Is Jesus the Archangel Michael?

[Chong]

My Brother-In-Law is a Seventh Day Adventist and has been visiting us for the last couple months. He converted to Seventh Day Adventist about 15 years ago so we’ve been having a few discussions regarding his beliefs. The latest discussion was about Jesus being Michael the Archangel. He referenced Daniel 8:11-25, 10:13-21, 12:1, Jude 1:9, 1 Thes 4:16, and Joshua 5:14-15 as “proof”.

The only thing I could not easily counter is Daniel 12:1. He says I’m making too many assumptions that can’t be proven.

Any suggestions?

Jesus is not Michael the Archangel.
The citations given are in reference to an archangel. Before the coming of Christ God used to send angels to represent him. Sometimes there were angels referred to as the “Angel of the Lord” who was different from the other Angels. He was rightly Christ as he would not refuse obeisance.

On the Contrary, citations that proof that Jesus was different from an Archangel are very many. Here are a few:

1. Heb:1:2: Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
2. Heb:1:5: For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
3. Mat:25:31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

 

[ajcstr]

Look at Jude 1 where Michael does not dare rebuke Satan himself yet Jesus rebukes Satan in the desert. Not sure if he would have a response to that or not.

 

[GregoryMatthews]

Wait a minute: that doesn’t sound right. Seventh Day Adventists are Trinitarian and believe in the divinity of Christ. Despite their anti-Catholicism and odd obsession with end-time prophecy and speculation, SDA’s are Christians.

If he actually believes this, he is going against what the SDA community teaches.
adventist.org/fileadmin/adventist.org/files/articles/official-statements/28Beliefs-Web.pdf

There is a common belief among SDAs that Jesus is Michael. This is not a fundamental belief. No one is required to believe it. Yes, SDAs also are Trinitarian and believe that Jesus Christ is fully God. Are these two position in conflict?

They are not in conflict once you understand that the idea that Christ is Michael is not saying that Christ is a created angel. It is only saying that Christ as a member of the Godhead is in charge of the Angels.

Are the SDAs who say this wrong? Perhaps. Just do not confuse this idea with the idea that SDAs teach that Christ was a created angel. They do not.

 

[JMM1957]

I worked with some longtime Jehovah’s Witnesses many years ago, and we got into many discussions. The way I understand it is that they believe that Jesus and Michael the archangel are the very same being. Michael was a created angel and had a beginning, he was God’s (Jehovah’s) first creation, and all creation then came to be through him. As God’s plan for salvation unfolded, Michael then took flesh, by being born of the virgin Mary and was named Jesus, his earthly name. Just as Michael the archangel and the good angels did battle in the heavens and defeated the devil and his angels, so Jesus as Michael on earth conquers the devil and sin by his death on the cross and his resurrection. They back up their belief using many of the verses of Scripture quoted above by others. If I have misrepresented the truth about the JW’s belief’s in who Jesus is, please let me know, but I believe this is how they explained it to me.

 

[Pythons]

There is a common belief among SDAs that Jesus is Michael. This is not a fundamental belief. No one is required to believe it. Yes, SDAs also are Trinitarian and believe that Jesus Christ is fully God. Are these two position in conflict?

They are not in conflict once you understand that the idea that Christ is Michael is not saying that Christ is a created angel. It is only saying that Christ as a member of the Godhead is in charge of the Angels.

Are the SDAs who say this wrong? Perhaps. Just do not confuse this idea with the idea that SDAs teach that Christ was a created angel. They do not.

How many archangels are there in SDA understanding?

Ellen White
Rebellion originated with Satan. Notwithstanding the exalted position which he occupied among the heavenly host, he became dissatisfied because he was not accorded supreme honor. Hence he questioned God’s purposes and impugned his justice. He bent all his powers to allure the angels from their allegiance. The fact that he was an archangel, glorious and powerful, enabled him to exert a mighty influence

Ellen White, Review and Herald, Jan 14, 1909
We are to be partakers of knowledge. As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven

Combine the above ( and a host of other equally odd quotes ) with the unfortunate fact that Ellen White was militant in her teaching that Jesus was capable of vice & had He sinned “God” would have eternally annihilated Christ so that He would have eternally been as if He never was - …

I think this is a pretty big problem.

