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Patrick_Bestall
Guest
Where does it say that Peter was the son of John and
not Jonah?
not Jonah?
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tobinatorstark
Guest
You are right the Douay-Rheims says great fish instead of whale
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NotWorthy
Guest
When Jesus meets Peter (and Andrew) in John 1:42 - Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Cephas" (which is translated Peter).
I assumed that John and Jonah were Greek and Hebrew renderings of the same name, but I’ve been told that’s not the case.
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patrick457
Guest
Which reminds me. The Alexandrian textual tradition has John, while the Byzantine (incl. Textus Receptus) has Jonah; perhaps a case of harmonization.
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Patrick_Bestall
Guest
If you were told that John and Jonah are notdifferent renderings of the same word, who told you? What authority? What source can I check? Please and thank you.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Why, my brothers and sisters on CAF were able to verify this! forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=231080&highlight=jonah
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Bruno_Schulz
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**
Quite to the contrary it’s a teaching about the in 2 Kings 14,25 mentioned Prophet Jonah or Jonas. It’s been written between the 4th and 3dr Century before Christ and can not be taken historically, but as extraordinary similitude.
The town of Ninive was 612 before Christ destroyed and was the archetypical symbol of anti-God way of living. But Ninive converted to God quite contrary to Jerusalem, within a single day after a sermon of a Prophet. See Jonah 3:4 and following, where miracles follow miracles, in which God forces Jonah to serve God for the benefit of others. In the end God shows mercy about His rebellious servant Jonah.
The Book Jona is an important message of Gods all barriers breaking will for salvation of His human race. Mark 12:41 and Luke 11:29-32 points that out.
Matthew even goes even in Mat 12:40 as far, as to point with the story of Jonah in the fish, at Jesus death and resurrection.
We did not jet quite understand fully some of the Holy Bible. But beware of looking at a single word in the bible as simply a “a humorous novella”. Every word there, has a very deep and everlasting meaning.
**
It would be a impermissible simplification to say; “the Book Jonah is a humorous novella”It’s a humorous novella
Quite to the contrary it’s a teaching about the in 2 Kings 14,25 mentioned Prophet Jonah or Jonas. It’s been written between the 4th and 3dr Century before Christ and can not be taken historically, but as extraordinary similitude.
The town of Ninive was 612 before Christ destroyed and was the archetypical symbol of anti-God way of living. But Ninive converted to God quite contrary to Jerusalem, within a single day after a sermon of a Prophet. See Jonah 3:4 and following, where miracles follow miracles, in which God forces Jonah to serve God for the benefit of others. In the end God shows mercy about His rebellious servant Jonah.
The Book Jona is an important message of Gods all barriers breaking will for salvation of His human race. Mark 12:41 and Luke 11:29-32 points that out.
Matthew even goes even in Mat 12:40 as far, as to point with the story of Jonah in the fish, at Jesus death and resurrection.
We did not jet quite understand fully some of the Holy Bible. But beware of looking at a single word in the bible as simply a “a humorous novella”. Every word there, has a very deep and everlasting meaning.
**
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Yahuwehsaves
Guest
In the gospels Yahushua says " just as Jooah was in the belly of the great fish for 3 days and 3 nights, so the Son of Man will be the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 night. He wasn’t saying this as a story, He was stating fact. Shalom, Thomasine
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patg
Guest
There is no indication at all that this reference assumes a fact. It is perfectly normal for anyone to reference a fictional story as an example to use in their teachings.
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Bruno_Schulz
Guest
The Evangelists are not “anyone”
and the bible does not narrate "fictional stories"
and the bible does not narrate "fictional stories"
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patg
Guest
Yes it does - fiction is a perfectly valid vehicle for revelation. And referring to fictional stories as examples is a perfectly valid teaching method. The church dogmatically states that the truth contained in scripture is presented in many different literary forms, not all of which are literal history.
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NotWorthy
Guest
This is accurage. Jesus does not introduce each parable with, “Here’s a little parable about…”. He taught very powerful messages using fiction.
