appears off the bottle in control and makes awesome blessing over the gifts.
Praise be to My Father one on one He does through me what i cant.
If i submitted to the priest where would we be?
Some fellow parishioner said he wont last he will leave the priesthood, my response is if that’s your faith then that’s what you will get.
I went to My Father and told Him i wanted my brother to stay a priest, but let it be your will not my will.
I know My Father can sort this out for Him its easy, here i am what would you have me do?

What an awesome Father we have let us **be found living in His spirit **and thus give life to the spirit of our Church.

The other way round is for the slumbering.

 

[Steven_John]

And yet Jesus trusted the Apostles so much that He gave them the awesome authority to Forgive and Not to Forgive men’s sins.
You don’t know my parish priest. I would bet my last nickel that he wouldn’t forgive the second person, for he has shown no sins of regret for his sins. If my priest had any doubts, he would simply ask and probe the man until he admitted that he was truly repentant or not. If not, then he would simply refuse absolution. My priest has told us that he has refused absolution before, although he wouldn’t give us the details.

As I mentioned, my priest would ask the man what he thought until he was absolutely sure the man was or wasn’t repentant.

no doubt Bro you would know him better than i, my point was that he would conceded only G-d truly knows a mans heart but if you say he would say he knows as G-d knows then i take you taking his word for it.

Two points:
A) Yes, Jesus DID know that. What makes you say he didn’t.

reckon i read in the bible a lady asked for her two sons to sit left and right at the eternal table and Yeshua (pbwh) said they were not his to give that His Father has prepared them for who He has chosen.

But i am not real good with reading and writing and you seem to have a strong teaching from The Church so if they say Yeshua (pbwh) did know then by your intermediary you may be right.

B) Jesus gave this authority to men to Forgive Sins in His name.

He DID NOT give us all authority.

Now my English may have messed us up here intended to say all men not all authority

I meant that all men following Yeshua (pbwh) can forgive sin

Jesus taught us that:
If we forgive the sins of others, then God will forgive us. And, of course, if we DON’T forgive the sins of others, God will not forgive us. No where in this passage does Jesus say that we have authority to forgive the sins of others in His Name.

Now we are on the same page this is what i have been trying to say all along but i see now what you were meaning in your difference in authority. We would need to go down the path of apostle succession. Given my last post not much point in that.

We can all interpret Scripture. We just can’t interpret it in a way that is contrary to Catholic teaching.

So the earth was flat and became a globe?

There is a huge difference, as it has helped to prevent mis-interpretation and falling into the many heresies that seem to spring up time and time again by those who trust their own authority.

Amen authority creates external unity but not always an accord of souls, and yes i need brethren to keep me straighter.

She was adamant and the spirit inspired me to leave it to Him.

oops meant her not Him Soz.

What an awesome Father we have let us **be found living in His spirit **and thus give life to the spirit of our Church.

B blessed be guides Bro, glad of your sharing and care for me

 

[NotWorthy]

I meant that all men following Yeshua (pbwh) can forgive sin

Yes, we can all forgive. But there are two levels of forgiveness.

The one Jesus teaches in the Synoptics, “forgive others and your heavenly Father will forgive you…” is one level. It has nothing to do with God forgiving the sinner. It only deals with the person who is asked to forgive others. For instance, just because I forgive my brother for taking money from me, doesn’t mean God forgives him. That forgiveness is between God and him…** and God’s forgiveness happens whether or not I forgive my brother**. Very important.

In John’s Gospel, the forgiveness of a sinner by the Apostles brings the resulting Forgiveness of that sinner by God. And what’s more, the refusal to forgive leads to God’s refusal to forgive that sinner.

Can you see the vast difference?

 

[NotWorthy]

Now we are on the same page this is what i have been trying to say all along but i see now what you were meaning in your difference in authority. We would need to go down the path of apostle succession. Given my last post not much point in that.

There is much point in going down that route.

Why would Jesus give someone authority knowing that it will die out with that group. Didn’t the need for forgiveness end with the death of the Apostles?

