Is Joseph Smith a prophet like Mohammed?

[Servant19]

No it’s not an immediately failed question because unlike Muslims when they produce this challenge I have no idea what Bahai have in mind. The Muslim has in mind that the non believer should produce a verse or surah of equal beauty and glory to that of the Quran. They believe after all the very language of the Quran proves it’s divine origin. Do you have the same idea about the challenge of the Quran?

Perhaps you should try again and actually have a conversation Tony, instead of being a smart-alec.

The challenge is to write a chapter that can inspire a person to sacrifice their entire life dedicated towards putting what they have read into deeds, and for those deeds to be evidently praiseworthy and bring light into the world.

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[b_ulmen]

The challenge is to write a chapter that can inspire a person to sacrifice their entire life dedicated towards putting what they have read into deeds, and for those deeds to be evidently praiseworthy and bring light into the world.

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Couldn’t Smith be credited with doing just such a thing?

 

[Servant19]

Couldn’t Smith be credited with doing just such a thing?

While I do indeed have a high regard for the fruits of the Mormon faith and for Joseph Smith himself, I do believe that he indicated that he was not a Messenger of God like Jesus and Muhammad, and his revelation was discovered, not directly received from God.

He also does not see himself as equal with Jesus, whereas Muhammad did.

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[RebeccaJ]

While I do indeed have a high regard for the fruits of the Mormon faith and for Joseph Smith himself, I do believe that he indicated that he was not a Messenger of God like Jesus and Muhammad, and his revelation was discovered, not directly received from God.

He also does not see himself as equal with Jesus, whereas Muhammad did.

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Smith saw himself as greater than Jesus, in some ways. Personally, it is my opinion that had his life not been cut short he would have eventually claimed to be a god.

That aside, he absolutely taught and believed he was a messenger of God and Mormons today believe all of their prophets to be God’s mouthpiece.

 

[Servant19]

Smith saw himself as greater than Jesus, in some ways. Personally, it is my opinion that had his life not been cut short he would have eventually claimed to be a god.

Could you give a quote for his claim to be greater than Jesus please Rebecca?

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[RebeccaJ]

Could you give a quote for his claim to be greater than Jesus please Rebecca?

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I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I (History of the Church, Vol.6, pp. 408-09).

 

[Servant19]

I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I (History of the Church, Vol.6, pp. 408-09).

Thankyou

I think it’s debatable that he thought himself actually greater in rank than Jesus. This passage is clearly talking about Church unity and how the new church he has heralded is more united than traditional Christianity. And we can be honest to say that it is true.

I personally don’t see this passage as indicative that he saw himself as God, or greater than God. Maybe I am mistaken but the paragraph is not so clear cut

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[RebeccaJ]

Well he was delusional in that regard. Any who opposed him were excommunicated along with a campaign to impune character. And his church life, I mean while he was alive, was less than 20 years. What he established began splintering before he was murdered, and did splinter dramatically at his death, and continues to do so today.

Anyway, every argument you put forth in favor of the Baha’i prophet, Islam’s prophet, and scriptures, have been put forth by Mormons for their own prophets and scripture. I see these all as very similar if not entirely the same.

 

[Servant19]

Well he was delusional in that regard. Any who opposed him were excommunicated along with a campaign to impune character. And his church life, I mean while he was alive, was less than 20 years. What he established began splintering before he was murdered, and did splinter dramatically at his death, and continues to do so today.

Anyway, every argument you put forth in favor of the Baha’i prophet, Islam’s prophet, and scriptures, have been put forth by Mormons for their own prophets and scripture. I see these all as very similar if not entirely the same.

I see no difference with the arguments put forth for Jesus.

A Jew rejects Jesus in the same manner as a Christian rejects Muhammad.

It’s turtles all the way down. God is the judge of our sincere search for Him.

God bless you.

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[SyroMalankara]

I see no difference with the arguments put forth for Jesus.

A Jew rejects Jesus in the same manner as a Christian rejects Muhammad.

It’s turtles all the way down. God is the judge of our sincere search for Him.

God bless you.

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The weaknesses for Muhammad is that his community split immediately after his death. Christianity did not split for a few hundred years and much of that was due to secular politics, and even among the splits, the vast majority of Apostolic doctrine is maintained (excepting more recent protestant sects that are far removed)

 

[JimmyDFG]

Go ahead if you think it is like that, here is the challenge given to you from Muhammad;

Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]

And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it *, and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]

Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]

See how many Souls you attract! You have lost one already

Regards Tony*

“Lost” you say Tony?

2:111 And they say, “None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian.” That is [merely] their wishful thinking,
Say, “Produce your proof, if you should be truthful.”

Only if they knew how Saints were declared, they would have there answer

2:131 When his Lord said to him, “Submit”, he said “I have submitted in Islam to the Lord of the worlds.”

2:135 They say, “Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided.” Say, “Rather, [we follow]
the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the polytheists.”

 

[JimmyDFG]

I see no difference with the arguments put forth for Jesus.

A Jew rejects Jesus in the same manner as a Christian rejects Muhammad.

It’s turtles all the way down. God is the judge of our sincere search for Him.

God bless you.

.

Can the bahai come up with a better a argument than what Robert Stockman thought up?

