Is Joseph Smith a prophet like Mohammed?

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Muhammad ( 570–632 ) was born in Mecca and was a traveling merchant until age 40. From 610–622 he had a ministry in Mecca as a prophet of allah. In 622, he fled from his enemies in Mecca and led his followers to Medina. Through tribal political alliances, muhammad soon became the ruler of Medina. He ruled Medina until his death (622–632).
Muhammad as ruler of Medina had a strikingly different character than when he was the prophet of Mecca. The quranic verses he penned in Mecca often contradict the verses he wrote in Medina. Let us compare the two muhammads and the two qurans.

In Mecca, Muhammad preached and exhorted people to submit to Islam. In Medina, he used the threat of the sword to compel people to convert to Islam. In Mecca, muhammad led the life of a teacher and prophet and followed disciplines of prayer, fasting, and worship. In Medina, he was the political ruler and the military commander. During his ten years in Medina, he personally led 27 military attacks. Prior to his death, he conquered most of the Arabian peninsula.

Why would an army use “self-defense” when attacking other community or city? Especially during the rapid expansion of the muslim conquest?
Solomon and David were king. They ruled their states with fair. They expanded state through conquests. So were they not also prophets? Why did God allow them to rule a state?

Muhammad was a prophet and also president of Islamic state. Muslims established a state so a state can expand through coquests. Muslims did not persecute or being cruel. Muhammad coquered Mecca but never persecuted. Muslims made wars in most peaceful ways. Muslims did not commit possession. Few people died in all wars of Muhammad(for about 300). Do you know any state which never made war?

Tribes were used to be ally of Muslims or Pagans. When Pagans assembled troops they were used to get from tribes who were not Muslim yet. So Muslims fought against that tribes.

You should understand that there is no any problem with being both prophet and president or king. But prophets were not used to live prosperity. Muhammad never did such thing. he always was in trouble to promote faith. Muhammad was not reach when He died. he did not use facilities of state for His comfort. And the help of state was that Muslims could defend faith with that power. You think Jesus did not establish a state so why Muhammad did! Jesus could not have so much believer to establish a state. He preached only for about 3 years and believers were weak. Muslims were weak too for about 10 years.

What would Jesus do if He would live more long and have ten thousands of believer? Would not believers treat Jesus also as a president?

In Mecca the verses are about faith generally and short. But in Medina verses came about the details of worships. So in Medina Muhammad was more prophet coversely you claim He gave up prophethood and start to rule Medina.

And all asserts or statements you said do not refute Islam and prophet Muhammad. But those statements are to make doubts about Islam. You may sway people who do not know Islam and prophet Muhammad.
 
I do not believe in allah or muhammad as being a “prophet” …nor do I believe in the quran as being divine( I do not many disrespect. I am sorry if that’s how it sounds. Its my belief )
Since I do not believe or practice in islam or allah , am I evil?
You say “God love His creatures as they being art of God” Wording it like that sounds like allah is like an art collector…only loves his marble sculptures.

You made an contradiction is a statement you made…
“And God do not love unbelievers. That is true. The point is that. God love His creatures as they being art of God. All unbelievers are art of God so God love them.”
If someone believe in God then he has faith. Before Islam many prophets came and who had believed those perophets were/are good. You believe in Jesus so you are not evil. If you do not believe in Muhammad and Qur’an so you have a risk. You heard about Muhammad. You have not to be Muslims but you should not reject Him. You distort the issue. An Atheist may have good attributes. God do not like an Atheist because of he rejection of God.

With art I mean creatures of God. Every creature has miraculous art, beauty, order, form, structures etc which point attributes of God. God like His actions and manifestations of eternal attributions on the creatures.

There is no contradiction in my statements. I said God love unbelievers because on body of them eternal attributions of God manifest and act. But God do not like evil deeds just like rejection of God, adultery, lie, persecution which commited by unbelievers or from any human. God do not like believers when they rebel against God and commit sins. God feel compassion for them. God like to forgive them but they must repent and ask God for forgiveness. Again and shortly God do not like evil deeds.
 