So the earth was flat and became a globe?

The Church teaches faith and morals. A priest, Father Capernicus, developed the theory that Galileo used, some 20 years before Galileo. The Church had no problem with this theory. Galileo, however used this to claim that the Bible was full of errors and couldn’t be trusted. I know I’m oversimplifying, but it wasn’t the flat earth that got him in trouble.

 

[NotWorthy]

What an awesome Father we have let us **be found living in His spirit **and thus give life to the spirit of our Church.

B blessed be guides Bro, glad of your sharing and care for me

Amen and well said, my Brother! May His Peace and Love always be with you!

 

[Steven_John]

Yes, we can all forgive. But there are two levels of forgiveness.

The one Jesus teaches in the Synoptics, “forgive others and your heavenly Father will forgive you…” is one level. It has nothing to do with God forgiving the sinner. It only deals with the person who is asked to forgive others. For instance, just because I forgive my brother for taking money from me, doesn’t mean God forgives him. That forgiveness is between God and him…** and God’s forgiveness happens whether or not I forgive my brother**. Very important.

In John’s Gospel, the forgiveness of a sinner by the Apostles brings the resulting Forgiveness of that sinner by God. And what’s more, the refusal to forgive leads to God’s refusal to forgive that sinner.

Can you see the vast difference?

Brother i love you very much, i enjoy your posts for they hep me grow.

I said i did not want to go here but given your posts i guess i should try to explain what i see.

I understand what you are saying about the two levels of forgiveness and how people use scripture to substantiate it.

Lets get to the paedophile priest, but generically.

I forgive him in fact i love him and want for him all that is open to me.
But you assert he has G-ds authority not to forgive my sins.

Sure G-d can hold his sins against him regardless to my forgiveness.

But because he is ordained i am subject to his authority and have no way out. He has G-ds authority. No one is above My Father and His word is unchanging. You assert he has My Fathers authority.
**
So i am dammed by G-d because priest would not forgive my sin.**

The only way My Father can go to be consistent in your scenario is to rebuke my forgiveness of the priest and damm us both.

Not my image of My Father he wants all of His in the light.

But if you are right, (assuming i understand you) better the priest be given the forgiveness i offer and only i be dammed.

Why would Jesus give someone authority knowing that it will die out with that group. Didn’t the need for forgiveness end with the death of the Apostles?

No i never said that it would die out, this authority is alive and well and lives in those who follow Yeshua (pbwh). I just offer this authority is not necessarily in a priest just because men say he is ordained. I don’t deny it is in many ordained priest. If ordained men faultlessly can judge with My Fathers authority priest would not have done what he did or at least would forgive sins without condition of his special penance.

As representative of the Church he teaches faith and morals?

These faith and morals are not approved by My Father or My Brother and they are not of My Fathers true church, they are of my church community in error. She and I are responsible to learn and grow in truth so She becomes the light of authority. Not authority given to darkness.

The Church teaches faith and morals. A priest, Father Capernicus, developed the theory that Galileo used, some 20 years before Galileo. The Church had no problem with this theory. Galileo, however used this to claim that the Bible was full of errors and couldn’t be trusted. I know I’m oversimplifying, but it wasn’t the flat earth that got him in trouble.

Fair enough i was not around then. What you say here makes sense. Has She ever apologised for anything?

She has publicly buy the pontiff office.

All i am saying is authority is given from My Father through Yeshua (pbwh). Do you think Yeshua (pbwh) would give My Fathers authority to this priest?

If i ask My Father for an egg He gives me all the eggs He wills in my perceived need. He will not give me a stone. He loves me and praise be to Him for Yeshua (pbwh) even as a sinner i am blessed with peace that i can come before My Father.

Personal testimony, who on earth could give me the strength to love the priest we spoken of? If it were not for My Fathers love i would be like many of my brethren who want that priest brought to justice. Ironically those seeking justice seemingly live in the church, those who want purification and mercy for him live in The Spirit.

