Is Judaism a More Selfless/Pure/Loving Religion than Christianity?

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nsper7 said:
But how can I have hope when I read the dreadful statistics of St. Leonard (or other Saints)?

I always find the husband/wife comparison a tad weak since, if you had not wanted to, you could have decided not to marry the person who is now your wife and I assume you would have suffered very little repercussions. If you wanted to marry a different woman instead of the one you married or not wanted to get married at all, you could have with no/minimal punishment attached.

If one does not want to “marry” God, you are out of luck. After all, there is only one God and if you don’t choose Him you go straight to Hell (unless you did not choose Him due to invincible ignorance). And remember that Hell is not just the lack of God (after all, the Limb of the Infants is described as lacking God’s supernatural presence, but possesses natural happiness), but the presence of extreme and eternal torment. I hope your wife did not use a threat like that to get you to marry her…
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Nsper7 - to be honest, i’m not really sure how to reply to this post as you and I have very different images of (i) the husband/wife relationship and (ii) the relationship between believer and God.

To me, the relationship between husband and wife, who become “one flesh” (“echad”) per Genesis, is, upon that union, one of “Love” and an eternal relationship. The fact that I chose to marry and could have chosen not to marry is a red herring - once I committed to her and, she to me, in God’s eyes our union is forever and I do love my wife uncondtionionally and act with respect to her out of love, and never out of obligation or “fear of consequences”. Thus, for me at least, the analogy holds water.

Putting aside the analogy - Paul tells us that, in fact, Love is the most important virture - that without Love, he/we have nothing. True Love of God will motivate our behavior more than fear of punishment or hope of reward.

My reply began as a response to your assertion that Christians are motivated principally out of fear or hope of reward and I contest that view. There may well be Chrisitans who hold that view - but that is not, I would say, what scripture is telling us. Of course the consequences of not believing and accepting Christ are set forth in the Gospel and so can’t be totally disregarded, as are passages describing the rewards of belief. But just as we can’t work for our salvation, (faith comes from grace, and then is assisted by our cooperation), so our relationship with God, I believe, can only be fully fullfilled through love and motivation through love (rather than fear of consequences or hope of reward).

Ironically, Judaism holds more of the former, than the latter.

As you have not, over the years, taken my up on my offer for PMs (as two Jewish believers) in responses to this or other posts you have made, I’ll leave it at that and will pray for you in your continued search for a loving and fullifilling relationship with God, to supplement your search for the truth.

Blessings,

Brian
 
nsper7 said:
But how can I have hope when I read the dreadful statistics of St. Leonard (or other Saints)?
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Man, i’ve heard of those startling statistics, but to be honest it doesn’t bother me at all. If you just do what is right, and when you mess up repent and resolve to try again you’ll be ok. You need to read some of the writings of St. Faustina. God is way more merciful than we think. It’s not as if God is sitting on his throne waiting to see whether or not you will make the cut. He’s right next to you trying to help you reach perfection. If you keep trying He wont abandon you. So even if I mess up, and it really hurts if I do because I know I upset God who has been so good to me, in the end I know i can go back to Him in confession and start over if my contrition is perfect. He doesn’t abandon you when you mess up, he helps you get back up.

Also, you also have to realize that hell, and heaven, are not so much about reward and punishment as they are a matter of fact. Your fear of hell seems to also stem from a lack of understanding about how they truly work. If you want to know more about it just say so, otherwise I wont waste your time.

Whatever the statistics are, to tell you the truth I, nor you, should really care. They should just let you know that it’s not easy, but if you try hard and keep trying then you have little to worry about and you shouldn’t be worried about ending up as one of the “many people who are in hell”. I’m not saying I’ll get into heaven 100%, or trying to be presumptuous, but trust in God’s mercy. Realize that you depend on Him and His mercy in everything. Basically, you’re a baby in his hands. And most of all, and this is very important, you are a Child of God. He wont abandon you.
 