 

[GregoryMatthews]

How many archangels are there in SDA understanding?

Ellen White
Rebellion originated with Satan. Notwithstanding the exalted position which he occupied among the heavenly host, he became dissatisfied because he was not accorded supreme honor. Hence he questioned God’s purposes and impugned his justice. He bent all his powers to allure the angels from their allegiance. The fact that he was an archangel, glorious and powerful, enabled him to exert a mighty influence

Ellen White, Review and Herald, Jan 14, 1909
We are to be partakers of knowledge. As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven

Combine the above ( and a host of other equally odd quotes ) with the unfortunate fact that Ellen White was militant in her teaching that Jesus was capable of vice & had He sinned “God” would have eternally annihilated Christ so that He would have eternally been as if He never was - …

I think this is a pretty big problem.

Thank you for your comment. I will comment first about Ellen White. She was a human being. She was NOT in fallible.

I do not normally intend to come to this forum and quote from Ellen White. But, I will make an exception in this case as I think it might be helpful to see what she said about herself.

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. The Review & Herald, July 26, 1892.

In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in Him is no variableness, or shadow of turning. Letter 10, 1895.

Both of the above may be found on page 37 of SELECTED MESSAGES.

I agree that EGW was not infallible. So, If you want to say that she was wrong in some belief that she held, I do not have a problem with that. As to any specific belief, I might agree with you and I might not. But, that would e a different issue. EGW was not infallible. She was a human being. In my thinking, God alone is infallible.

 

[GregoryMatthews]

Pythons, Let us take a look at another aspect of SDA belief and EGW–The doctrine of the Trinity.

The SDA Denomination arose out of a religious movement of William Miller, a Baptist. Miller remained a Baptist until his death and never became what is not the SDA Denomination. In fact, he never accepted certain of the doctrinal beliefs that SDAs now hold.

Those early people came from a number of denominations. EGW came fro a Methodist background, The Methodists were Trinitarian. Her husband, as did a number of others in what became the SDA denomination, came from a group, which no longer exists, known as the Christian denomination. [NOTE: This was a specific denominational group.] The Christian denomination was NOT Trinitarian. This was only one element in the group from which the SDA denomination developed. The result of this is that historians can find in the early days of the developing days of the SDA denomination a doctrinal trend that was not Trinitarian. This can also be attributed to Ellen White. A valid argument could be made as to the extent to which it existed in various people. But, that is another issue. The reality is that to some extent it existed in those early days and in the thinking of Ellen White, who was only human.

With the passage of time, as Ellen White developed in her thinking she moved to a Trinitarian position. The SDA Church today is Trinitarian. That does not mean that you can not find a SDA person who is not Trinitarian. But, the official position of the SDA Church is Trinitarian.

As Ellen white developed in her thinking, here is a statement that she made:

In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. Desire of Ages, page 530.

.

 

[GregoryMatthews]

Pythons, for a more in-depth study of what SDAS believe in regard to the Trinity I will suggest you go to the following two books:

Paul Peterson & Rob McIver, Editors. BIBLICAL & THEOLOGICAL STUDIES ON The TRINITY, Avondale Academic Press, 2014, 251 pages.

The above book contains the contributions of a dozen authors.

Norman R. Gulley, SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY: GOD AS TRINITY. 2011, Andrews University Press, 676 pages.

The above book is one of a series of four that is being published on Systematic Theology… Three have been published and the fourth in in the process of being published.

 

[GregoryMatthews]

Pythons, here is a simple statement of the SDA position on the nature of Christ that has been our position for years:

Trinity 2
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

Son 4

God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God’s power and was attested as God’s promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. ( John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.

NOTE: In July, the SDA Church made some minor changes in the wording of its beliefs in an attempt to clarify some points. I do not have those minor changes and the above reflects the doctrinal position that the SDA Church has had for years.

 

[GregoryMatthews]

Pythons asked:

How many archangels are there in SDA understanding?

The short answer is one.

In SDA thinking, the problem of sin began with a rebellion in heaven by a created angel who is called Lucifer/Satan, who led a rebellion against God. Lucifer wanted to be the one in charge.

You may not see things exactly as SDAs see them. I am fine with that. But, this should give you the background to the answer to your question.