It is quite apparent that “Whoever kills a person….it is as though he killed all mankind” is completely misleading and dishonest and is intended as a dissimulation. It is as though it is saying that allah disapproves of killing (of any kind) “whoever kills… is killing mankind.” It is misleading because it is out of context and because when the verse is read in full it implies that “when the person is a murderer, or someone who inciting sedition,” that killing him is justified. And in the eyes of muslims, all non-muslims who reject allah and islam are “spreading corruption” and are legitimate targets to be killed. But it does imply (to muslims) that killing another (innocent) muslim would be synonymous to killing all mankind.

On the surface of it, the first sentence (islamists often quote only the first sentence, conveniently hiding the next sentence) of verse 5:32 seems very munificence and non-violent. What does the next sentence say? It says clearly that even when allah sent His messengers many people disbelieved them. muhammad was one of such messengers, the best and the last. Therefore, “those who disbelieve in muhammad and allah (i.e. the non-muslims) are the transgressors. Evidently, the non-muslims are the mischief-makers on earth. Logically, these non-muslims do not fall under the purview of the merciful provisions of verse 5:32. In simple language, this means: verse 5:32 is applicable only to the muslims.
You have very baseless prejudices about Islam. Ha, Ha, Ha, ha, … You say Muslims should kill every non-Muslims! Or you say for a Muslim it is true and right to kill non-Muslims! Are you wise correctly? Or do you have other intentions? You cannot refute Islam by evidences but instead you traduce Islam! Islam is not according to your conjectures. And give up such unfair tactics.

Here the verse:

33-Indeed the requital of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle, and try to cause corruption on the earth, is that they shall be slain or crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off from opposite sides or be banished from the land. That is a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter there is a great punishment for them, Al-Maidah(5)

But do not stop as I said before. Read the next:

34-excepting those who repent before you capture them, and know that Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful. Al-Maidah(5)

You see there should be punisment for crimes. Otherwise God do not say kill or punish all unbelievers yet there is no term of unbelievers in verse. Islamic scholars say if a Muslim commit those crimes then he must be punished too. Some states have death penalty nowdays. If you notice history Muslims did not kill people casually because they are not Musims or because of being Atheist. Islam allow people to have any thought freely. But if someone harm and attack and commit crime then Islam allow to punish.

And prophet of Allah had died! Scholars say that verse 5:33 was revealed for some groups in that time of prophet.
 
Absolutely. 👍 In many respects, Joseph Smith was an “American Mohammed” and Brigham Young tried to continue it in Utah. He was successful for a time, but fortunately the US Army put a stop to it.

Joseph Smith is a prophet like Mohammed - a false prophet.
Actually Elijah Mohammed, the prophet of the Nation of Islam (not to be mistaken with mainstream Islam) is kind of like the American Mohammed. But just how non-Mormon Christians would denounce Joseph Smith as a false prophet, mainstream Muslims have denounced Elijah Mohammed if they ever even heard of him.

Another more recent alleged prophet is Ellen White of the Seventh Day Adventists.
 
Solomon and David were king. They ruled their states with fair. They expanded state through conquests. So were they not also prophets? Why did God allow them to rule a state?

Muhammad was a prophet and also president of Islamic state. Muslims established a state so a state can expand through coquests. Muslims did not persecute or being cruel. Muhammad coquered Mecca but never persecuted. Muslims made wars in most peaceful ways. Muslims did not commit possession. Few people died in all wars of Muhammad(for about 300). Do you know any state which never made war?

Tribes were used to be ally of Muslims or Pagans. When Pagans assembled troops they were used to get from tribes who were not Muslim yet. So Muslims fought against that tribes.

You should understand that there is no any problem with being both prophet and president or king. But prophets were not used to live prosperity. Muhammad never did such thing. he always was in trouble to promote faith. Muhammad was not reach when He died. he did not use facilities of state for His comfort. And the help of state was that Muslims could defend faith with that power. You think Jesus did not establish a state so why Muhammad did! Jesus could not have so much believer to establish a state. He preached only for about 3 years and believers were weak. Muslims were weak too for about 10 years.

What would Jesus do if He would live more long and have ten thousands of believer? Would not believers treat Jesus also as a president?

In Mecca the verses are about faith generally and short. But in Medina verses came about the details of worships. So in Medina Muhammad was more prophet coversely you claim He gave up prophethood and start to rule Medina.