May G-d forgive me for any error in my post or if i have not loved you as i should, it is a hard discussion for me, but it is great for us to have it.
May having it glorify Our Father in our love for each other.

 

[NotWorthy]

Brother i love you very much, i enjoy your posts for they hep me grow.

I said i did not want to go here but given your posts i guess i should try to explain what i see.

I understand what you are saying about the two levels of forgiveness and how people use scripture to substantiate it.

Lets get to the paedophile priest, but generically.

I forgive him in fact i love him and want for him all that is open to me.
But you assert he has G-ds authority not to forgive my sins.

Sure G-d can hold his sins against him regardless to my forgiveness.

But because he is ordained i am subject to his authority and have no way out. He has G-ds authority. No one is above My Father and His word is unchanging. You assert he has My Fathers authority.
**
So i am dammed by G-d because priest would not forgive my sin.**

If I went to a priest and confessed my sins sincerely and resolved to try to refrain from repeating this sin, and an S.O.B. priest (pardon my French) refused to absolve me (for whatever personal faults he may or may not have for that is irrelevant to my confession), then I would simply shake the dust off my shoes, re-examine my conscience, go to another priest, and repeat my confession. If this priest absolves me of my sin, then I am forgiven and absolved by God.

You may say that God forgave my sin over and above the first priest’s refusal, and that may be true. But wouldn’t God see the true persistence in me to seek his forgiveness by going to a different priest. He would appreciate the desire I have to be reunited with the Church and seeking to be obedient to His Will. It would be like the parable of the woman hounding the judge to decide a court case in her favor. The judge finally just gives in. God wants that in us!

The only way My Father can go to be consistent in your scenario is to rebuke my forgiveness of the priest and damm us both.

I don’t see how that is so. Does my response up above help with this issue, or should I re-examine your question?

Not my image of My Father he wants all of His in the light.

He does want and desire us in His Light ----- AMEN!!! And He draws us constantly to that light. But we’ve got to choose to enter and remain in that light. My desire for a good confession helps me to:
a) mourn my sins
b) remain meek and humble
c) get good counseling from another person - one who can see my faults from a different perspective, bringing new light to me.

But if you are right, (assuming i understand you) better the priest be given the forgiveness i offer and only i be dammed.

I’m not sure I follow you. Whether you and I forgive the priest of his (generically speaking) dreadful sins is irrelevant. The priest is only forgiven by God when He’s repented and sought God’s Forgiveness, the normative means being confession.

No i never said that it would die out, this authority is alive and well and lives in those who follow Yeshua (pbwh). I just offer this authority is not necessarily in a priest just because men say he is ordained. I don’t deny it is in many ordained priest. If ordained men faultlessly can judge with My Fathers authority priest would not have done what he did or at least would forgive sins without condition of his special penance.

I think the key is to read Acts and Paul’s pastoral letters. There is an authority that goes with the “laying on of hands” of those who are sent to spread the Gospel (this is what Catholics call Holy Orders or ordination). It is separate of the “laying on of hands” of those who have received the Holy Spirit (this is what Catholics call Confirmation - another Sacrament). The early Church also taught this, as is evidenced in the letters of St. Clement of Rome in the 1st century (circa 95AD) and St. Ignatius in the early 2nd century (110AD). Both of these Church Fathers were known by various Apostles. Clement knew St. Paul and was the 3rd successor to Peter as Pope in Rome. Ignatius was a disciple of the Apostle John. Both of these Fathers taught of the authority that is passed on in the priesthood.

As representative of the Church he teaches faith and morals?

You mean the pedophile priest? Yes. If he’s still allowed to say a Mass, the Mass is valid. His baptisms are valid. His Confirmations are valid. His marriages are valid. You see, its not his holiness that makes these Sacraments valid, its God’s Holiness!

These faith and morals are not approved by My Father or My Brother and they are not of My Fathers true church, they are of my church community in error. She and I are responsible to learn and grow in truth so She becomes the light of authority. Not authority given to darkness.

And this is true if the priest (whether he is a sinful man or not for that is irrelevant) is teaching something contrary to the Church’s teachings. Anyone who is consciously teaching something contrary to the Church, while claiming to represent the Church, is spreading darkness.