Thank you for asking. I appreciate the opportunity that you are giving me in this forum to respond to questions that you have about the SDA Church.

I differ in my understanding with some Catholic doctrine. But, I am not here to attack Catholic beliefs. I am not here to change them. IF you have a question as to SDA beliefs, ask. I will attempt to respond.

 

[GregoryMatthews]

My apology for a typo in a post made at 3:12. It should say: " . . . what is now the SDA denomination."

the typo reads “not” instead of “now.”

 

[Pythons]

Hi Gregory, thanks for responding & giving that information.

You say that the short answer for my questions about how many archangels SDA believes exist is “one”…
…I provided a quote from Ellen White where she says, as a matter of fact, Lucifer was also an archangel.
…There appears to be evidence she “saw” ( through her prophetic power ) other archangels as well?

Ellen White
Listen to their voices as they sing loud hosannas and as they wave the palm branches of victory. Rich music fills heaven as their voices sing forth these words: “Worthy, worthy is the Lamb that was slain and rose again forevermore. Salvation unto our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.” And the angelic host, angels and archangels, covering cherub and glorious seraph, echo back the refrain of that joyous, triumphant song saying, “Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever” (Rev. 7:12). {Mar 329.3}

That’s a plural.

It’s just something I noticed when looking into SDA believe about the Trinity.

Would you agree that Ellen White, as a Methodist, accepted ( believed ) in the Trinity?
…Then as she was influenced by her anti-Trinitarian husband & his friends - wrote against the trinity?
…Would you agree with this?

As evidence I would offer what Ellen’s husband said about Ellen’s teaching when she was in the prophetic power.

James White ( Ellen’s husband )
"We invite all to compare THE TESTIMONIES of the Holy Spirit THROUGH Mrs. White with the word of God. And in this we do not invite you to compare them with your creed. That is quite another thing. The TRINITARIAN may compare them with his creed, and because THEY DO NOT AGREE WITH IT, **CONDEMN them ** the testimonies of Mrs. White ]. The Adventist Review & Sabbath Herald June 13, 1871

Would you agree that the above indicates that according to those most familiar with Ellen White as a person…
…And those most familiar with what she was affirming in the capacity of her prophetic utterances.
…Understood those utterances as condemning ‘The Trinity’ - & that in effect it was the Holy Spirit doing the condemning Via Ellen White?

All we Catholics have is Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition & the Councils…
…All of which, at least to me, supports Catholic teaching on the Trinity.

 

[GregoryMatthews]

Pythons, I am always glad to have a civil conversation with people. In such I take no offense with any honest question–which I have always seen your posts as being honest. In return I will attempt to be honest and transparent with you.

Your point about plural archangels and EGW is new to me. I do not challenge your quotation from EGW as you clearly have a knowledge of her. As I am not certain as to the context where she made that statement, I do feel somewhat limited in my ability to respond to that specific statement. So, I will respond more generally.

SDAs have never given much concern with archangels, their number and function. It has simply never been of any major interest to them. Their sole point of focus has been to respond to the objection that in saying that Christ was MIchael we were saying that Christ is a created angel. Prior to reading your quotation, I would have said that I was aware of any SDA statement in regard to the number of archangels. It simply has not been any major point of interest to us.

NOTE: I have reached the ripe old age of 74 years, and I retired from full-time work in 2014. In my ripe old age, I have some minimal age-related vision loss. I blame this on some errors that I make in typing. E.G. an example of this is my posting in an earlier post where I wrote the word “not” when I meant to write “now.” Please bear with me on this and if I say something outrageous, please ask me to confirm and give me a chance to correct my error. Thank you.

Also, I do not believe that people like to read long posts. So, I will likely continue to do as I am now doing- make several short responses to your questions. If I fail to address some point that you would like me to address, call me on it.

 

[ffg]

Welcome rabarker and Gregory!

Interesting thread

With regard to the subject, I think if Jesus was any being other than ( or also to) God made man, that would not have been too low on the totem pole of information he passed along to the Apostles.

This would also go against the logic that love is central to God in creating, as a created Michael, who God chooses to then ‘be’, would obviously not have the freedom to choose to love God back.

