Is Joseph Smith trustworthy?

[Memaw]

How did this Smith fellow manage to convince so many fathers to give their daughters away in marriage to him? Isn’t this just further evidence that people can be quite gullible regarding religion? Am I just being cynical?

It’s really hard to believe what some people will believe. God Bless, Memaw

 

[TexanKnight]

I’m pretty sure every Christian denomination believes God can/will speak to you in one form or another. I also think most have stories of visitation by Angels or other surrogates.

lol…really?

Do you truly not see the difference?

Smith believed and Mormons believe that God talks to them face to face as prophets and tell them what to do

I am unaware of other Churches that claim to have prophets.

Please…do some research…,

 

[Theo520]

TK,
I think you are the one that must start doing research before posting.
Ephesians 4:11 confirms the office of prophet in the New Testament Christian church.
All Christians believe God will answer their prayers and I pretty sure very few Mormons are claiming visitations by Mary, Christ, or Angles.

lol…really?

Do you truly not see the difference?

Smith believed and Mormons believe that God talks to them face to face as prophets and tell them what to do

I am unaware of other Churches that claim to have prophets.

Please…do some research…,

 

[LivingWaters7]

TK,
I think you are the one that must start doing research before posting.
Ephesians 4:11 confirms the office of prophet in the New Testament Christian church.
All Christians believe God will answer their prayers and I pretty sure very few Mormons are claiming visitations by Mary, Christ, or Angles.

While yes, prophets are part of the Church (and Catholicism has had many examples of prophets and prophetesses throughout our history), “prophet” is not an office, if by office you mean “priesthood office”. Further, it is always amusing when LDS refer to Ephesians 4:11, since said verse refutes the LDS claim as well. If this is to be used as a proof text of the specific names of offices to be found in the “true church”, then where in the LDS church do we find the office of “pastor”, or the office of “evangelist” (Joseph Smith made up that patriarch=evangelist, with no actual evidence for such a claim)?

 

[Telstar]

While yes, prophets are part of the Church (and Catholicism has had many examples of prophets and prophetesses throughout our history), “prophet” is not an office, if by office you mean “priesthood office”. Further, it is always amusing when LDS refer to Ephesians 4:11, since said verse refutes the LDS claim as well. If this is to be used as a proof text of the specific names of offices to be found in the “true church”, then where in the LDS church do we find the office of “pastor”, or the office of “evangelist” (Joseph Smith made up that patriarch=evangelist, with no actual evidence for such a claim)?

I agree. What some people seem to refer to as being Church ‘offices’ in Ephesians 4:11, are merely references to those with certain vocations or spiritual gifts within the Church. There were very few actual ‘offices’ in those early years. The positions of the 12 Apostles were equivalent to the later Bishops that they personally appointed (ordained) to preside over the other local churches, as they spread to new cities. All of them (Apostles/Bishops) also held the official ‘office’ of Priest. They were the ones that presided over all of the official functions of the Church (Baptisms, ordinations, the Breaking of Bread, etc.). But, some of them also had different vocations than others. Some of them were prophets or evangelists, etc., but people with those kinds of vocations were not necessarily members with actual official positions, like Priests or Bishops, either. They might have just been regular members of the congregation.

Every member of the Church has a ‘vocation’ in life, even today. Even if we’re just regular members, our actual vocation might be as a husband/provider for the family, or wife and mother. One’s particular vocation is not necessarily considered to be an ‘official’ position in the Church.

 

[PaulDupre1]

While yes, prophets are part of the Church (and Catholicism has had many examples of prophets and prophetesses throughout our history), “prophet” is not an office, if by office you mean “priesthood office”. Further, it is always amusing when LDS refer to Ephesians 4:11, since said verse refutes the LDS claim as well. If this is to be used as a proof text of the specific names of offices to be found in the “true church”, then where in the LDS church do we find the office of “pastor”, or the office of “evangelist” (Joseph Smith made up that patriarch=evangelist, with no actual evidence for such a claim)?

One of my favorite Catholic prophets is Joan of Arc. A 16 year-old girl teaches the pope and leads the armies of France to victory. Better than the Book of Mormon and true to boot!

My other favorite Catholic prophet is Pope Paul VI. Read his encyclical Humanae Vitae and you will see what true modern prophecy is. Pope Paul VI, in 1968, prophesied everything that would happen if the world embraced artificial birth control. Sadly, everything he prophesied has come true.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[lynnettejane]

Paul,

I know. I know. But my wife and daughter are trapped in the Mormon faith and I’m trying to respect that choice just as I expect them to respect my choice to be Catholic. My disrespect towards Mormonism, of which there is plenty, has only pushed them further into it. I am trying now to write a letter/essay that will at least explain my view at its most fundamental (the untrustworthiness of JS). I doubt they will hear me, but I feel moved to try. Mormonism has damaged my family so much, I’m just trying to repair it with the grace of god as best I can.

It is very frustrating, Fawn Brodie’s No-one Knows My History is an excellent resource, but my guess is that they are now resistant to anything you say. So, practice your faith, become really strong in it, show them love and charity, then when they see what you have, this may have the desired effect. Above all, pray for them. And as an alternative to anti mormon publications, build a really good library of Catholic books, and leave them all around the house, openly study your faith, perhaps follow www.salvationhistory.com free online bible study course. Fight negative with positive, show the joy of your faith, get your parish praying for them. May God bless you and your family.