Fair enough i was not around then. What you say here makes sense. Has She ever apologised for anything?

What did the Church do wrong with Galileo?

All i am saying is authority is given from My Father through Yeshua (pbwh). Do you think Yeshua (pbwh) would give My Fathers authority to this priest?

Yes, He did. In the parable of the Mustard Seed, Jesus taught that there would be sinners in the Church’s hierarchy… “and the black birds will gather in the trees…” (Paraphrasing). Look back at the Old Testament. God’s promises remained even through the sinfulness of numerous people - from Noah to Caiaphas.

If i ask My Father for an egg He gives me all the eggs He wills in my perceived need. He will not give me a stone. He loves me and praise be to Him for Yeshua (pbwh) even as a sinner i am blessed with peace that i can come before My Father.

Personal testimony, who on earth could give me the strength to love the priest we spoken of? If it were not for My Fathers love i would be like many of my brethren who want that priest brought to justice. Ironically those seeking justice seemingly live in the church, those who want purification and mercy for him live in The Spirit.

May G-d forgive me for any error in my post or if i have not loved you as i should, it is a hard discussion for me, but it is great for us to have it.
May having it glorify Our Father in our love for each other.

It’s hard to love those whom we place on a pedestal and have fallen. Its much easier when we realize that we are asking others to love us even though we have many faults. I think that’s why God wants us humble. Its easy to overcome these hurdles when we are humble.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Look - you make Catholicism out to be false - mythology etc but can’t prove Judaism at the same time. We believe different things, that’s life and beliefs must be respected, that’s cool.

Jesus set up the Catholic Church and ushered in the new covenant in his blood. You are Rock and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it - said Christ to St Peter - the first Pope.

**And you make me think that Jesus was a Catholic. Was he? Can you prove it? If Jesus was not Jewish and his Faith Judaism, the whole Chritianity can collapse.

If you think that the first Pope was Peter, how is it that Christians started being called Christians only with Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone? (Acts 11:26)

Okay, we do believe different things, and beliefs must be respected. No problem, I respect your beliefs.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

God is the one and only Lord, AMEN!!! And you bring up a wonderful point - Judaism is the Faith of Jesus. And when we get to the parable of the Wicked Tenants, we see what happens to Judaism. This is also hinted at in the Parable of the Prodigal Son.

What precisely do you mean happens to Judaism when we get the parable of the Wicked Tenants, Would you enlighten me?

 

[NotWorthy]

What precisely do you mean happens to Judaism when we get the parable of the Wicked Tenants, Would you enlighten me?

The owner (God) of the Vineyard (Israel) would remove the wicked tenants (the Pharisees and Sadducees) and give the tending of the Vineyard over to new Tenants (the Apostles and the Church).

 

[twb1621]

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Ah, Ben, still at it I see…

And you make me think that Jesus was a Catholic. Was he? Can you prove it? If Jesus was not Jewish and his Faith Judaism, the whole Chritianity can collapse.

**Jesus founded what became known as Catholicism but you know that anyway. **

If you think that the first Pope was Peter, how is it that Christians started being called Christians only with Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone? (Acts 11:26)

The first pope was Peter who was well established as the spokesperson for the apostles as scripture supports and the one chosen to be the vicar of Christ. Jesus chose Paul to preach His word to the Gentiles because Paul related to them just as Saint James was chosen by our Lord to establish the seat in Jerusalem because he was best to relate to the Jews.

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**The designation of Christians was first used in Antioch referring to those who followed Christ. Like Jew and Jewish… Christ and Christian…. It had nothing to do with anything Paul suggested but rather the gentiles. Makes sense…. The reference to Catholicism was made a short (relatively speaking) time later and over time the title was adopted. **

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Okay, we do believe different things, and beliefs must be respected. No problem, I respect your beliefs.

**That is an awesome agreement. **

 

[Canto]

And you make me think that Jesus was a Catholic. Was he? Can you prove it? If Jesus was not Jewish and his Faith Judaism, the whole Chritianity can collapse.