To me, the relationship between husband and wife, who become “one flesh” (“echad”) per Genesis, is, upon that union, one of “Love” and an eternal relationship. The fact that I chose to marry and could have chosen not to marry is a red herring - once I committed to her and, she to me, in God’s eyes our union is forever and I do love my wife uncondtionionally and act with respect to her out of love, and never out of obligation or “fear of consequences”. Thus, for me at least, the analogy holds water.
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Perhaps you misunderstood why I find the husband/wife analogy a poor analogy.

It is not a red herring though. If you had chosen not to marry the woman who is now your wife (or your wife had chosen not to marry you), there would not have dreadful consequences for either of you.

With God it is different: if one chooses not to “marry” God, then there are dreadful consequences.

Thus, the comparison fails. You chose to marry the woman because you WANTED to and I assume there would have been no serious repercussions had you chosen not to. Regardless of whether a person WANTS to or not, if they fail to “marry” God, then they suffer the most serious repercussions a person can suffer: eternity in extreme torment in Hell.
I did not think that your Church identified sanctity with infallibility.
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Technically, you are correct. All Post-Scriptural revelations (i.e. apparitions, including the major Marian ones such as Fatima and Lourdes, any Saintly apparitions, etc.), after investigation by the Church, can at most be deemed ‘private revelation’ which means it does not contravene/disagree with Church doctrine/dogma, but it is not required that the faithful believe in it. It is a real gray area.
 
nsper7 said:
Technically, you are correct. All Post-Scriptural revelations (i.e. apparitions, including the major Marian ones such as Fatima and Lourdes, any Saintly apparitions, etc.), after investigation by the Church, can at most be deemed ‘private revelation’ which means it does not contravene/disagree with Church doctrine/dogma, but it is not required that the faithful believe in it. It is a real gray area.
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So why do you keep citing this sermon of Saint Leonard? Given that one of Pope Benedict’s favorite theologians is Hans Urs von Balthasar, who thought we could hope that everyone might be saved in the end, it seems unreasonable for you to keep returning to this one sermon by one Catholic saint (though I grant that there are others who have said similar things). Clearly one can believe different things about this within the Catholic Church.

Why do you, personally, find hell such a big deal?

I figure that if God exists at all, He loves me a lot more than I love myself, and so if I do go to hell it will be because I’m really, really determined to do so.

The only sense in which I fear hell is that I fear my own propensity toward evil–toward self-deception, self-centeredness, and hardness of heart.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
So why do you keep citing this sermon of Saint Leonard? Given that one of Pope Benedict’s favorite theologians is Hans Urs von Balthasar, who thought we could hope that everyone might be saved in the end, it seems unreasonable for you to keep returning to this one sermon by one Catholic saint (though I grant that there are others who have said similar things). Clearly one can believe different things about this within the Catholic Church.

Why do you, personally, find hell such a big deal?

I figure that if God exists at all, He loves me a lot more than I love myself, and so if I do go to hell it will be because I’m really, really determined to do so.

The only sense in which I fear hell is that I fear my own propensity toward evil–toward self-deception, self-centeredness, and hardness of heart.

Edwin
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For me, Hell has been the center of my faith. I could care less about God and I certainly want to know Him as little as possible: fear of Hell. That is brought me to faith years ago (first as an Evangelical Protestant) and that is what I care about: avoiding Hell.

If Jesus asked me to something but said that there would be no punishment or reward for not doing or doing it, I’d refused right then and there.

I don’t want to know God, at least as He has been revealed to me, and if Hell weren’t so bad (i.e. if it were as Dante described the Limbo of the Infants: lack of the Beatific Vision but the presence of natural happiness), I think I would choose that.
 
nsper7 said:
For me, Hell has been the center of my faith. I could care less about God and I certainly want to know Him as little as possible: fear of Hell. That is brought me to faith years ago (first as an Evangelical Protestant) and that is what I care about: avoiding Hell.

If Jesus asked me to something but said that there would be no punishment or reward for not doing or doing it, I’d refused right then and there.

