Is Judaism a More Selfless/Pure/Loving Religion than Christianity?

[nsper7]

As I have discussions with others and learn about Judaism and Christianity, I come to the conclusion that Judaism is a more loving, selfless and pure religion than Christianity (please note, I am not addressing the matter of which faith is Truth).

I come to this conclusion because it seems like Christianity (Catholic or Protestant) is at some level based purely on human selfishness. For example, a person does a good deed because they either:

A) Fear of punishment (i.e. Hell) for failure to perform the good deeds (and verses in Scripture such as the judgment of the sheep and goats points to this)
B) Desiring of reward (i.e. Heaven, shorter time in Purgatory, higher spot in Heaven, etc.) by doing good deeds

In Orthodox Judaism, since there is no concept of Hell (although there is a concept of spiritual purification of a person’s sins before they enter the World to Come [Olam Haba]; while some might see this spiritual purification as a punishment and in the Hebrew Scriptures, God does reward people although often not because they deserved it, but because He is depicted as being a loving and merciful Father in the OT) and it is viewed that the performance of good deeds (Mitzvot) is the reward in itself and that we should love God in this life not out of fear of some punishment or desire for a future reward. Thus, when someone who is Jewish performs a good deed, it is out of a purer motive than when a Christian does so.

Now many Christians might say that is not true and that they do good/avoid evil for the same reasons (i.e. pure love for God), but because the fear of Hell and the promise of Heaven hang over the Christian’s head, how can any Christian truly claim to know their own motives so well? Those threats always loom over us.

After all, what response would we give if Christ appeared to us and asked if we would suffer horrendously, but said that there would be no reward, either here or in the hereafter, for this suffering we would undertake and there would be punishment, either here or in the hereafter, if we refused?

 

[Shin]

You’re really got to let go of this Hell obsession.

Just, drop it.

Christ -is- selfless love.

 

[nsper7]

You’re really got to let go of this Hell obsession.

Just, drop it.

Christ -is- selfless love.

I don’t see how I can drop it. After all, that is what my Christian faith is based on. It is what brought me to faith and then I read things like St. Leonard’s sermon or other things and it leads me to wonder how can I let go of the ‘Hell obsession’ unless I am going to take the step of disbelieving Christianity?

 

[MrZetterlund]

I saw a video that adresses this topic specifically. I’ll link you to it later this afternoon. Judaism IS NOT more loving than Christianity. The Law of Moses says to love your neighbor and hate your enemy. Jesus says to love your enemy. The OT says eye for an eye, Jesus says repay no evil with evil. Be back this afternoon.

 

[Robbinson]

As I have discussions with others and learn about Judaism and Christianity, I come to the conclusion that Judaism is a more loving, selfless and pure religion than Christianity (please note, I am not addressing the matter of which faith is Truth).

I come to this conclusion because it seems like Christianity (Catholic or Protestant) is at some level based purely on human selfishness. For example, a person does a good deed because they either:

A) Fear of punishment (i.e. Hell) for failure to perform the good deeds (and verses in Scripture such as the judgment of the sheep and goats points to this)
B) Desiring of reward (i.e. Heaven, shorter time in Purgatory, higher spot in Heaven, etc.) by doing good deeds

In Orthodox Judaism, since there is no concept of Hell (although there is a concept of spiritual purification of a person’s sins before they enter the World to Come [Olam Haba]; while some might see this spiritual purification as a punishment and in the Hebrew Scriptures, God does reward people [although often not because they deserved it, but because He is depicted as being a loving and merciful Father in the OT) and it is viewed that the performance of good deeds (Mitzvot) is the reward in itself and that we should love God in this life not out of fear of some punishment or desire for a future reward. Thus, when someone who is Jewish performs a good deed, it is out of a purer motive than when a Christian does so.

Now many Christians might say that is not true and that they do good/avoid evil for the same reasons (i.e. pure love for God), but because the fear of Hell and the promise of Heaven hang over the Christian’s head, how can any Christian truly claim to know their own motives so well? Those threats always loom over us.