I don’t think its important to determine the historical accuracy of Jonah. For instance, doesn’t the book tell us that Ninevah was so large, that it took 3 days to walk from end to end? Do you have any idea how big that would make it?
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Bruno_Schulz
Guest
There is a huge difference between fiction and simile, allegory, comparison, metaphor, parable, similitude - whatever you might call it,
but Jesus NEVER told fiction.
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Annc
Guest
Parables and allegories may or may not be fictional or may contain fictional elements. They are used in the Bible to teach a moral or religious lesson. It is not necessary for them to be “literally” true in every sense in order for them to contain religious or moral truth. Myths are used in the Bible in the same way. It is not necessary to believe in the literal interpretation of the creation story to believe that God is the Creator of all creation. That God is the Creator is the important part of the story.
Similes, comparisons, and metaphors are literary techniques and are not necessarily fact or fiction but a way to get a point across. When Jesus said “I am the vine and you are the branches” that was either a metaphor or simile (can’t remember) and he was teaching a religious lesson but he wasn’t saying that he was actually a vine. Are you saying that all of Jesus’s parables were factually true or that they could have been true or that the lesson he was teaching was THE TRUTH?
Debating whether these things are fact or fiction really misses the point of the story. What is the author trying to say? What is God trying to say?
God bless.
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patg
Guest
Saying something is fiction (or myth, parable, etc) merely names the literary form of the writing; it does not define the truth or falsehood of the story. Saying something is fiction does say it is a lie (if that is what you are trying to say by your statement that “Jesus NEVER told fiction”).
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Bruno_Schulz
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**In special I referred to the statement: It’s a humorous novella (further above). But even fiction is not to be found in the Bible.
Every word is of very deep meaning. Otherwise Jesus would not have referred to the allegory, of Jonas in he fish.
In my younger years, I preferred to literalize all these metaphors, as long as I didn’t understand it fully, for my father warned me never never to take anything I don’t understand at once, as “fiction”, for God – the Holy Spirit knows why it’s written here. Defenitely not for entertainment!
Many things I didn’t understand when I was young (I’m 70 now), often arrived suddenly and I knew. Many fiends of mine told the same. That’s how is is when you grow old.
Let me tell a funny thing to point that out.
If you would say to a foreigner or someone from another planet:
Yesterday it rained cats and dogs; he’d be quite surprised, that on our planet these animal fall from our clouds. You didn’t tell a lie though.
However “Jonah and the Whale” is far nearer to the truth than our cats and dogs.
**
Every word is of very deep meaning. Otherwise Jesus would not have referred to the allegory, of Jonas in he fish.
In my younger years, I preferred to literalize all these metaphors, as long as I didn’t understand it fully, for my father warned me never never to take anything I don’t understand at once, as “fiction”, for God – the Holy Spirit knows why it’s written here. Defenitely not for entertainment!
Many things I didn’t understand when I was young (I’m 70 now), often arrived suddenly and I knew. Many fiends of mine told the same. That’s how is is when you grow old.
Let me tell a funny thing to point that out.
If you would say to a foreigner or someone from another planet:
Yesterday it rained cats and dogs; he’d be quite surprised, that on our planet these animal fall from our clouds. You didn’t tell a lie though.
However “Jonah and the Whale” is far nearer to the truth than our cats and dogs.
**
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Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**we sometimes experience or witness incidents, that nobody ever would believe. More though we often so, we have a presumptions that finally end up with thoughts and insights, that are very hard to tell to others.
In such cases, we use similes to explain.
In the case of the renitent Jonah, this whale easily could have been another trap Jonah got into - and when he got back to reason, he was able to escape. True in any case. If then Jonah had told others "oh - this was a trap, I tell you… exactly as if I’d been in a whale. Well - in fact, I really was then.
However: God - the Holy Spirit who inspires the Bible and through chosen people had it written down, would NEVER admit any wrong word to appear in the Bible. Never any fiction either.
Let’s remember when we where very young, and simply didn’t get this or that word of the Bible. Well, we just accepted it such without understanding precisely. Later, at some point of our life, we suddenly understood.
That’s what Jesus meant, when He said: I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven! (Math 18:3)
**
In such cases, we use similes to explain.