Take care,

Mike

 

[GregoryMatthews]

Pythons asked:

Would you agree that Ellen White, as a Methodist, accepted ( believed ) in the Trinity?
…Then as she was influenced by her anti-Trinitarian husband & his friends - wrote against the trinity?
…Would you agree with this?

1. I have to believe that EGW as a Methodist believed in the Trinity. When she became involved in the Millerite movement she was probably young. She was born on November 26, 1827. Depending upon when you want to start her involvement with William Miler I would suggest that she was in her mid to late teens. I do not know how well she understood the doctrine of the Trinity at that age.

Frankly, in my work as a Federal chaplain, I find that people from many denominations, to include adults, do not have a good understanding of the Trinity. I include in this SDAs, Catholics and other Protestants.

1. I am willing to agree that EGW was influenced, probably, by her husband and certain others who came from the Christian Connection background.
2. As I have read her writings, I have come to the conclusion that EGW grew progressively in her personal understanding of the Trinity and that at her death she had a more Biblical understanding of the Trinity than she had during her earlier years.
3. You will find today, people who claim (some truthfully and some falsely) to be SDA who are anti-Trinitarian. Regardless of that, the SDA denomination today is Trinitarian.

I will be back again in a bit, to see if I should have more to say. But, I need to leave for a bit.

 

[GregoryMatthews]

Pythons asked:

Would you agree that the above indicates that according to those most familiar with Ellen White as a person…
…And those most familiar with what she was affirming in the capacity of her prophetic utterances.
…Understood those utterances as condemning ‘The Trinity’ - & that in effect it was the Holy Spirit doing the condemning Via Ellen White?

All we Catholics have is Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition & the Councils…
…All of which, at least to me, supports Catholic teaching on the Trinity.

1. My understanding of Catholic doctrine is that both the Catholic church and the SDA church are in agreement on what the Bible says about the doctrine of the Trinity. I am not well enough informed as to the historical development of that doctrine in the Catholic
   Church to comment on what you have called “Sacred Tradition & the Councils.”
2. I think that it would be helpful for me to comment at this point as to the role that it is proper for EGW to have played in the early days of the SDA denomination. If you want me to do so, I could quote from her writings. But, for now I will not do so.

In common parlance people often think of a prophet as one who tells the future, and in connection with EGW as one who would determine doctrinal beliefs. This view is wrong in both SDA thinking and as EGW saw her role. She held up the Bible to be the ultimate test of all, to include her writings. She was not the authority over the Bible. The Bible was the authority over her.

We believe that God gave her administrative guidance over the developing days of the SDA Denomination. We are in education, health care and publishing due to the administrative guidance that she gave us. In those areas we would not be today what we are if it were not for her council.

We did not get our foundational beliefs from her–Sabbath, Second Advent, etc. We got them from our understanding of what the Bible taught. I understand that you will disagree with me as to what the Bible actually taught on some of these doctrines. That is not my point. My point is that our foundational beliefs came from the Bible.

I expect that you will respond with specific teachings and ask me where these are in the Bible. Actually I will agree with you. We do have some teachings that I will not say are clearly described in the Bible. As a result, these are not denominational requirements.

E.G. Many SDAs in the United States are some form of vegetarian. This is not a requirement. Many are not vegetarian. Further in other countries there are fewer vegetarians than in the U.S. Our basic teaching is to attempt to live healthfully. As part of this many are vegetarian. But, under our basic teaching, it would be foolish for one to attempt a vegetarian diet under circumstances where it would not be possible to obtain such a healthy diet

You are probably well enough informed to know that EGW has something to say about coffee. The SDA Church that I attend serves coffee to those who want it at their Sabbath services.

My point is this: In looking at Ellen White, we see her as a human being whom we believe that God used to benefit us in the developing days of our denomination and, rightly understood, who still has something of value to say to us today. Regardless, she is not the authority over the Bible. She is to be judged by the Bible. To a Seventh-day Adventist, the Bible should be the ultimate authority over all else, to include what I say.

I hope that this helps. Continue to dialogue with me as you wish.

 

[Pythons]

Gregory, THANK’s for your Service! I also was in Military…
…Thanks also for your cordial responses.
…I’ll look your posts over & may ask a few more questions.