After all, what response would we give if Christ appeared to us and asked if we would suffer horrendously, but said that there would be no reward, either here or in the hereafter, for this suffering we would undertake and there would be punishment, either here or in the hereafter, if we refused?

Well - I’ll disagree with you on your conclusion, but also on a few specific point you set up as your premise.

1. We/Christians (rather Jewish believers or Gentile believers) are not motiviated to follow the gospel out of fear of Hell or desire to earn our way to heaven. Jesus said that we love him, we will follow his commandments. We have faith through the grace of God, and out of that faith, comes a desire to follow Christ’s commandments which are to love on another and love God. The sacraments assist us in our faith/grace.

We can’t earn our way to heaven with good works, yet faith without works is dead.

So its not faith or works, its both - but works follow from faith out of love. Of course the fact that there is a “Hell” (absence from God or whatever literal form it takes) is just that - a “fact” - but without faith that fact is meaningless as salvation comes through faith/grace. Working to do good deeds without faith is worthless.

1. Judaism, while it doesn’t have a defined picture of “Hell” as was more fully revealed in the New Testament, as a long tradition/understanding reflected in the Talmud and rabbinic writings (and supported in scripture) that there is an afterlife and it is based upon “works”. Thus references to resurrection, some to eternal life, some to eternal destruction. In fact, one is “written into the book of life” (according to rabbinic judaism) each year during the 10 days of Awe between Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur based upon ones deeds (if good outweigh bad).

Properly understood, Christianity (and particularly Catholicism) is a completion of Judaism, not a different system. Jesus was Jewish, as was Mary, Joseph, all the apostles and all authors of the scriptures (other than Luke).

Scriptural Judaism, like Christianity, finds salvation in (i) faith, (ii) sacrifice and (iii) repentance from sins (with good works (tzedakah) coming out of love of God and neighbor - not out of obligation, properly understood). Rabbinic Judaism has replaced sacrifice (no temple) with more affirmative good deeds and prayers (though scripture doesn’t support elimination of sacrifice without its completion/fullment) and the good deeds and "need to follow the 613 commandments of the mosaic law) has led or leeds (all too often) to legalism without spiritual enlightment.

This doesn’t mean that there aren’t spiritual individuals within the Jewish community (there are many) or that Judaism has no value. Read the book of Romans for a wonderful summary/exposition of the value of Judaism and the benefits afforded to “Israel” through God’s mercy, forebearance and promise.

FYI -I’m a Jewish believer/Catholic - happy to exchange emails through PMs if you like.

Blessings

Brian
[/quote]

 

[Shin]

Well, fear only motivates to a certain degree, without love, you can’t succeed ultimately. Fear is subordinate to love.

Joy is needed for the energy to do good work truly.

So, it’s simply a matter of practicing the virtue of temperance, and learning how to love.

Which if you only focus on the negative will not happen. So… you’ve got to break the loop yourself.

And pray to do so, so you get the grace to do so!

 

[Contarini]

As I have discussions with others and learn about Judaism and Christianity, I come to the conclusion that Judaism is a more loving, selfless and pure religion than Christianity (please note, I am not addressing the matter of which faith is Truth).

I come to this conclusion because it seems like Christianity (Catholic or Protestant) is at some level based purely on human selfishness. For example, a person does a good deed because they either:

A) Fear of punishment (i.e. Hell) for failure to perform the good deeds (and verses in Scripture such as the judgment of the sheep and goats points to this)
B) Desiring of reward (i.e. Heaven, shorter time in Purgatory, higher spot in Heaven, etc.) by doing good deeds

That’s not why I do what I do. I’m basically an agnostic anyway, in the strict and proper sense–I don’t know if any of it is true. But I know that it is good, and I want to follow what is good. Of course I hope that the promise of eternal life is true–who wouldn’t? And I think there are good reasons for my hope.