In the case of the renitent Jonah, this whale easily could have been another trap Jonah got into - and when he got back to reason, he was able to escape. True in any case. If then Jonah had told others "oh - this was a trap, I tell you… exactly as if I’d been in a whale. Well - in fact, I really was then.
However: God - the Holy Spirit who inspires the Bible and through chosen people had it written down, would NEVER admit any wrong word to appear in the Bible. Never any fiction either.
Let’s remember when we where very young, and simply didn’t get this or that word of the Bible. Well, we just accepted it such without understanding precisely. Later, at some point of our life, we suddenly understood.
That’s what Jesus meant, when He said: I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven! (Math 18:3)
**
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mystagogia
Guest
When the Pharisees came to Our Lord with adultress to see if he would condemn her, he drew figures in the sand, before he came up with an astonishing command, “Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone.” It is a contradictory command to the crowd in that it cannot be followed.
Speaking like this, drawing figures, using parables and allegories, employing “hard sayings” - Our Lord made use of so many rhetorical strategems to convey his points.
To acknowlege this is not so say he was deceptive; he did not speak in formal treatises with the Aristotalian precision. He made effective rhetorical use of “figures”, and “signs” of all kinds.
In our colloquial parlance to say that something is “a fiction” is dismissive of it. Yet truth is conveyed in literature. Shakespeare wrote nothing but fiction, and some of the truest words in the English language, at the same time.
Speaking like this, drawing figures, using parables and allegories, employing “hard sayings” - Our Lord made use of so many rhetorical strategems to convey his points.
To acknowlege this is not so say he was deceptive; he did not speak in formal treatises with the Aristotalian precision. He made effective rhetorical use of “figures”, and “signs” of all kinds.
In our colloquial parlance to say that something is “a fiction” is dismissive of it. Yet truth is conveyed in literature. Shakespeare wrote nothing but fiction, and some of the truest words in the English language, at the same time.
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Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**But had Jesus instead talked in formal treatises with the aristotalian precision, He would have had to teach a whole Bible for every weightily sentence He spoke and the world couldn’t hold this literature (Joh 21,25).
Take your sample:
They brought an adulteress before Jesus. Jesus first didn’t say a word. Sitting there, He drew figures in the sand. That meant a lot; like “it is again same thing… You accusing others in a matter of no concern to you, looking at the speck of sawdust in other’s eye, paying no attention to the plank in your own eye!”
Now; penalty for adultery was death by stoning. Had Jesus said; “forget your law and leave her alone” as they hoped, Jesus would clearly have broken the law and they had received a handle to accuse and sue Jesus – crucify Him before His time had come.
But again, Jesus read their character and defeated their intrigues by not teaching them (us) in “aristotalian precision” right and wrong, but instead He said just one sentence: Joh 8,7 - “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
Now they couldn’t do either. Neither stone her, nor accuse Jesus of breaking the law. And they left ashamed.
That’s the reason, why Jesus made few words, but such He told us a world more, than if He had in “aristotalian precision” given a lecture of 10 pages nobody would listen to, and the worse had happened.
**
Take your sample:
They brought an adulteress before Jesus. Jesus first didn’t say a word. Sitting there, He drew figures in the sand. That meant a lot; like “it is again same thing… You accusing others in a matter of no concern to you, looking at the speck of sawdust in other’s eye, paying no attention to the plank in your own eye!”
Now; penalty for adultery was death by stoning. Had Jesus said; “forget your law and leave her alone” as they hoped, Jesus would clearly have broken the law and they had received a handle to accuse and sue Jesus – crucify Him before His time had come.
But again, Jesus read their character and defeated their intrigues by not teaching them (us) in “aristotalian precision” right and wrong, but instead He said just one sentence: Joh 8,7 - “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
Now they couldn’t do either. Neither stone her, nor accuse Jesus of breaking the law. And they left ashamed.
That’s the reason, why Jesus made few words, but such He told us a world more, than if He had in “aristotalian precision” given a lecture of 10 pages nobody would listen to, and the worse had happened.
**
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