And all asserts or statements you said do not refute Islam and prophet Muhammad. But those statements are to make doubts about Islam. You may sway people who do not know Islam and prophet Muhammad.
King David and Solomon were Kings, not presidents of a state.
Catechism of the Catholic Church 2579
“David is par excellence the king “after God’s own heart,” the shepherd who prays for his people and prays in their name. His submission to the will of God, his praise, and his repentance, will be a model for the prayer of the people. His prayer, the prayer of God’s Anointed, is a faithful adherence to the divine promise and expresses a loving and joyful trust in God, the only King and Lord.In the Psalms David, inspired by the Holy Spirit, is the first prophet of Jewish and Christian prayer. The prayer of Christ, the true Messiah and Son of David, will reveal and fulfill the meaning of this prayer.”

As for Solomon in 1Kings 9-11
9 Give your servant, therefore, a listening heart to judge your people and to distinguish between good and evil. For who is able to give judgment for this vast people of yours?”
10 The Lord was pleased by Solomon’s request.
11 So God said to him: Because you asked for this—you did not ask for a long life for yourself, nor for riches, nor for the life of your enemies—but you asked for discernment to know what is right

I’m assuming this is why God a Kingdom to King David and Solomon …not a “state” .This is a very far cry from we know of muhammad.
The muslim conquest conquering lands sounds anything but peaceful. When muslims mention verses in the quran about killing is for “self-defence”. Is it self-defence when muslims are invading other lands?
There is no peace in wars…as you stated “muslims made wars in most peaceful ways”

You asked “Do you know any state which never made war?”
My answer to this is Yes. That would be Vatican City

I think its impossible to think about Jesus living any longer because he a destiny to fulfill. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world by his death on the cross and his Resurrection. But what seen throughout history and to this very day is Jesus appearing to people or in dreams. Like the Conversion of Paul the Apostle, Constantine-

"Maxentius organized his forces—still twice the size of Constantine’s—in long lines facing the battle plain. Constantine’s army arrived at the field bearing unfamiliar symbols on either its standards or its soldiers’ shields.According to Lactantius, Constantine was visited by Jesus in a dream the night before the battle, wherein he was advised “to mark the heavenly sign of God on the shields of his soldiers … by means of a slanted letter X with the top of its head bent round (Chi Rho). He marked Christ on their shields.” Eusebius describes another version, where, while marching at midday, "he saw with his own eyes in the heavens a trophy of the cross arising from the light of the sun, carrying the message, In Hoc Signo Vinces or “with this sign, you will conquer”

Imagine converting an empire that prosecuted you.

We even hear in the present time Jesus appearing to extremist in dreams changing their hearts and minds.

Has muhammad done such a thing?
 
You have very baseless prejudices about Islam. Ha, Ha, Ha, ha, … You say Muslims should kill every non-Muslims! Or you say for a Muslim it is true and right to kill non-Muslims! Are you wise correctly? Or do you have other intentions? You cannot refute Islam by evidences but instead you traduce Islam! Islam is not according to your conjectures. And give up such unfair tactics.

Here the verse:

33-Indeed the requital of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle, and try to cause corruption on the earth, is that they shall be slain or crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off from opposite sides or be banished from the land. That is a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter there is a great punishment for them, Al-Maidah(5)

But do not stop as I said before. Read the next:

34-excepting those who repent before you capture them, and know that Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful. Al-Maidah(5)

You see there should be punisment for crimes. Otherwise God do not say kill or punish all unbelievers yet there is no term of unbelievers in verse. Islamic scholars say if a Muslim commit those crimes then he must be punished too. Some states have death penalty nowdays. If you notice history Muslims did not kill people casually because they are not Musims or because of being Atheist. Islam allow people to have any thought freely. But if someone harm and attack and commit crime then Islam allow to punish.