You may be a Christian out of fear of hell, but don’t judge others.

In Orthodox Judaism, since there is no concept of Hell (although there is a concept of spiritual purification of a person’s sins before they enter the World to Come [Olam Haba];

That’s not true. There is a concept of hell, but it’s not dogmatized the way it is in traditional Christianity and it’s not clearly separate from the purification you mention. In other words, traditional Jews appear to be agnostic about whether anyone will be eternally damned, but they do believe in punishment for sin after death.

while some might see this spiritual purification as a punishment and in the Hebrew Scriptures, God does reward people [although often not because they deserved it, but because He is depicted as being a loving and merciful Father in the OT) and it is viewed that the performance of good deeds (Mitzvot) is the reward in itself and that we should love God in this life not out of fear of some punishment or desire for a future reward. Thus, when someone who is Jewish performs a good deed, it is out of a purer motive than when a Christian does so.

Now many Christians might say that is not true and that they do good/avoid evil for the same reasons (i.e. pure love for God), but because the fear of Hell and the promise of Heaven hang over the Christian’s head, how can any Christian truly claim to know their own motives so well? Those threats always loom over us.

First of all, you’re assuming that Christians are 100% confident that Christianity is true. You may be, but I’m not.

In the second place, I think you’ve bought into Immanuel Kant’s ideas about what constitutes a valid motive for doing good. I think Kant was wrong. Of course if something is good, you should do good no matter what the consequences. But the belief that good consequences will follow doesn’t “taint” your action in some way.

Stop worrying about whether your motives are pure. Just follow what is good and leave the rest to God.

After all, what response would we give if Christ appeared to us and asked if we would suffer horrendously, but said that there would be no reward, either here or in the hereafter, for this suffering we would undertake and there would be punishment, either here or in the hereafter, if we refused?

I think you mean no punishment.

I hope I would have the strength to do what was good no matter what. But of course one doesn’t know until put to the test.

Edwin
[/quote]

 

[nsper7]

I saw a video that adresses this topic specifically. I’ll link you to it later this afternoon. Judaism IS NOT more loving than Christianity. The Law of Moses says to love your neighbor and hate your enemy. Jesus says to love your enemy. The OT says eye for an eye, Jesus says repay no evil with evil. Be back this afternoon.

Catholicism acknowledges the right (sometimes even responsibility) of Just War and self-defense/defense of others. My understanding is that when the OT addresses “an eye for an eye” it is:

A law to impose limits on justice and prevent vicious revenge (in other words, the MAXIMUM punishment that can be inflicted is ‘measure for measure’) and this was a judicial policy, not so much about interpersonal relations. In fact, in interpersonal relations, one must treat even there personal enemies well:
Exodus 23:4-5:

If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey wandering away, you shall surely return it to him. If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying helpless under its load, you shall refrain from leaving it to him, you shall surely release it with him.

Remember that in an agricultural society, the ox/donkey were very important in terms of farming. Certainly, the stories of David and Saul also show how the just man is merciful to his enemies–David, even though Saul was pursuing him with the intent to murder him and Saul had lost God’s favor of the Kingship of Israel, showed mercy both to Saul (such as in the cave when he had the chance to kill him in his sleep) and Saul’s family.

Judaism, while it doesn’t have a defined picture of “Hell” as was more fully revealed in the New Testament, as a long tradition/understanding reflected in the Talmud and rabbinic writings (and supported in scripture) that there is an afterlife and it is based upon “works”. Thus references to resurrection, some to eternal life, some to eternal destruction. In fact, one is “written into the book of life” (according to rabbinic judaism) each year during the 10 days of Awe between Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur based upon ones deeds (if good outweigh bad).