Further more, many individual Jews accepted Jesus. The mere fact that some Jews rejection of Jesus was unjustified does not prove that the Christian rejection of muhammad or baha’u’llah is also unjustified

 

[MartinJordan]

I see no difference with the arguments put forth for Jesus.

A Jew rejects Jesus in the same manner as a Christian rejects Muhammad.

It’s turtles all the way down. God is the judge of our sincere search for Him.

God bless you.

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Did Mohammed believe in Jesus as Savior of the World? That Jesus alone showed us the Father?

If no then this is an excuse.

MJ

 

[RebeccaJ]

I see no difference with the arguments put forth for Jesus.

A Jew rejects Jesus in the same manner as a Christian rejects Muhammad.

It’s turtles all the way down. God is the judge of our sincere search for Him.

God bless you.

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This is a problem with Mormonism and apparently Baha’i. That is, a rejection of the Apostolic faith requires substitution.

 

[TonyBS]

This is a problem with Mormonism and apparently Baha’i. That is, a rejection of the Apostolic faith requires substitution.

Rebecca - Which One are we talking about; I wanted to do a bit of study

This one? - The Catholic Apostolic Church was a religious movement which originated in England around 1831 and later spread to Germany and the United States. While often referred to as Irvingism, it was neither actually founded nor anticipated by Edward Irving?

or this one;

“One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”.

Or are you referring to this

“The Four Marks of the Church is a term describing four specific adjectives — one, holy, catholic and apostolic — indicating four major distinctive marks or distinguishing characteristics of the Christian Church. The belief that the Church is characterized by these four particular “marks” was first expressed by the First Council of Constantinople in the year 381 in its revision of the Nicene Creed, in which it included the statement: “[We believe] in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.” In Protestant theology these are sometimes called the attributes of the Church.They are still professed today in the Nicene Creed, recited in the liturgy of Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and many Protestant churches’ worship services”.

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Can the bahai come up with a better a argument than what Robert Stockman thought up?

Further more, many individual Jews accepted Jesus. The mere fact that some Jews rejection of Jesus was unjustified does not prove that the Christian rejection of muhammad or baha’u’llah is also unjustified

I suggest you study more of what the Kitab-i-Iqan reveals about rejection of the Manifestation of God. Not sure why you’re stuck on Stockman?? He’s simply a servant of Baha’u’llah and a scholar of Christianity.

The vast majority of Jews rejected Jesus at the time, and the reasons was the rejection of Jewish Apostolic Succession and the abolition of the Traditions of Judaism. Exactly the same reasons given on these pages for Joseph Smith, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah

I reject none of them. It is a world embracing consciousness of all that is of God.

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[Servant19]

The weaknesses for Muhammad is that his community split immediately after his death. Christianity did not split for a few hundred years and much of that was due to secular politics, and even among the splits, the vast majority of Apostolic doctrine is maintained (excepting more recent protestant sects that are far removed)

While this is true, I wouldn’t say it’s a weakness for Muhammad but rather a weakness for what His religion became

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[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca - Which One are we talking about; I wanted to do a bit of study

This one? - The Catholic Apostolic Church was a religious movement which originated in England around 1831 and later spread to Germany and the United States. While often referred to as Irvingism, it was neither actually founded nor anticipated by Edward Irving?

or this one;

“One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”.

Or are you referring to this

“The Four Marks of the Church is a term describing four specific adjectives — one, holy, catholic and apostolic — indicating four major distinctive marks or distinguishing characteristics of the Christian Church. The belief that the Church is characterized by these four particular “marks” was first expressed by the First Council of Constantinople in the year 381 in its revision of the Nicene Creed, in which it included the statement: “[We believe] in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.” In Protestant theology these are sometimes called the attributes of the Church.They are still professed today in the Nicene Creed, recited in the liturgy of Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and many Protestant churches’ worship services”.

Regards Tony

“It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about” (Irenaeus, “Against Heresies”, 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

 

[Memaw]

There are false prophets but I am not in a position and don’t have the knowledge to declare anyone a false prophet or a false Christ. I leave that judgement up to God.

When I talk about Religion, I talk about the wonder of God, the beauty of Mary, the saving Grace of God, the Rosary, the life and death of Christ, the joy I find in His love. The list of wonders and joys I find in Christ are enough to occupy my mind for an eternity.

To even say “false” prophet it is say that these men are in some form or another prophets.

They are not prophets - false of otherwise.

They are just men.

There are such things as false prophets, Jesus warned us against them and we are supposed to be be able to recognize them, with His Help. Otherwise we might follow someone else’s every whim and whistle. I agree whole heartedlly with everything else you said. God Bless, Memaw

 

[JimmyDFG]

I suggest you study more of what the Kitab-i-Iqan reveals about rejection of the Manifestation of God. Not sure why you’re stuck on Stockman?? He’s simply a servant of Baha’u’llah and a scholar of Christianity.

The vast majority of Jews rejected Jesus at the time, and the reasons was the rejection of Jewish Apostolic Succession and the abolition of the Traditions of Judaism. Exactly the same reasons given on these pages for Joseph Smith, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah

I reject none of them. It is a world embracing consciousness of all that is of God.

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Was Joseph Smith a minor or mayor prophet?