 

[lynnettejane]

Pray much to Our Lady to intercede for your daughter and your wife!

I thank the Lord for the gift of your conversion to the Truth.

So far, they don’t seem to be “hearing” what you are telling them.

Again, I suggest you pray to Our Blessed Mother for her intercession!

Amen to that, her intercession is tremendously powerful , also St Joseph, the earthly father and protector of Our Lord

 

[lynnettejane]

It’s really hard to believe what some people will believe. God Bless, Memaw

It is also because he abused his purported authority, as did many of his “apostles” at the same time and subsequently If you read The 19th Wife, you will get some idea of this power. Women, and young girls were chatels to be given to any old man who wanted them, then they were very often abandoned. Totally horrifying.

 

[Memaw]

One of my favorite Catholic prophets is Joan of Arc. A 16 year-old girl teaches the pope and leads the armies of France to victory. Better than the Book of Mormon and true to boot!

My other favorite Catholic prophet is Pope Paul VI. Read his encyclical Humanae Vitae and you will see what true modern prophecy is. Pope Paul VI, in 1968, prophesied everything that would happen if the world embraced artificial birth control. Sadly, everything he prophesied has come true.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

I agree, thanks, welcome home !! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Theo520]

I agree. What some people seem to refer to as being Church ‘offices’ in Ephesians 4:11, are merely references to those with certain vocations or spiritual gifts within the Church. There were very few actual ‘offices’ in those early years. The positions of the 12 Apostles were equivalent to the later Bishops that they personally appointed (ordained) to preside over the other local churches, as they spread to new cities. All of them (Apostles/Bishops) also held the official ‘office’ of Priest. They were the ones that presided over all of the official functions of the Church (Baptisms, ordinations, the Breaking of Bread, etc.). But, some of them also had different vocations than others. Some of them were prophets or evangelists, etc., but people with those kinds of vocations were not necessarily members with actual official positions, like Priests or Bishops, either. They might have just been regular members of the congregation.

Every member of the Church has a ‘vocation’ in life, even today. Even if we’re just regular members, our actual vocation might be as a husband/provider for the family, or wife and mother. One’s particular vocation is not necessarily considered to be an ‘official’ position in the Church.

What I read here are people using a Cecil B Demile definition of prophet.

The gift of prophecy (I Corinthians 12) and the office of the prophet (Ephesians 4:11) are not the same thing. There is a ministry of the prophet, but not everyone is a prophet. For example, a boy may wear a Cubs baseball cap, but that does not mean he plays professional baseball for the Chicago Cubs. You may prophesy, but operating in the simple gift of prophecy does not qualify you to stand in the office of a prophet, much like wearing a Cubs hat does not qualify you to play baseball for the Chicago Cubs - you must be gifted by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Telstar]

What I read here are people using a Cecil B Demile definition of prophet.

Quite true. But, that is exactly what Joseph Smith claimed to be, as well as what every leader of the LDS church since that time is also claimed to be. They believe their highest ranking leader to be the same kind of prophet that Moses was, at least by their interpretation of what an OT prophet was. That’s why people are using references a la Cecil B. Demille’s definition.

The gift of prophecy (I Corinthians 12) and the office of the prophet (Ephesians 4:11) are not the same thing. There is a ministry of the prophet, but not everyone is a prophet. For example, a boy may wear a Cubs baseball cap, but that does not mean he plays professional baseball for the Chicago Cubs. You may prophesy, but operating in the simple gift of prophecy does not qualify you to stand in the office of a prophet, much like wearing a Cubs hat does not qualify you to play baseball for the Chicago Cubs - you must be gifted by the Holy Spirit.

There have been many prophets and prophetesses throughout both the OT and NT, and in the 2000 years since that time, that are recognized by the Catholic Church. But, those since the time of Jesus are not typically referred to as such. Many of them are recognized as Saints because of their tendency toward having lived very holy lives, who also happened to have the gift of prophecy in varying degrees. But, many of them were not necessarily members of the Church hierarchy, though others were. You are absolutely correct that prophecy is a gift of the Holy Ghost. It would seem logical that the title of ‘prophet’ would only be applied to someone who actually has that gift, otherwise, what purpose would a prophet serve?

 

[JaminB123]

OP here. I would like to thank everyone for their thoughts, advice, and prayers. I have decided that for now, rational argument (based on scripture, morality, history, etc.) is probably not the best approach with my daughter. While the untrustworthiness of Mormon founder JS was the “magic bullet” for me and others, I don’t think it will be for her at this time. I will, as others have suggested, focus on prayer, love, and example. When I see an opening, I will kindly attempt a rational argument and I believe Joseph Smith is a good place to start when the time comes.

Though it is tempting to despair, there is also much to praise God for in my family. My younger daughter joins me at mass every week, is enrolled is Catholic religious education starting next month, and likes to rock out to “Cat Chat” when we’re in the car. Perhaps one day there will be unity of faith in my home. Until then, I know what to pray for–unity of faith in my family and in the world, reconciliation in my family and in the world, peace in my family and in the world.