My understanding–limited I admit for I was not a very religious Jew (like you I am, a “convert”)–is that while Judaism believes in a Gehenna, it is not the eternal existence in a state of abject torment that Christians see it is, but that it is a place/state of spiritual purification before moving onto Olam Haba (the World to Come). The worst fate a soul could suffer would be annihilation or serving longer than a 12 month sentence Gehenna, but my understanding is that those are rare exception–someone would have to almost go out of their way to ‘merit’ this sort of punishment (this is a far cry from the dreadful statistics given in St. Leonard’s Sermon–please note, I mean no disrespect or animosity towards St. Leonard when I continuously bring up his sermon).

 

[Contarini]

My understanding–limited I admit for I was not a very religious Jew (like you I am, a “convert”)–is that while Judaism believes in a Gehenna, it is not the eternal existence in a state of abject torment that Christians see it is, but that it is a place/state of spiritual purification before moving onto Olam Haba (the World to Come). The worst fate a soul could suffer would be annihilation or serving longer than a 12 month sentence Gehenna, but my understanding is that those are rare exception–someone would have to almost go out of their way to ‘merit’ this sort of punishment (this is a far cry from the dreadful statistics given in St. Leonard’s Sermon–please note, I mean no disrespect or animosity towards St. Leonard when I continuously bring up his sermon).

You’re certainly right that traditional Judaism has a much less horrific view of the afterlife than traditional Christianity. Very strict Judaism, and moderately conservative almost-hopeful-universalists like myself or Pope Benedict (presumptuous of me, I know), are about in the same place on this point.

I didn’t realize you were of Jewish origin. That does make a difference, I think. I can see why you would feel drawn back to Judaism. I don’t think I could give up belief in Jesus, but if I had a Jewish heritage I’d certainly feel drawn in that direction. As it is, I’m certainly not going to convert to Judaism.

Edwin

 

[nsper7]

You’re certainly right that traditional Judaism has a much less horrific view of the afterlife than traditional Christianity. Very strict Judaism, and moderately conservative almost-hopeful-universalists like myself or Pope Benedict (presumptuous of me, I know), are about in the same place on this point.

My understanding is that Judaism has a different philosophy on life in general. Basically, one should not love and obey God and do goods out of a desire for future reward, but because it is the good thing to do and brings its own reward and goodness in this life. Judaism is much less concerned with the hereafter than Christianity is.

EDIT: It is also my understanding that Orthodox Jews see the different rules and rituals they follow as being a joy granted by God, not a burden imposed by Him.

 

[benidict]

Catholicism acknowledges the right (sometimes even responsibility) of Just War and self-defense/defense of others. My understanding is that when the OT addresses “an eye for an eye” it is:

A law to impose limits on justice and prevent vicious revenge (in other words, the MAXIMUM punishment that can be inflicted is ‘measure for measure’) and this was a judicial policy, not so much about interpersonal relations. In fact, in interpersonal relations, one must treat even there personal enemies well:

Remember that in an agricultural society, the ox/donkey were very important in terms of farming. Certainly, the stories of David and Saul also show how the just man is merciful to his enemies–David, even though Saul was pursuing him with the intent to murder him and Saul had lost God’s favor of the Kingship of Israel, showed mercy both to Saul (such as in the cave when he had the chance to kill him in his sleep) and Saul’s family.

My understanding–limited I admit for I was not a very religious Jew (like you I am, a “convert”)–is that while Judaism believes in a Gehenna, it is not the eternal existence in a state of abject torment that Christians see it is, but that it is a place/state of spiritual purification before moving onto Olam Haba (the World to Come). The worst fate a soul could suffer would be annihilation or serving longer than a 12 month sentence Gehenna, but my understanding is that those are rare exception–someone would have to almost go out of their way to ‘merit’ this sort of punishment (this is a far cry from the dreadful statistics given in St. Leonard’s Sermon–please note, I mean no disrespect or animosity towards St. Leonard when I continuously bring up his sermon).

nsper. what branch of Judaism did you convert from? do you still go to synagouge from time to time? might not hurt. then you can get the whole picture, see both covenants if you will. as far a Judaism being more selfless and such? id have to agree with that to an extent. the Jews i have known, do good, just to do good. not for any eternal reward. they seem to have a different view of salvation than christians. depends what branch your from though on that. i dont think the conservatives or liberals even believe in a literal heaven do they? my undertanding is the Orthodox do. Peace

 

[Kaninchen]

The Law of Moses says to love your neighbor and hate your enemy. Jesus says to love your enemy.