I don’t want to know God, at least as He has been revealed to me, and if Hell weren’t so bad (i.e. if it were as Dante described the Limbo of the Infants: lack of the Beatific Vision but the presence of natural happiness), I think I would choose that.
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If that’s really all there is for you–if you have been a Christian for years and you still “don’t want to know God” and “could care less about God,” then I think that it might be good for your soul to give up on Christianity, for a while at least. Maybe you should find the nearest synagogue and start attending there.

I would like to think that you would eventually find your way back to Christianity. But I think that it would be better for you to be a Jew or even an agnostic out of love of truth and goodness than a Christian out of pure fear (if your fear is really as unrelated to love as you say).

I don’t know why you are so sure that Christianity is true–I don’t see the evidence as being by any means uncontrovertible, and I can’t imagine what evidence could possibly get me to believe in the kind of Christianity you seem to believe in. But I’m not you:)

I wish you every blessing, wherever you end up. Seek truth and goodness as you understand them. Find what it is you do love just because it is good, and start there. I am confident that the true God will find a way to reveal Himself to you, even if you don’t recognize it explicitly.

In Christ,

Edwin
 
nsper7 said:
For me, Hell has been the center of my faith. I could care less about God and I certainly want to know Him as little as possible: fear of Hell. That is brought me to faith years ago (first as an Evangelical Protestant) and that is what I care about: avoiding Hell.

If Jesus asked me to something but said that there would be no punishment or reward for not doing or doing it, I’d refused right then and there.

I don’t want to know God, at least as He has been revealed to me, and if Hell weren’t so bad (i.e. if it were as Dante described the Limbo of the Infants: lack of the Beatific Vision but the presence of natural happiness), I think I would choose that.
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Man…there’s so many things wrong with this that I just simply don’t know where to start.

Listen…loving God is what gets you into heaven. It’s the only thing that can. From your post, it seems you have a long way to go in order to get there. As it is, it seems that this path of merely “avoiding hell” wont land you into heaven, it’s the wrong path. You may have heard this before, and if you didn’t listen to it then then please listen to it now. As it stands, with the attitude you have towards God now you seem to be in grave danger of hell. I mean…its not even like you are new to the faith and haven’t encountered religion before and so you are driven by reward/punishment. You’re familiar with it, you know the tenants, you know enough to join the Catholic Church, and yet still through all this you are simply driven by the fear of hell, and not by the love of God. Not only that but it kind of seems like that doesn’t bother you, and it seems like you don’t even really want to love God so much as you want to get into heaven, which is a huge issue. At this point all I can say is, and again re-iterate, loving God is the only way of getting into heaven.

Btw, the situation with Jesus telling you to do something but there will be no reward or punishment for doing or not doing it is impossible and here is why. You didn’t respond to my last post but it seems you need a proper understanding of heaven and hell.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read this last part.

Ok, so how heaven and hell work is like this.

You have to realize that heaven and hell don’t work the way most people believe. Even I was mislead at first with the T.V. version of heaven and hell, and alot of Catholics seem to not really know about the way it really works either, mostly because the T.V. definition was enough for them. You know that definition, do good God sends you to heaven, don’t make the cut and you go to hell? Well, that’s wrong. How it works is more like, but not exactly like, this.

Inside every intellectual being (humans and angels) is a large gaping hole in their “heart”. This “hole” exists in the spirit. This hole is also of infinite size. Now many people on earth try to fill this hole with many things. Material objects, lust, gambling, greed, intoxication and drugs, even money and a career. But in the end, none of these things can fill this hole up because none of these things are infinite. This is why people are generally unhappy. No one is completely happy. BUT, there is one and only one way to fill this hole up, by filling it with the infinite. You guessed it, God the infinite one. This is why marriage, having kids, working at a meaningful job that a person is “made for” gives you a truer happiness. These are all avenues of grace by which love enters that hole little by little, and God is Love, and Truth, and Justice, and Peace, and Life. Now if you make a good effort in life and keep trying, then when you die, if God sees that your intent was good and you truly wanted to have Him in your heart, then He will fully enter into your heart, and you will be in heaven. However, if your effort is poor and you generally seem to not really want God in your heart, but you are determined in your impenetance to not admit that you rely on God, then He will not enter your heart, not so much because you are deemed unworthy (none are worthy), but because you must choose for Him to, because Love is a choice. Impenitence is the choice of not wanted God to enter into your heart, essentially. When you die then, and go from a temporal state to an eternal state, you enter into an eternal state of hell.

So basically, you are a top that is tetering. You can either fall to the left into the darkness, or to the right and into heaven. Its up to you.

Now, why does this hole exist? Simple. In order to comprehend the infinite, you must be able to. In order to maintain the infinite, you must be able to contain it. So in order for you to have your heart to be filled with infinite happiness, you must have a hole of infinite size in your heart. And because of free will God will not just fill it. Love demands free will, so in a weird way the only way to love God is to choose him. But more importantly this all means one thing as well. In order for there to be a heaven, there has to be a hell.

It sucks, but its just like that. Logic demands it. And God is Logic my friend, at least the way i see it.

So really, merely fill your heart with God. Be good, and you have nothing to worry about. Those other people who end up in hell, to be honest, whatever. It sucks for them, but it doesn’t really affect my or your salvation. Salvation is not about chances, it’s about choice. So if there are in hell they must have really messed up. As for us, we have to worry about ourselves. Attain salvation. Look to the will of God first, then to your salvation, then to the needs of others, than to your physical needs, in that order.

God bless, and may St. Michael the Archangel protect you.
 
nsper7 said:
For me, Hell has been the center of my faith. I could care less about God and I certainly want to know Him as little as possible: fear of Hell. That is brought me to faith years ago (first as an Evangelical Protestant) and that is what I care about: avoiding Hell.

If Jesus asked me to something but said that there would be no punishment or reward for not doing or doing it, I’d refused right then and there.

I don’t want to know God, at least as He has been revealed to me, and if Hell weren’t so bad (i.e. if it were as Dante described the Limbo of the Infants: lack of the Beatific Vision but the presence of natural happiness), I think I would choose that.
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I appreciate your honesty - although this is not the “gospel” (i.e., the gospel is not aht we believe because of fear of Hell) - although there are protestant denominations who preach that (Jonathan Edwards being perhaps the most famous protestant preacher who taught this).

I’ll pray for you - hoping you can/will ultimately develop the loving relationship with God which scripture tells us (and all my heart believes) God is looking for with us.

Fear is not, ultimately, an effective long-term motivator - Love is.

If you are Catholic, perhaps you should have some discussions with your local priest and/or he can refer you to someone who can assist you in your study and walk of faith as a spiritual advisor. These are big issues to try to resolve on boards like these.

Blessings in your journey.

Brian
 
nsper7 said:
For me, Hell has been the center of my faith. I could care less about God and I certainly want to know Him as little as possible: fear of Hell. That is brought me to faith years ago (first as an Evangelical Protestant) and that is what I care about: avoiding Hell.

If Jesus asked me to something but said that there would be no punishment or reward for not doing or doing it, I’d refused right then and there.

I don’t want to know God, at least as He has been revealed to me, and if Hell weren’t so bad (i.e. if it were as Dante described the Limbo of the Infants: lack of the Beatific Vision but the presence of natural happiness), I think I would choose that.
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I’m really sorry to hear that. I think faith based on fear of Hell, while definitely present in the history of Christianity (and currently for some) takes a terrible psychological and spiritual toll on the believer.

You have only one life. It seems sad that you are spending it in a state of fear. The history of Christianity is quite varied and you can find evidence for whatever you are looking for. However I agree with the people who wonder why this is so important and say that focusing on hope/love is more important.

Heaven and Hell are part of Christian theology but it’s also important to remember that God is merciful.

One thing I have heard from many people is that it is important to face your fears. This doesn’t mean dying to see what happens, but talking through why the fear of punishment is such a strong motivator for you. Forget what other people think and have said, and focus on your own life with a counselor or spiritual director; that is my suggestion. That does not sound like a “spiritual” answer but it doesn’t seem like you are spiritually motivated other than fearing damnation. I suggest understanding yourself comes first; then decisions about spirituality.

As for your question, I think it’s not as important to ask if one “religion” is more compassionate than another, than if the people in one religion are more compassionate than others. And I think that is hard to answer because there is tremendous diversity in Christianity. There are also difference of opinion in Judaism as you know.

If you were raised Jewish/have a Jewish background, how did you get to the point where the fear of Hell became so important? My apologies if you’ve already answered this question.

Also, I have heard from non-Christians that it is very easy to feel and be outnumbered in this country in which the majority of people have some at least nominal connection to Christianity. This is especially true during the holidays. Could your fears of hell be related to feeling “different” and not being accepted by God unless you are “the same” as the people around you?
 
nsper7 said:
I don’t see how I can drop it. After all, that is what my Christian faith is based on. It is what brought me to faith and then I read things like St. Leonard’s sermon or other things and it leads me to wonder how can I let go of the ‘Hell obsession’ unless I am going to take the step of disbelieving Christianity?
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No, you’re Christian faith is based on God’s mercy and love (for God so loved the world . . . ). I would also advise you to read “Divine Mercy in my Soul: Diary of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska”. Here is an excerpt wherein Jesus is speaking to sister Faustina:

“Let the greatest sinners place their trust in My mercy. They have the right before others to trust in the abyss of My mercy. My daughter, write about My mercy towards tormented souls. Souls that make an appeal to My mercy delight Me. To such souls I grant even more graces than they ask. I cannot punish even the greatest sinner if he makes an appeal to My compassion, but on the contrary, I justify him in My unfathomable and inscrutable mercy. Write: before I come as a just Judge, I first open wide the door of My mercy. . . .”
 
Nsper7

I’ve been thinking about you search, your anxst and I can tell you are sincerely searching and struggling.

Don’t dispair - you have made a bold and important step in joining the Church and our faith and understanding of doctrine will naturally grow over time and you are young, both in years, and in your years as a Chrisitian.

Pray about it - really - if you are having a difficult time relating to God in a loving relationship and are having difficulty in getting your hands around doctrinal or scriptural discussions of Love, reach out directly to God; pray to Jesus, pray to Mary and the saints for intercession and pray for understanding. This won’t likely be an overnight changing event, but I do believe in the power of prayer and creating a personal relationship with Christ will change your life.

Christianity is a promise of a personal, loving relationship with God. This is different than the message and teaching of the two other major Abrahamic religions (Judaism and Islam - although Judaism is much closer to Christianity in this regard). While we have much in common - this is a critical difference (and ironically an aspect that you are struggling with).

If you think about it - while perhaps you have had difficulty expressing love in your life (am I on to something?), deep down, I suspect you have a desire to “be loved” - and that is what God does, He “loves us” - he loved us so much, he sent his only Son, Jesus to die for us. For those who believe in Him and trust in Him, that Love will ultimately turn our hearts to “Love Him” and each other. Paul says that we will know one another by how we “love oneanother”. That is a work in progress of most of us and may seem impossible - but as Jesus told us, with God, all things are possible.

We will all pray for you.

Blessings,

Brian
 
Fear of Hell will not get you into Heaven, nor will doing works of mercy.

We are saved only by our faith in Christ. If your faith is based on fear of Hell, I would urge you to pray and ask God to help you heal.

And back to the OP for a moment, I think you will find after a review of the scriptures that the NT is almost exclusively about love and how to love others. The OT is all about the Law of Moses, and there is no forgiveness for failing to live up to the Law.

OT Law prevents you from giving aid to some people because they are “unclean.” Is that love?
 