 

[GregoryMatthews]

Pythons:

I have 38 years of Federal service outside of the SDA denomination. My major exposure to the Roman Catholic church has been to its priests. They have bent over backward to respond to my requests for information about their church. One gave me a book of Canon Law, probably now outdated. Due to some of my official duties, I maintained an up to date publication that directed how Roman priests should perform their duties in a Federal institution.

As a hospital chaplain, when our full-time priest left, and we were unable to maintain part-time coverage, I worked directly with a local priest for 6-months, to get Extraordinary Ministers into our hospital to visit our Catholic patients.

By the way, as a Seventh-day Adventist clergyperson, for 38 years I regularly conducted services on Sunday. The SDA position is in favor of Saturday. That does not prevent me from holding a service on Sunday. Please note that in the Federal government, clergy can neither be hired nor retained without the permission of their denomination. My denomination has the legal right to fire me, as does the RC Church their priests, when they wish. I have personally seen such happen when the denomination wanted their clergy out.

I am not here to attack RC beliefs and practices. I am not here to change your beliefs and practices. I have read many comments in this forum regarding SDAs. I am simply here to dialogue with you if that is what you want. I do not want you to think I am deceptive. I am who I am.

While I do not expect that we shall agree on some issues. I like talking to people of faith.

 

[Pythons]

Hi again Gregory,

I don’t think anyone Catholic or otherwise has a beef with SDA’s and the things they believe about the Sabbath…
…Catholic’s hold Mass every Saturday which defaults into those Catholics “going to Church”.
…On Saturday ( what you would consider the Sabbath ).

To be frank about the Trinity issue I believe the whole issue can be reduced to a nutshell…
…Catholics believe that Jesus is “God The Son” & that Jesus was slain before the foundations of the world.
…In other- words Catholics believe that Salvation was only ever a matter of “when” ( never IF )…

We would point to nearly 100 explicit texts that are unequivocal in affirming there was no possibility of failure in Jesus’ work…
…These texts, we believe, make it impossible the possibility of Christ "sinning & loosing His Salvation.
…To add to this we also have explicit statements in Councils which forbid the belief that Christ was capable of vice.

Luke 24,24
And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

This is Christ “straightening out” those who questioned the outcome of what the Law & Prophets said would take place…
…We believe Scripture was absolute when in the Old Covenant we read:

Isaiah 35,4
Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; **he will come **and save you.Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert

**Daniel 2,45
**Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: AND the dream is certain, AND the interpretation thereof sure.

These are only a couple Scriptures out of around 100…
…The following statements appear to be saying something different.

Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
It is VITAL for every Christian to know that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. “In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted.”

Can you confirm that the SDA’s have “given up” on the belief that it’s vital for Christians to “know”…
…That Jesus Christ ‘might have sinned’ - that the heaven sent gift could have been lost?

 

[GregoryMatthews]

Pythons:

Thank you for continuing to ask, when You want more of an answer than I have given. My short, brief, response is that it appears to me, based upon what you have stated, that there is a difference between Roman Catholic doctrine and SDA belief.

We believe that Jesus Christ was fully God and in that aspect was sinless.

We believe that Jesus Christ was fully man, and in that aspect lived a sinless life. But, in living as a human, the temptations of Christ were real and as such, Jesus could have fallen for them and sinned. If that had happened, our salvation would have been lost. This is a view that is not held by all Christians. However, it is held by Christians other than SDAs. We are not alone in tis aspect of belief.

We see the life and death of Christ as more than just a payment of a debt. We see it as a demonstration of the possibility of humanity being faithful to God. Just as the 1st Adam fell, Christ as a so-called 2nd Adam gained the victory over sin and became both our Saviour and our example.

Yes. God’s plan of salvation was made long ago in eternity. At the cross, it became finished. God, in the person of Jesus Christ had conquered and demonstrated the victory over sin.

So how could this be if Jesus Christ was fully God? Our idea is that in his battle with sin, he did not use his divine powers as God. Rather he depended upon the same powers available to us in our human life. No, I am not saying that we humans are God. I am simply saying that the power that God gives to us humans to overcome sin are what Jesus Christ used in his human life.

Then, on that Sunday morning, when Jesus Christ came out of the tomb he regained his use of the divine powers that he had as God.

I did not come her to be evasive. Push me when I do not give you an answer to your questions. I hope this answer provides that.