Do not unto your neighbor what you would not have him do until you; this is the whole Law; the rest is commentary. - Hillel

The OT says eye for an eye, Jesus says repay no evil with evil.

The ‘eye for eye’ formula is about levels of recompense.

 

[Shin]

As I have discussions with others and learn about Judaism and Christianity, I come to the conclusion that Judaism is a more loving, selfless and pure religion than Christianity (please note, I am not addressing the matter of which faith is Truth).

I come to this conclusion because it seems like Christianity (Catholic or Protestant) is at some level based purely on human selfishness. For example, a person does a good deed because they either:

A) Fear of punishment (i.e. Hell) for failure to perform the good deeds (and verses in Scripture such as the judgment of the sheep and goats points to this)
B) Desiring of reward (i.e. Heaven, shorter time in Purgatory, higher spot in Heaven, etc.) by doing good deeds

In Orthodox Judaism, since there is no concept of Hell (although there is a concept of spiritual purification of a person’s sins before they enter the World to Come [Olam Haba]; while some might see this spiritual purification as a punishment and in the Hebrew Scriptures, God does reward people [although often not because they deserved it, but because He is depicted as being a loving and merciful Father in the OT) and it is viewed that the performance of good deeds (Mitzvot) is the reward in itself and that we should love God in this life not out of fear of some punishment or desire for a future reward. Thus, when someone who is Jewish performs a good deed, it is out of a purer motive than when a Christian does so.

Now many Christians might say that is not true and that they do good/avoid evil for the same reasons (i.e. pure love for God), but because the fear of Hell and the promise of Heaven hang over the Christian’s head, how can any Christian truly claim to know their own motives so well? Those threats always loom over us.

After all, what response would we give if Christ appeared to us and asked if we would suffer horrendously, but said that there would be no reward, either here or in the hereafter, for this suffering we would undertake and there would be punishment, either here or in the hereafter, if we refused?

Rewards in Heaven have to do with God’s love, not with metal trinkets. There’s no inferiority there.

When we suffer in this life we both gain its value in penance and gain merit for the suffering. It is not meaningless.
[/quote]

 

[Contarini]

My understanding is that Judaism has a different philosophy on life in general. Basically, one should not love and obey God and do goods out of a desire for future reward, but because it is the good thing to do and brings its own reward and goodness in this life. Judaism is much less concerned with the hereafter than Christianity is.

EDIT: It is also my understanding that Orthodox Jews see the different rules and rituals they follow as being a joy granted by God, not a burden imposed by Him.

I agree, though I don’t have much personal experience of Orthodox Jews (I regularly take my Religions of the World students to a nearby Conservative synagogue and have gotten to know that congregation and its rabbi fairly well).

However, I don’t see Christianity as being about reward either, though certainly it can degenerate into that.

The key concept in traditional Christian understandings of eternal reward is the “Beatific Vision”–seeing God. That’s what we hope for.

Edwin

 

[MrZetterlund]

Please Watch:

youtube.com/watch?v=sV2rUzZtBJI

 

[BryanM27]

My understanding is that Judaism has a different philosophy on life in general. Basically, one should not love and obey God and do goods out of a desire for future reward, but because it is the good thing to do and brings its own reward and goodness in this life. Judaism is much less concerned with the hereafter than Christianity is.

EDIT: It is also my understanding that Orthodox Jews see the different rules and rituals they follow as being a joy granted by God, not a burden imposed by Him.