A kind man I knew in my last parish told me, “My wife is a cradle Catholic. Me… it took me 18 year to join her as a Catholic… and another 18 years to become an involved Catholic.” This is a marathon we are in, not a sprint. All things work in God’s time, not mine. I would love for things to speed up and for mistake to be avoided, but there are things I cannot control.

There is time, I pray. There is hope. Thank you all.

 

[lynnettejane]

OP here. I would like to thank everyone for their thoughts, advice, and prayers. I have decided that for now, rational argument (based on scripture, morality, history, etc.) is probably not the best approach with my daughter. While the untrustworthiness of Mormon founder JS was the “magic bullet” for me and others, I don’t think it will be for her at this time. I will, as others have suggested, focus on prayer, love, and example. When I see an opening, I will kindly attempt a rational argument and I believe Joseph Smith is a good place to start when the time comes.

Though it is tempting to despair, there is also much to praise God for in my family. My younger daughter joins me at mass every week, is enrolled is Catholic religious education starting next month, and likes to rock out to “Cat Chat” when we’re in the car. Perhaps one day there will be unity of faith in my home. Until then, I know what to pray for–unity of faith in my family and in the world, reconciliation in my family and in the world, peace in my family and in the world.

A kind man I knew in my last parish told me, “My wife is a cradle Catholic. Me… it took me 18 year to join her as a Catholic… and another 18 years to become an involved Catholic.” This is a marathon we are in, not a sprint. All things work in God’s time, not mine. I would love for things to speed up and for mistake to be avoided, but there are things I cannot control.

There is time, I pray. There is hope. Thank you all.

God bless you and your family. Can you share your story with us? You must be living in a tense situation now, and I must say, your 15 year old’s attitude shocked me, but on the other hand, her extreme reaction shows that she is disturbed, and the quick answer for her is get rid of the disturbance, then she can rebalance. But you are fighting forces and principalities of darkness, thank God you are doing it with the aid of the Holy Spirit who indeed is the One who is doing the disturbing. At this moment she will be feeling very insecure as God has rocked her world. It would be very easy in this atmosphere not to talk about your faith so as not to rock the boat. Don’t do this, openly study your faith in the midst of your family, leave your books around and open, invest in good modern Catholic theologians such as Robert Barron and Scott Hahn, and openly read the scriptures. Have apps like Universalis and Laudate on your phone and tablets, and pray, pray,pray. The chances are they will become more disturbed, pray for God’s grace in their lives, visit the Blessed Sacrament, say the Holy Rosary every day and enlist the host Saints in your battle. My poor prayers are with you all, poor as they are, added to all the others, trust that God will hear them.
This is a PS, you could even start your own Facebook page about your journey, nothing anti-mormon, all Catholic and joyful, I bet she will read it, in fact she probably won’t be able to resist, it’s really easy to do. Don’t bother about likes and all that stuff, dedicate it to the glory of God, if one person sees it and it reaches their soul then it’s a success.

 

[iepuras]

OP here. I would like to thank everyone for their thoughts, advice, and prayers. I have decided that for now, rational argument (based on scripture, morality, history, etc.) is probably not the best approach with my daughter. While the untrustworthiness of Mormon founder JS was the “magic bullet” for me and others, I don’t think it will be for her at this time. I will, as others have suggested, focus on prayer, love, and example. When I see an opening, I will kindly attempt a rational argument and I believe Joseph Smith is a good place to start when the time comes.

Though it is tempting to despair, there is also much to praise God for in my family. My younger daughter joins me at mass every week, is enrolled is Catholic religious education starting next month, and likes to rock out to “Cat Chat” when we’re in the car. Perhaps one day there will be unity of faith in my home. Until then, I know what to pray for–unity of faith in my family and in the world, reconciliation in my family and in the world, peace in my family and in the world.

A kind man I knew in my last parish told me, “My wife is a cradle Catholic. Me… it took me 18 year to join her as a Catholic… and another 18 years to become an involved Catholic.” This is a marathon we are in, not a sprint. All things work in God’s time, not mine. I would love for things to speed up and for mistake to be avoided, but there are things I cannot control.

There is time, I pray. There is hope. Thank you all.

I encourage to continue to work on your essay, even though you won’t be giving it to your older daughter anytime soon. It may prove helpful for you emotionally. You may even be able to provide it to your younger daughter. It is great that your younger daughter is so interested in the Catholic Church. I’m sure it gives you hope. Who knows, the Holy Spirit may end up working through your younger daughter to reach your wife and older daughter. I will pray that the Holy Spirit will continue to work on her and her conversion.

I am concerned about the bishop and his meddling with your family. It seems that your daughter is getting ideas of “ridding the family” of the one upsetting the Mormon balance (you) from him. I don’t think your daughter quite gets the consequences of divorce on children. I’m not surprised the bishop is causing trouble, but it is a real problem.

I know I cannot do much to help my family out of Mormonism other than pray. At this point, all I can do is leave it in the capable hands of the Holy Spirit along with the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary.