Is Judas in hell?

[PRmerger]

I know some very religious Catholics who were very happy when Osama Bin laden died, and they started some notes and threads about how happy they are because osama is in “hell” right now, but I** don’t judge a religion by some of it’s followers, and I know that Catholicism teach that nobody can know where the soul is, except maybe for saints right? **
Even that hating the enemy, I don’t think it’s a part of Christianity either, I find it strange when many people have faith but don’t have compassion.
Why you asked?

Just wanted to affirm that you understand the above bolded.

It seems that you do!

 

[RainbowNight]

Just wanted to affirm that you understand the above bolded.

It seems that you do!

 

[WCH]

Indeed.

This is very Catholic of you to say, WCH!

I’m glad to hear that Catholics have finally come to understand that God is sovereign, and that He is the only being with a free will, and that men are and have neither of those.

BTW, when was this infallible dogma declared?

 

[guanophore]

So, Jesus makes Judas do it to fulfill the prophecy and then punishes him for doing it (“Woe to that man…”)?

I wasn’t aware that Jesus was a Calvinist?

I have had Calvanists tell me that both Jesus and Paul were Calvanistic in their views.

 

[guanophore]

I’m glad to hear that Catholics have finally come to understand that God is sovereign,

Unfortunately there are still many Catholics who have yet to grasp this revelation by God of Himself. They are commonly called “cafeterial catholics”, and they think they are exempt from obedience to God’s commandments, and can pick and choose what they would like to believe and practice according to what suits themselves.

and that He is the only being with a free will, and that men are and have neither of those.

This is the part where Calvin departed from what the Apostles believed and taught. The Apostles taught that every human person is given sufficient grace to repent and believe in the gospel. Our free will is part of being made in the image and likeness of God. The Fall did mar our human nature, but did not eliminate the image of God in us, which has free will.

As far as sovereignty, the dominion that God has given to mankind over the earth, and his own destiny in eternity, exists in, and under, the sovereighnty of God.

BTW, when was this infallible dogma declared?

Dogma is only declared when heresy is rampant. Since the Calvanistic heresy of the TULIP was rampant during the Reformation, infallible dogmas were declared at the Council of Trent to correct them, and prevent the faithful from falling into sin.

 

[PRmerger]

BTW, when was this infallible dogma declared?

Are you under the misapprehension that all Catholic teaching has been “infallibly declared”, WCH?

If so, it would appear that, as I have surmised, your catechesis was quite dismal. (Most likely not your fault; the Church did an abysmal job in the past of feeding her flock with the Truth.)

At any rate, here’s where you can find multiple references to God’s sovereignty:

ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=sovereign&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

And here’s the references to free will:

ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=%22free+will%22&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

 

[NotWorthy]

I’m glad to hear that Catholics have finally come to understand that God is sovereign, and that He is the only being with a free will, and that men are and have neither of those.

BTW, when was this infallible dogma declared?

OK, now I’m confused. For earlier you said:

You learn something everyday.

Actually, Jesus is stating a simple truth regarding God and man: God is absolutely sovereign, and man is responsible for his own actions. That’s clearly stated both in the OT, and the NT.

How can man be responsible for his own actions if he doesn’t have the free will to commit those actions?

 

[followingtheway]

From this can we say that Judas is in hell? Since it Jesus says “doomed to destruction”.

I would have to say yes…In the Bible it says that it would be better for Judas, if he had never been born.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 26:24[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[PRmerger]

BTW, when was this infallible dogma declared?

Incidentally, this question limns quite trenchantly another misapprehension regarding Catholicism.

When one asks “when was this infallible dogma declared” it indicates that she believes that the teaching was only discerned at the moment of said proclamation.

This is ignorance talking.

Let’s look at “when the Trinity was infallibly declared”…was it only believed and professed at the point of this infallible declaration in the 4th century?

Thus, to ask when it was infallibly declared professes another example of abysmal Catholic knowledge.

 

[PRmerger]

I would have to say yes…In the Bible it says that it would be better for Judas, if he had never been born.

Perhaps.

But perhaps it also means that Jesus is lamenting the suffering he knows he will endure and is only expressing his sorrow at this.

Similar to the expression, “I rue the day I met you!” Well, one need not take that literally and believe that I spend every day regretting that moment.

 

[NotWorthy]

Perhaps.

But perhaps it also means that Jesus is lamenting the suffering he knows he will endure and is only expressing his sorrow at this.

Similar to the expression, “I rue the day I met you!” Well, one need not take that literally and believe that I spend every day regretting that moment.

No, its not like that expression at all. It says it would be better for Judas…

That is a dire statement.

 

[PRmerger]

No, its not like that expression at all. It says it would be better for Judas…

That is a dire statement.

Fair enough.

But as a Catholic I am quite free to proclaim my stated POV.

And, as a Catholic you are free to believe that Judas is in hell; however, you cannot proclaim that this is Church teaching.

 

[WCH]

This is the part where Calvin departed from what the Apostles believed and taught. The Apostles taught that every human person is given sufficient grace to repent and believe in the gospel.

Where in scripture do they teach that?

 

[guanophore]

OK, now I’m confused. For earlier you said:

How can man be responsible for his own actions if he doesn’t have the free will to commit those actions?

This is one of the great conundrums of Calvanism.

 

[guanophore]

Where in scripture do they teach that?

The Apostolic Teaching is not confined to Scripture, WCH, and they were teaching this before the NT was written. However, there are references to this teaching in the Scripture.

Acts 17:29-31

29 Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but** now he commands all men everywhere to repent**, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."

Why would the He command those to repent that did not have the ability to do so?

Rom 11:32
2 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

Some men dont’ want His mercy, and don’t receive it.

Luke 7:28-30

28 I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." 29(When they heard this all the people and the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John; 30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)

If God did not intend for the Pharisees to repent and believe in the Gospel (did not give them sufficient grace to repent) then how could they 'reject the purpose of God for themselves" by not believing?

 

[WCH]

Incidentally, this question limns quite trenchantly another misapprehension regarding Catholicism.

When one asks “when was this infallible dogma declared” it indicates that she believes that the teaching was only discerned at the moment of said proclamation.

This is ignorance talking.

Let’s look at “when the Trinity was infallibly declared”…was it only believed and professed at the point of this infallible declaration in the 4th century?

Thus, to ask when it was infallibly declared professes another example of abysmal Catholic knowledge.

Is that the long way of saying there is no dogmatic teaching on the it?

 

[WCH]

The Apostolic Teaching is not confined to Scripture, WCH, and they were teaching this before the NT was written. However, there are references to this teaching in the Scripture.

Acts 17:29-31

29 Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but** now he commands all men everywhere to repent**, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."

Why would the He command those to repent that did not have the ability to do so?

Rom 11:32
2 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

Some men dont’ want His mercy, and don’t receive it.

Luke 7:28-30

28 I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." 29(When they heard this all the people and the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John; 30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)

If God did not intend for the Pharisees to repent and believe in the Gospel (did not give them sufficient grace to repent) then how could they 'reject the purpose of God for themselves" by not believing?

Where in those verses is it stated that God gives all men sufficient grace to repent and believe in the Gospel?

I’m not seeing that stated anywhere in them?

 

[WCH]

How can man be responsible for his own actions if he doesn’t have the free will to commit those actions?

You’re taking my statement that men don’t have a “free” will to mean that men don’t have a will. That’s not what I said.

God is the only being whose will is completely free that I know of. Is there some proof you want to offer that a man’s will is free in the same way God’s will is free?

 

[NotWorthy]

Fair enough.

But as a Catholic I am quite free to proclaim my stated POV.

And, as a Catholic you are free to believe that Judas is in hell; however, you cannot proclaim that this is Church teaching.

I don’t think I have proclaimed it as Church teaching.

I’ve simply stated why I think that Judas went to hell. You are free to believe what you will, because, as you correctly stated, the Church doesn’t have a stance on it.

But this is a debate/opinion forum, hence the debate…

What we know is that:

• God gave us the commandment to not kill, because all life is precious.
• Jesus stated that, because of what he was going to do, it would be better had he not lived.

until someone comes up with a good reason not to think this, I’m stuck with my original opinion.

 

[NotWorthy]

You’re taking my statement that men don’t have a “free” will to mean that men don’t have a will. That’s not what I said.

God is the only being whose will is completely free that I know of. Is there some proof you want to offer that a man’s will is free in the same way God’s will is free?

You’re taking my statement that men have free will to mean that man’s will is free in the same way God’s will is. That’s not what I said.

You said that man is responsible for his action’s.
You said that He (God) is the only being with a free will, and that men are and have neither of those.

Now, does man have the ability to choose his own actions or not? If not, how can he be responsible for those actions?