I am not, nor have I have ever been, Jewish. I have never studied, in depth, the Jewish faith. What I have learned from the religious education I have received, is that Judaism is all about the Law of Moses.

It can be argued that just as you have said Christians follow Christ out of fear of Hell and in the hopes of reward in Heaven, Jews observe the Law in hopes of reward in this life or the next. Before the Exile they had no concept of an afterlife besides Shaol. Shaol was nothing. An empty vacuum. All rewards, therefore, must come in this life. They believed that by following the Law they would receive favor from God in the form of money, longer life, more children, property and fertile crops.

They feared, especially after the incident with the Golden Ox at Sinai, that if they failed to keep the commandmants they would be punished. Look at the OT again. How many times does it either demonstrate or promise that God will punish those who fail to follow him?

Off the top of my head I can think of Abraham (laying with his slave), Moses (smashing the rock), Saul, Lot’s wife, Adam and Eve (original sin), Tower of Babel, the Prophets speaking about why the Jews were in exile, the list goes on.

Now look at the NT. How often do you see Christ, the apostles and the authors of the letters discussing love?

 

[nsper7]

1. We/Christians (rather Jewish believers or Gentile believers) are not motiviated to follow the gospel out of fear of Hell or desire to earn our way to heaven. Jesus said that we love him, we will follow his commandments. We have faith through the grace of God, and out of that faith, comes a desire to follow Christ’s commandments which are to love on another and love God. The sacraments assist us in our faith/grace.

Is that the proverbial ‘royal we’ you are using? Perhaps your faith/obedience/etc. is motivated by love for Christ, although from a psychological standpoint, I could ask how you can ever really know since the threat of Hell/promise of Heaven does hang over our heads and always has and always will. Can you really step out of the Catholic theological ‘box’ (Hell is threatened/Heaven is promised) and say you would follow God if there was no threat of Hell or promise of Heaven?

If Christ came to and asked you to make a horrendous sacrifice, but said you there would be no punishment (either here or in the hereafter) for refusal and no reward (either here or in the hereafter) for making this sacrifice, would you make that sacrifice?

 

[TheQuestioner]

ok…so your reasoning is that since they do not believe in hell adherents to Judaism do good deeds out of the love of God and neighbor and since they do believe in hell Christians therefore must do their good deeds out of fear of hell…

Ask yourself this…do these conclusions necessarily follow from their premise. Exactly why wouldn’t a Christian be able to do good deeds out of the love of God and neighbor? Sure there is “hell” in the background somewhere, but that would only serve to ensure that they do good deeds more often. That does not exclude all of their good needs from being out of love. You seem to be using the argument “but how does that Christian know the fear of hell is not what is driving him at one time?” I would simply answer, “how does he know it is another time?” We cannot make assumptions about what is going on in anyone’s actions psychologically. The subconscious cannot be used as an arguing point since it is so elusive. Your conclusions do not follow from the premise.

Besides, we Christians are told that in the end of the good works we do the ones that will count the most during judgment day are the ones done out of the love of God and for Him. Essentially we are supposed to love God, then love others in God, then love ourselves for the sake of God. All our actions are to be done for Him. Sure, doing an act out of fear of hell is acceptable, but if that is the only reason why we do things then these acts are done out of imperfect love. Hence the terms perfect and imperfect contrition (imperfect contrition being that you are sorry for you since because you fear going to hell, which again is nice, but wont help much on judgment day, and perfect contrition being when you are sorry for your sins because you offended God, much in the same way you would be sorry for offending a friend).

You know what I think…and I will gander into the subconscious here (call me hypocrite if you wish), but I think that though you have Faith, what you lack is Hope. You might seem to think that in this system of heaven in hell there is no way you would make it, so you are obsessed with trying to find a way to, even if it means looking into another faith that doesn’t recognize those concepts. You call it a more loving faith simply to give yourself an excuse to leave this one. Sure it may start with threads like this, but may end in a full blown conversion. The only solution I see is to work on, and pray for, the gift of Hope. Hope in your salvation and there is no need to obsess over hell. My whole day isn’t consumed with going to or avoiding hell, i barely even think about it. More often I think about whether my actions please or displease God because I love Him.