And prophet of Allah had died! Scholars say that verse 5:33 was revealed for some groups in that time of prophet.
To war against Allah and Prophet
In the quranic verses it is said that fighting against muslim means fighting a war against allah and prophet . This is due to the respect and high status accorded to muslims. In fact any dealings with them are like dealings with allah and prophet .This is because they are connected with allah It is also possible that it is so because muslims are closely linked with Allah through the Prophet and to cause harm to muslims or to take away their property or shed their blood is prohibited by allah and His prophet . Whoever acts against the divine command is an attacker (who has fought against allah and prophet.
Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq said:
“allah says: One who hurts My believing servant has declared war against Me, and one who respects a believer has secured himself from My wrath.”
(Kāfi vol. 2, page. 350)
He also said:
“Whoever humiliates my friend has openly waged war against me.”
(Kāfi vol. 2, page. 352)

“Punishment for a Muharib
One of the following four punishments may be accorded: to kill, to crucify, to cut off hands and legs, or to exile the attacker/s from the city.
In Burhan quran page. 188 it is mentioned that according to religious terminology ‘attacker’ refers to a person who frightens people, creates inconvenience in a city or desert, whether he is weak or strong, a man or a woman. In all cases such a person is a Muharib (attacker) and when the attack is directed against muslims according to quran it is equivalent to waging war against allah and prophet and quran says regarding it,”

“The punishment of those who wage war against allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement
(Surah al-Maidah 5:33)”

"(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,), means, “Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. Their mischief is disobeying allah, because whoever disobeys allah on the earth, or commands that allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth. Peace on both the earth and in the heavens is ensured (and earned) through obedience (to Allah). Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and Qatadah said”

“(The recompense of those who wage war against allah and His messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land.) Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil. Ibn Jarir recorded that Ikrimah and Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that the Ayat,”
 
It’s apparent that Jimmy has becoming more familiar with the Qur’an and is striving to learn more…Perhaps if we considered the role of Prophet Muhammad from when He received revelation on Mount Hira until He left Mecca where He was accepted in Medina would be appropriate…

For six or seven years the Prophet delivered His message to the people… He did not have a community. Representatives from various tribes were committed to assassinate the Prophet in His bed…which was occupied by Ali ibn abi Talib… When the assasins arrived they were met with Ali.

After the Prophet left Mecca His role as being responsible for His people became more evident…and so after He left Mecca The Meccans attacked Medina…hence the verses were revealed to defend the community or “Ummah”. Jihad was permitted as a defensive action.

The translation of Surih 5:33 above is accurate but it also lacks context. Here I will provide the context:

That was why We laid it down for the Children of Israel that whoever killed a human being, except as a punishment for murder or for spreading corruption in the land, shall be regarded as having killed all mankind, and that whoever saved a human life shall be regarded as having saved all mankind. Our messengers came to them with clear signs, but many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (32) Those that make war against God and His Messenger and spread disorder in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the country. They shall be disgraced in this world, and then severely punished in the Hereafter, (33) except for those who repent before you gain power over them: for you must know that God is forgiving and merciful.

tanzil.net/#trans/en.wahiduddin/5:33

From the above I don’t see that much comparison …between Muhammad Who received the revelation as guidance and Joseph Smith who “discovered” and mysteriously translated “ancient” plates.
 
It’s apparent that Jimmy has becoming more familiar with the Qur’an and is striving to learn more…Perhaps if we considered the role of Prophet Muhammad from when He received revelation on Mount Hira until He left Mecca where He was accepted in Medina would be appropriate…

For six or seven years the Prophet delivered His message to the people… He did not have a community. Representatives from various tribes were committed to assassinate the Prophet in His bed…which was occupied by Ali ibn abi Talib… When the assasins arrived they were met with Ali.

After the Prophet left Mecca His role as being responsible for His people became more evident…and so after He left Mecca The Meccans attacked Medina…hence the verses were revealed to defend the community or “Ummah”. Jihad was permitted as a defensive action.

The translation of Surih 5:33 above is accurate but it also lacks context. Here I will provide the context:

That was why We laid it down for the Children of Israel that whoever killed a human being, except as a punishment for murder or for spreading corruption in the land, shall be regarded as having killed all mankind, and that whoever saved a human life shall be regarded as having saved all mankind. Our messengers came to them with clear signs, but many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (32) Those that make war against God and His Messenger and spread disorder in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the country. They shall be disgraced in this world, and then severely punished in the Hereafter, (33) except for those who repent before you gain power over them: for you must know that God is forgiving and merciful.

tanzil.net/#trans/en.wahiduddin/5:33

From the above I don’t see that much comparison …between Muhammad Who received the revelation as guidance and Joseph Smith who “discovered” and mysteriously translated “ancient” plates.
Ummm, yeah, I can see that. Joseph Smith was, for all his faults, not a violent man. Sure, he was fond of producing “scripture” that threatened anyone who defied him, similar to this here. But as far as I know, they were empty threats.

Cutting off hands and feet…really?? Crucify?? :confused: All I can say is, wow, yeah. No comparison.

I wonder too if you are making veiled threats?
 
Ummm, yeah, I can see that. Joseph Smith was, for all his faults, not a violent man. Sure, he was fond of producing “scripture” that threatened anyone who defied him, similar to this here. But as far as I know, they were empty threats.

Cutting off hands and feet…really?? Crucify?? :confused: All I can say is, wow, yeah. No comparison.

I wonder too if you are making veiled threats?
LOL

Who is making veiled threats? Arthra?

Might I also remind you dear Rebecca, that the Trinity also ordered Moses to respond very violently to those who disobeyed.

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LOL

Who is making veiled threats? Arthra?

Might I also remind you dear Rebecca, that the Trinity also ordered Moses to respond very violently to those who disobeyed.

.
I don’t find it humorous.

We are called to be merciful, as God is merciful. Jesus fulfilled the Law, in every way.
 
I don’t find it humorous.

We are called to be merciful, as God is merciful. Jesus fulfilled the Law, in every way.
Who are you being merciful to Rebecca?

Are you accusing arthra of veiled threats? Seriously :eek:
Have you ever met the guy?
He’s the softest teddy bear on this forum by a country mile. Veiled threats?

.
 
It was vigorously argued in another thread that Mohammed was indeed a Prophet of the Judeo-Christian God. The logic used in Mohammed’s defense seems to apply also to Joseph Smith. If so, then why would Islam (or Baha’i really) be the final (most recent???) say on the matter of God? Wouldn’t Mormanism have rightful claim to that?
He is a prophet exactly like Mohammed, I mean exactly.
 
Who are you being merciful to Rebecca?

Are you accusing arthra of veiled threats? Seriously :eek:
Have you ever met the guy?
He’s the softest teddy bear on this forum by a country mile. Veiled threats?

.
Hello, this is a thread that questions the legitimacy of Mohamed. In which a follower of Mohamed produced scripture that threatens those who question the legitimacy of Mohamed with torture and mutilation. Any passage from the Quran could have been chosen to make the same point that the Quran is divine in origin. ANY. Yet one that threatens those who question Mohamed is the one that is chosen.

Which is why I asked the question, giving the poster an opportunity to explain. If you view a question as a form of violence then indeed, there is one good reason to not follow who you follow.

We are called to be merciful, not called to be doormats.
 
Of course, neither are truly prophets. And neither book is divine. Both have some elements of borrowed truth mixed with fantastical ideas and self-proclamations.

My children do the same thing when they combine fairy tales and make their own up. It’s all in good fun, unless someone takes it seriously and runs with it.
 
Ummm, yeah, I can see that. Joseph Smith was, for all his faults, not a violent man. Sure, he was fond of producing “scripture” that threatened anyone who defied him, similar to this here. But as far as I know, they were empty threats.

Cutting off hands and feet…really?? Crucify?? :confused: All I can say is, wow, yeah. No comparison.

I wonder too if you are making veiled threats?
Rebecca my friend!

My purpose was to quote the Qur’anic verses in context:

*“Our messengers came to them with clear signs, but many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (32) Those that make war against God and His Messenger and spread disorder in the land shall be put to death …”
*

The Qur’an essentially approved of defensive war… rather than being the aggressor. These provisions allowed the early community of Muslims to defend themselves against the attacks of the Meccan pagans who had been persecuting the followers of the new Faith for several years. The Qur’an endorsed “Jihad” or struggle to defend against aggressors.

There is a similar justification in Catholic tradition called “Just War”. See:

catholic.com/documents/just-war-doctrine

Baha’u’llah abrogated “Jihad”:

“Beware lest ye shed the blood of anyone. Unsheathe the sword of your tongue from the scabbard of utterance, for therewith ye can conquer the citadels of men’s hearts. We have abolished the law to wage holy war against each other. God’s mercy, hath, verily, encompassed all created things, if ye do but understand. Aid ye your Lord, the God of Mercy, with the sword of understanding. Keener indeed is it, and more finely tempered, than the sword of utterance, were ye but to reflect upon the words of your Lord.”
(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 22)
 
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