Listen…loving God is what gets you into heaven. It’s the only thing that can. From your post, it seems you have a long way to go in order to get there. As it is, it seems that this path of merely “avoiding hell” wont land you into heaven, it’s the wrong path. You may have heard this before, and if you didn’t listen to it then then please listen to it now. As it stands, with the attitude you have towards God now you seem to be in grave danger of hell. I mean…its not even like you are new to the faith and haven’t encountered religion before and so you are driven by reward/punishment. You’re familiar with it, you know the tenants, you know enough to join the Catholic Church, and yet still through all this you are simply driven by the fear of hell, and not by the love of God. Not only that but it kind of seems like that doesn’t bother you, and it seems like you don’t even really want to love God so much as you want to get into heaven, which is a huge issue. At this point all I can say is, and again re-iterate, loving God is the only way of getting into heaven.
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Fear of Hell will not get you into Heaven, nor will doing works of mercy.
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Then I suppose I am damned and for that I hate God even more. I only wish I could have been one of the Roman soldier scourging and nailing Jesus to the cross and I only wish that I was powerful enough to surpass even a Hitler or a Stalin in terms of sheer evil and brutality, to watch the innocent suffer horrendously on my orders, to order execution after brutal execution and deny millions the chance at Last Rites!

How can I love God if He only threatens Hell over me? You say if I only have faith out of fear of Hell, then I am damned, but how can I love under that circumstance?
 
nsper7 said:
Then I suppose I am damned and for that I hate God even more. I only wish I could have been one of the Roman soldier scourging and nailing Jesus to the cross and I only wish that I was powerful enough to surpass even a Hitler or a Stalin in terms of sheer evil and brutality, to watch the innocent suffer horrendously on my orders, to order execution after brutal execution and deny millions the chance at Last Rites!

How can I love God if He only threatens Hell over me? You say if I only have faith out of fear of Hell, then I am damned, but how can I love under that circumstance?
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Sigh…ok, re-read my post. If you read it carefully you will find that simply, hell is not held over anyone’s head. It is simply a matter of circumstance. It’s more of a fact than a threat. Basically, “if you do a, then b will have to happen, so don’t do a”. That pretty much sums up the way it all works. So really now, don’t so sad over this.

Also, you misunderstand what love is. Love is not merely a feeling. If love was merely a feeling then it would be unfair for Him to tell us to love our enemies. Love (Agape love) is a love revolving around self sacrifice. It is therefore an action. Make God the center of your life in any way you can. You don’t have to feel all happy and bubbly inside. Even if you feel nothing but anger do it (I have at times), because that action is what love is, not mere feeling.
 
Also, you misunderstand what love is. Love is not merely a feeling. If love was merely a feeling then it would be unfair for Him to tell us to love our enemies. Love (Agape love) is a love revolving around self sacrifice. It is therefore an action. Make God the center of your life in any way you can. You don’t have to feel all happy and bubbly inside. Even if you feel nothing but anger do it (I have at times), because that action is what love is, not mere feeling.
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But why should I want to do this…other than fear of Hell of course? Why should I care about God other than fear of Hell?
 
nsper7 said:
But why should I want to do this…other than fear of Hell of course? Why should I care about God other than fear of Hell?
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You should care about God because he knew you before you were formed in your mother’s womb.

I’m assuming you care about your mother and father, who gave you life? Well God is the Father that gives all of us life. You should love Him because he sacrificed Himself on the cross so that all you wouldn’t be bound to Hell from the moment you were born.

Out of love, He opened the gates of Heaven and offered the gift of eternal life. He loves you no matter what you decide (unconditional love), but although He is all-loving, He is also just. He will judge all of us when the time comes.

If you want to be judged by the Law, so be it. But understand that no one has ever fully kept the Law of Moses. By breaking even one part of it whether you meant to or not, you are breaking Covenant with God and that has penalties.
 
nsper7 said:
But why should I want to do this…other than fear of Hell of course? Why should I care about God other than fear of Hell?
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Because He loved you and died for you, just like your parents love you and would die for you.
 
This is how St Basil-a Christian-put it:
**If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.
**
He’s speaking about different levels of spiritual maturity-a realm no faith can lay exclusive right to.

But nowhere do I find a clearer statement or more complete picture of the nature and central role of* love* in God’s plan-or in God, Himself- than in Christianity, where a love so powerful it would sacrifice itself for others is given absolute the highest value.
 
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