Christ was none to happy with what was going on. Money changers, people being labeled uncleansed for no apparent reason, getting rebuked for not washing your hands, lack of charity etc.

Why would a Jewish man set up a Church, a new covenant in his blood, rebuke some of the religious leaders of the day etc.

If you think that the first Pope was Peter, how is it that Christians started being called Christians only with Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone? (Acts 11:26)

Things don’t begin only once they have a name.

Jesus built the Church on the rock of Peter and he was the first Bishop of Rome (the B of R is nicknamed Papa by Italians - us English folk get Pope) and there he was crucified, up side down. His successor as Bishop became the next Pope. Benedict XVI is the current Bishop of Rome.

Okay, we do believe different things, and beliefs must be respected. No problem, I respect your beliefs.

 

[Steven_John]

If I went to a priest and confessed my sins sincerely and resolved to try to refrain from repeating this sin, and an **S.O.B. priest (pardon my French) **refused to absolve me (for whatever personal faults he may or may not have for that is irrelevant to my confession), then I would simply shake the dust off my shoes, re-examine my conscience, go to another priest, and repeat my confession. If this priest absolves me of my sin, then I am forgiven and absolved by God.

Not such a great idea, a boy would have a hard time travelling 100kms to find another priest. This also confuses Our Fathers authority. **I see Our Fathers authority as absolute, not differing, not changing. If His authority is given to the priests it will be the same from each one who has it. **Shopping for a priest who will forgive me would mean His authority is inconstant or that the refusing priest actually doe not hold it.

You may say that God forgave my sin over and above the first priest’s refusal, and that may be true. But wouldn’t God see the true persistence in me to seek his forgiveness by going to a different priest. He would appreciate the desire I have to be reunited with the Church and seeking to be obedient to His Will. It would be like the parable of the woman hounding the judge to decide a court case in her favor. The judge finally just gives in. God wants that in us!

Then after finding a priest that will for give me the other priest decision would change?

He does want and desire us in His Light ----- AMEN!!! And He draws us constantly to that light. But we’ve got to choose to enter and remain in that light. My desire for a good confession helps me to:
a) mourn my sins
b) remain meek and humble
c) get good counseling from another person - one who can see my faults from a different perspective, bringing new light to me.

Amen i been saying it all along

I’m not sure I follow you. Whether you and I forgive the priest of his (generically speaking) dreadful sins is irrelevant. The priest is only forgiven by God when He’s repented and sought God’s Forgiveness, the normative means being confession.

yes you are right, unless by your understanding another priest has given him forgiveness.
If that is the case and i am dammed due to his unforgiven better he go to heaven and me to hell than both of us going to hell. You have agreed Our Father wants us all, if He cant have me at least He will have one of us.

I think the key is to read Acts and Paul’s pastoral letters. … Both of these Fathers taught of the authority that is passed on in the priesthood.

Yes i understand this as the RCC incorporates, its implication is what we are working through.

You mean the pedophile priest? Yes. If he’s still allowed to say a Mass, the Mass is valid. His baptisms are valid. His Confirmations are valid. His marriages are valid. You see, its not his holiness that makes these Sacraments valid, its God’s Holiness!

Again i understand the Church teaching and Our Fathers holiness being uncorrupted by human action. Our discussion is about the authority he has for Our Father to forgive me or not. I was digging at the priests “teaching faith and morals” example is the true witness.

And this is true if the priest (whether he is a sinful man or not for that is irrelevant) is teaching something contrary to the Church’s teachings. Anyone who is consciously teaching something contrary to the Church, while claiming to represent the Church, is spreading darkness.

Amen

What did the Church do wrong with Galileo?

i have already conciedet to you that in Galileos time the Church would not have had a problem with any one publicly saying the Church was wrong and G-d made a globe. The Church has given appologys for its wrongs in the past. I think recently at the turn of the melinium the pontiff (pbuh) did so. I guess it was not the first time She too is called to be humble.

Yes, He did. In the parable of the Mustard Seed, Jesus taught that there would be sinners in the Church’s hierarchy… “and the black birds will gather in the trees…” (Paraphrasing). Look back at the Old Testament. God’s promises remained even through the sinfulness of numerous people - from Noah to Caiaphas.

Yes it teaches there will be bad in it but i dont think that means the black birds will hold His authority. It warns me that there will be priests that dont belong. I take this to want me to discern not to submit to these. I go further that if you are ignorant you will not be in error.

It’s hard to love those whom we place on a pedestal and have fallen. Its much easier when we realize that we are asking others to love us even though we have many faults. I think that’s why God wants us humble. Its easy to overcome these hurdles when we are humble.

Yep its my forgiven faults that help me love the priest. If i was to i would discern my sin is smaller than his. Truth is i dont really know i may have what i perceive a little sin but in others it may have grown far larger than the sins of priest we speak of. If i am any better than this priest it is only by Our Fathers doing for me in Our Brothers giving to me. I think i would need to ask Him to be sure.

Bless ya pray well and stay well

PS i will pardon your slagging the mother of the priest and our French brethren but encourage you to refrain in future. In my culture we do the same and see it as an expression of feeling not judgement. My middle eastern friends are culturally different and dont understand it as you and i do. Some take offence for G-d and it reflects on your fellow believers to be in error. Christians usually aspire to be all things to all people and we are fast becoming a multi cultural globe.

 

[Ben_Masada]

The owner (God) of the Vineyard (Israel) would remove the wicked tenants (the Pharisees and Sadducees) and give the tending of the Vineyard over to new Tenants (the Apostles and the Church).

**Galatians 4:21-31 would have been a better match. Then, as for the title you could write: Replacement Theology.

Hey, NotWorthy, I think it’s about time to start a new strategy to evangelize the Jewish People. Replacement Theology is no longer a good policy. We have got a little smarter than that.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ah, Ben, still at it I see…

And you make me think that Jesus was a Catholic. Was he? Can you prove it? If Jesus was not Jewish and his Faith Judaism, the whole Chritianity can collapse.

Jesus founded what became known as Catholicism but you know that anyway.

 

[JP_Marat]

Quote:
Jesus founded what became known as Catholicism but you know that anyway.

RESPONSE:

Actually not. Jesus believed himself to be an end-time prophet who would return during the life time of his immediate follers. Hence there would be no need to establish a new church. As Acts shows, they remained a very observant sect within Judaism awaiting his return. But the Jerusalem community was crushed by the Romans. Paul’s communities survived and, in time, became a “church.” Thus Paul, not Jesus, founded Catholicism a we know it.

Quote:
The first pope was Peter who was well established as the spokesperson for the apostles as scripture supports and the one chosen to be the vicar of Christ.

RESPONSE:
No. Peter’s role as leader of the apostles declined. The apostles elected James, Jesus’ brother, to be the first leader (bishop)of the Jerusalem community (nascent Catholic church), not Peter. The first “pope” in the West was Linas. The first pope in the East was Evodius who was Peter’s first successor.

Quote:
Jesus chose Paul to preach His word to the Gentiles because Paul related to them just as Saint James was chosen by our Lord to establish the seat in Jerusalem because he was best to relate to the Jews.

RESPONSE:
No. Jesus never met Paul. The Apostles “sent” Paul to the Gentiles since he was very unpopular with the Jewish converts.

 

[NotWorthy]

PS i will pardon your slagging the mother of the priest and our French brethren but encourage you to refrain in future. In my culture we do the same and see it as an expression of feeling not judgement. My middle eastern friends are culturally different and dont understand it as you and i do. Some take offence for G-d and it reflects on your fellow believers to be in error. Christians usually aspire to be all things to all people and we are fast becoming a multi cultural globe.

What in the world are you talking about, here?

I will promise not to slag mothers of priests and French, but I’m not exactly sure what “slagging” is (although I have an idea… it certainly sounds derogatory) and I have no clue why it entered the conversation.