Pray for Hope, work on Hope, have Hope.

 

[Robbinson]

Is that the proverbial ‘royal we’ you are using? Perhaps your faith/obedience/etc. is motivated by love for Christ, although from a psychological standpoint, I could ask how you can ever really know since the threat of Hell/promise of Heaven does hang over our heads and always has and always will. Can you really step out of the Catholic theological ‘box’ (Hell is threatened/Heaven is promised) and say you would follow God if there was no threat of Hell or promise of Heaven?

nsper7 - yes, I am motivated out of my love of Christ and of God. As to whether I was referring to the “royal we” - yes, I was, as Jesus himself told us (His words) that if we love him, we will follow His commandments (John 14:15).

I sincerely tell you that I am not motivated at all by a fear of Hell - although the thought of being without God is repugnant to me. That is not a “threat” to me, but a reality that I can’t imagine desiring, and yet I am not motivated to do good out of fear of that - I am motivated to do what pleases God out of my love for God, just as I do nice things for my wife out of my love for her, not because I fear she will be mean to me if I don’t and not because I am looking for some “reward” for being nice.

If Christ came to and asked you to make a horrendous sacrifice, but said you there would be no punishment (either here or in the hereafter) for refusal and no reward (either here or in the hereafter) for making this sacrifice, would you make that sacrifice?

Absolutely, without question and without hesitation - out of love. Its all about Love. Our relationship with God, our relationship with others. There is an “obedience of faith” (per Paul (Romans)), but I believe that is an obeidence which springs out of love.

If you haven’t found that yet, keep searching, its worth the effort.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[nsper7]

You know what I think…and I will gander into the subconscious here (call me hypocrite if you wish), but I think that though you have Faith, what you lack is Hope. You might seem to think that in this system of heaven in hell there is no way you would make it, so you are obsessed with trying to find a way to, even if it means looking into another faith that doesn’t recognize those concepts. You call it a more loving faith simply to give yourself an excuse to leave this one. Sure it may start with threads like this, but may end in a full blown conversion. The only solution I see is to work on, and pray for, the gift of Hope. Hope in your salvation and there is no need to obsess over hell. My whole day isn’t consumed with going to or avoiding hell, i barely even think about it. More often I think about whether my actions please or displease God because I love Him.

Pray for Hope, work on Hope, have Hope.

But how can I have hope when I read the dreadful statistics of St. Leonard (or other Saints)?

nsper7 - yes, I am motivated out of my love of Christ and of God. As to whether I was referring to the “royal we” - yes, I was, as Jesus himself told us (His words) that if we love him, we will follow His commandments (John 14:15).

I sincerely tell you that I am not motivated at all by a fear of Hell - although the thought of being without God is repugnant to me. That is not a “threat” to me, but a reality that I can’t imagine desiring, and yet I am not motivated to do good out of fear of that - I am motivated to do what pleases God out of my love for God, just as I do nice things for my wife out of my love for her, not because I fear she will be mean to me if I don’t and not because I am looking for some “reward” for being nice.

I always find the husband/wife comparison a tad weak since, if you had not wanted to, you could have decided not to marry the person who is now your wife and I assume you would have suffered very little repercussions. If you wanted to marry a different woman instead of the one you married or not wanted to get married at all, you could have with no/minimal punishment attached.

If one does not want to “marry” God, you are out of luck. After all, there is only one God and if you don’t choose Him you go straight to Hell (unless you did not choose Him due to invincible ignorance). And remember that Hell is not just the lack of God (after all, the Limb of the Infants is described as lacking God’s supernatural presence, but possesses natural happiness), but the presence of extreme and eternal torment. I hope your wife did not use a threat like that to get you to marry her…