Is Jesus still on the Cross?

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distracted said:
any intelligent Catholic (and even some who aren’t so cerebrally “blessed” :hypno: :hmmm: ) know that God is above Mary…

its a no-brainer…

(of course Protestants insult our intelligence every day… when they say we put Mary over God…).

Sigh!! :yawn:
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I do have a question about Mary. Why would someone want to go through Mary instead of Christ in our requests and petitions before God the Father?
 
Reformed said:
I do have a question about Mary. Why would someone want to go through Mary instead of Christ in our requests and petitions before God the Father?
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Not instead of … in addition to.

Catholics pray to the Father in Jesus’ name, as you do … and also to the Son and Holy Spirit individually, if we feel so inclined.

We may, additionally, ask Mary and others who have gone before us to join their prayers to ours before the Father’s throne, just as we ask fellow Christians on Earth for their prayers.

There are some written prayers addressed to Mary or a saint directly, asking for help – but even when those are prayed, the proper Catholic understanding is that the saint will be presenting the prayer to God, not “going over His head” somehow to do what we want. Of course, just as God worked miracles through Moses, Elijah, Peter, Paul, and others, He might permit a particular saint or angel to be the direct source of whatever help He sends, but it would still ultimately be coming from Him.

Usagi
 
Reformed said:
I do have a question about Mary. Why would someone want to go through Mary instead of Christ in our requests and petitions before God the Father?
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I have been asked similar questions as this before. My friend would say I don’t want to talk to Mary, I want to talk to God himself.

In answer to this I would say to bear in mind that Catholics do not pray to Mary alone; the Our Father to my knowledge is said to God the Father and there are prayers to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The Rosary is said to Mary and of course there are many other prayers.

That however does not answer the question , why pray to anyone other than God at all? I believe there are many reasons.

Firstly I would say because God asks us to. God honours those in heaven by assigning them a role in heaven and that role pertains to drawing those on earth to Christ. Those in heaven do not cease to witness to Christ because they are there, they continue to do so. By praying to the Saints we acknowledge the honour that God has bestowed on them.

Secondly, pray is not solely an individual experience and Jesus is not an individual experience. He asks us to commune with each other in prayer and that does not cease when someone dies. When we pray to Mary and the Saints we commune with those in heaven. I believe we can also commune with our dead loved one’s. I don’t mean like a seance, we don’t directly talk to them, but we commune in a spiritual sense and can remain in communion with them. Those who have died in communion with Christ are not completely cut off from loved one’s and fellow believers on earth. We don’t know how much they know about us or in what sense, but while we are physically separated from them, the bonds of love are not severed when one dies. If the Apostles and Mary where on earth today, I would say the vast majority of believers would want to talk to them. particularly Mary, about what Christ was like. We can still do that through prayer. Those in heaven have not ceased to have meaning in our lives as they have died. They are alive in heaven and have a God given role in heaven.

I also said to my friend I mentioned above; if those in heaven do not pray for us, why should we pray for each other? Can people not just pray for themselves in the assurance that God will answer them? As someone said in another post, does God change his mind if more people pray for something? It’s very difficult to pin down an exact definition as to how prayer actually works, but we know it does and by praying to Mary and the Saints, we come to know Jesus more intimately and as a him as community as opposed to individuals. We are also brought closer to those who are closest to him.
 
Reformed said:
I do have a question about Mary. Why would someone want to go through Mary instead of Christ in our requests and petitions before God the Father?
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Mary has a special role in salvation … She is not our savior & no Catholic believes that (unless maybe some really messed up individual…).

Anyway… we could get to Heaven if we never gave Mary one thoguht… but we would be missing out on a lot that she has to give us… It is a long story what all i mean… All i can say is that she has done great things for me, emotionally. She is our perfect mother…

and for one who didn’t have a perfect earthly mother… that means an awful lot…

She shows me things about the condition of my relationships with humans… We are to have good relations with humans as well as God… and that is NOT something that comes easy to me. Maybe it is that Jesus couldn’t care less about our human relationships… except he wants us not to sin, that is…

Jesus accepts us as we are… Mary wants us to change when it comes to how we deal with others… Of course, this is just my own personal opinion… I am not stating all this as being what the Church teaches… just my personal experience… subjective as that experience is often prone to be…
 
Usagi said:
Absolutely not.

He died once, rose from the dead, ascended into Heaven, and can never again be harmed in any way.

Rather, He graciously allows us who come along later to participate in His once-for-all sacrifice.

Under the appearances of bread and wine, we are permitted to consume the Lamb That Was Slain, just as the Israelites ate the sacrificed lamb in the Passover meal.

Likewise, we are permitted to join Him in making the one acceptable offering to the Father. Our earthly altars become one with the heavenly altar, and Jesus our High Priest acts through His earthly priest to let us experience and participate in that heavenly moment.

Just as Malachi the prophet revealed, in these latter days even the Gentile nations are enabled to make a pure offering to God – the one and only truly pure offering, namely the broken Body and shed Blood of His Son. And the Mass (including its Eastern counterparts, more properly termed the Divine Liturgy) is indeed offered “from the rising of the sun to its setting,” whether you take that to mean from East to West throughout the world, or at every moment of time.

Usagi
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There is still the claim for an “unbloody sacrifice” though, which contradicts the requirement of the shedding of blood for the remission of sin.

The consuming of the Passover lamb does not allow for the consumption of blood either, although there is the shedding of blood before the Passover meal.

One of the reasons why God used blood was that the blood-shedding requirement gives a picture of just how awful sin is. The Passover and the Jewish temple sacrifices were bloody events, as was Jesus’ one Sacrifice on the Cross.
 
brkn1 said:
There is still the claim for an “unbloody sacrifice” though, which contradicts the requirement of the shedding of blood for the remission of sin.

The consuming of the Passover lamb does not allow for the consumption of blood either, although there is the shedding of blood before the Passover meal.

One of the reasons why God used blood was that the blood-shedding requirement gives a picture of just how awful sin is. The Passover and the Jewish temple sacrifices were bloody events, as was Jesus’ one Sacrifice on the Cross.
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The ‘unbloody’ sacrifice does not contradict the requirement of the shedding of blood for the remission of sin. ‘Unbloody’ does not mean ‘bloodless,’ however I understand the word ‘unbloody’ may denote this. ‘Unbloody’ is used to describe the manner in which Christ is now contiually offered for us. He is not as human, scourged at the pillar and he does not die over and over again as an innocent man, which was the significance of Christs human sacrifice. He was innocent of the crimes he was accussed of yet willingly laid down his life. As God, he could have chosen to redeem man in another way but did not. The blood sacrifice in that sense has been paid as a sinless human does not have to willingly give their life in order to save others.

The ‘Unbloody’ sacrifice is that described in Hebrews. As Christ rose from the dead body and soul to heaven, he now mediates between God and man with blood that is living, blood that cannot die. We could ask ourselves if God simply wanted a blood sacrifice, why would the sacrifice of animals not have sufficed for all eternity? God could have created another sinless human to sacrifice for mankind. He did not as the sacrifice of a sinless human would not have saved all mankind. The blood sacrifice had to be the blood of God himself; the reasons pertain to the Incarnation which I talked about in another post.

The ‘Unbloody’ sacrifice is Christs blood and therefore distinctive of all other blood as the blood of Christ became life which is infused into all those who believe in him, continually purifying us from sin and continually flows from the altar of God. Therefore, we are brought to life by it, born in sin yet by that blood we live sinlessly and in communion with God. It is not dead blood but living blood. Christs earthly death was among other things, a sign of the greater sacrifice that was to happen in heaven for all time. That is what I understand by the ‘Unbloody sacrifice.’
 
To answer the question is Jesus still on the cross, the answer is easy. No he is not on the cross. He has risen from the dead 2,000 yrs ago and is now sitteth at the Right Hand of the Father just as the Nicene Creed states.

To any Catholic who says anything differently, you are at odds with the teachings of the Catholic Church. I suggest you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Bible
 
Mannyfit75 said:
To answer the question is Jesus still on the cross, the answer is easy. No he is not on the cross. He has risen from the dead 2,000 yrs ago and is now sitteth at the Right Hand of the Father just as the Nicene Creed states.

To any Catholic who says anything differently, you are at odds with the teachings of the Catholic Church. I suggest you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Bible
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It’s not that I have the intention of being at odds with the teachings of the Catholic Church; what I was attempting to explain, perhaps very badly and I accept that the terminology I use may leave something to be desired, is that in a sense you could say Christ is still on the Cross because he has risen to heaven, and is therefore offered for us eternally in the unbloody manner. The Church teaches this and also teaches that the sacrifice of the cross was not a one off event in history. I suppose it depends on your perception of the eternal sacrifice of Christ. I don’t have a strong opinion as to ‘yes’ or ‘no’ in answer to the question, ‘is Jesus still on the cross’ due to the fact that it depends on how you understand eternal sacrifice.

Of course I’m willing to accept any ammendments to anything I have said.🙂
 
Mannyfit75 said:
To answer the question is Jesus still on the cross, the answer is easy. No he is not on the cross. He has risen from the dead 2,000 yrs ago and is now sitteth at the Right Hand of the Father just as the Nicene Creed states.

To any Catholic who says anything differently, you are at odds with the teachings of the Catholic Church. I suggest you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Bible
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i suggest you read St. Matthew 25:31-46
 
minkymurph said:
Of course I’m willing to accept any ammendments to anything I have said.🙂
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what is your take on the idea of Jesus being on the Cross still because his followers are??

Whatever is done to his followers, he tells us, is done to him…
 
Muslim_Woman said:
Salaam/peace

I thought , Christians believe Jesus (p) is in heaven now ?
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He is but He lives in us also… through Communion… and our commitment to him…

Jesus said whatever we do to the least of his brethren we do to him… Pretty scary… but also pretty awesome… that he so identifies with us… 🙂
 
distracted said:
what is your take on the idea of Jesus being on the Cross still because his followers are??

Whatever is done to his followers, he tells us, is done to him…
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ooooh! Good question; where does one start?

Firstly I would say I’m into metaphysics and I would say things physically happen in a metaphysical way if that makes sense. Jesus said to take up a cross and follow him however not all of us die a martyrs death and those who did where not all crucified. Therefore, the ‘cross’ to me has a deeper meaning than the physical wooden cross that Christ was crucified on. It is both a metaphor and a reality.

As Jesus said, ‘a slave is not greater than his master,’ when Jesus followers are wounded for his sake, he said it was as wounding him and Christ is physically present with us in our suffering. I would not attempt to explain how Christ experiences physical wounding as risen, but scripture does mention how Christ is wounded again when his followers are wounded for his sake. He is also wounded when we turn away from him and fail to love in the way he loves. Ultimately, sin wounds the soul and wounds the love of God as sin is failure to love in the way Christ loves and deep hurt can be akin to physical pain. Again, I would not attempt to explain how this physically happens but I believe it does and Christ shares in our pain as if it where being done to himself. We in a sense can be scourged as he was and when this happens to love Jesus loves, it is being done to him.

Interestingly, Revelation speaks of Christs return and those who ‘pierced him’ will beat themselves in lamentation. I would say this scripture is referring to those who literally pierced him as human, and those who pierce the risen Christ. It could be argued this is also a metaphor but if we are already sharing in the heavenly life of Christ, and are in union with him, you could say the crucifixion never stopped happening. This is how I would see things but I don’t know if I’m explaining it very well.
 
minkymurph said:
Interestingly, Revelation speaks of Christs return and those who ‘pierced him’ will beat themselves in lamentation. I would say this scripture is referring to those who literally pierced him as human, and those who pierce the risen Christ. .
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not sure what you mean by risen Christ… How can one pierce Christ once he is risen/in Heaven… ?or do you mean that when one hurts his followers, he hurts Jesus?

that is what St. Matthew 25;31-46 is about… how whatever we do to others we do to Jesus (God). I t hink this is a hard concept to incorporate into our lives - very difficult to live out. When people do evil to us, they don’t look much like Christ… & we feel like lowering ourselves to their level… but we are to see them as Christ (esp Christians…)…

that was mostly the point i was focusing on… i feel it needs to be addressed because… well… people just don’t seem to live by this at all… myself included… 😦
 
distracted said:
not sure what you mean by risen Christ… How can one pierce Christ once he is risen/in Heaven… ?or do you mean that when one hurts his followers, he hurts Jesus?

that is what St. Matthew 25;31-46 is about… how whatever we do to others we do to Jesus (God). I t hink this is a hard concept to incorporate into our lives - very difficult to live out. When people do evil to us, they don’t look much like Christ… & we feel like lowering ourselves to their level… but we are to see them as Christ (esp Christians…)…

that was mostly the point i was focusing on… i feel it needs to be addressed because… well… people just don’t seem to live by this at all… myself included… 😦
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The way I would understand the scripture you are referring to is, it is a service to Jesus himself if we do good to those he loves. If we do them harm, we harm Jesus himself. Imagine someone hurting your children. You would rather be hurt yourself than see them hurt and it is more painful to see your children hurting than hurt yourself. That is how God feels about us. In terms of the risen Christ, the Church talks about ‘wounding’ Christ. As I said, I wouldn’t attempt to explain how it physically happens but in inadequate human language, Jesus ‘hurts’ when we are hurt and when we sin in a manner akin to the pain of the physical wounds he experienced as human.

I don’t really understand what you mean by people doing evil not looking much like Christ. As I would understand it, we all created in the image of God and when people hurt us deeply, we are asked to remember they are God’s creation and that God desires to bring them to heaven. It is possible to divorce the person from the act they commit but easier said than done!

The only way we can live in a Christ like way is by the infusion of grace and loving as Christ loves is something we have to work at all our lives. Jesus did not promise us an easy life! It is grace however that prevents us from being eaten up inside when others cause us harm. That does not mean we are not entitled to be angry or hurt as a Priest once told me if we are not, it tells the person what they did didn’t really matter. We do feel like lowering themselves to their level, because we are human. We may be followers of Christ but we are not him.
 
minkymurph said:
I don’t really understand what you mean by people doing evil not looking much like Christ.
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hasn’t a person professing to be Christian ever done soemthing to you that was far from Christian?? That is waht i mean… It is not easy knowing what to do in any given siutaiton like that… a lot of times, we are caught off guard and say things we know we shouldn’t… (hence “loweirng ourselves”…)…
 
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