Is Judas in hell?

[guanophore]

Where in those verses is it stated that God gives all men sufficient grace to repent and believe in the Gospel?

I’m not seeing that stated anywhere in them?

What DO you see stated in them?

It seems like you are looking into the scriptures but only for what you want to see, and are unable to read them apart from your preconceived theology. Because of it, if they say anything that contradicts your perpective, you are blinded to it. It is a form of researcher bias.

You might consider role playing. Just pretend you never were influenced by Calvin, maybe that you lived in 150AD, and read those verses. What can you glean from them?

Do you honestly believe that God commands men to do things He will not enable them to do?

I have heard people refer to Calvin’s God as cruel, I guess that is what they mean?

 

[guanophore]

You’re taking my statement that men don’t have a “free” will to mean that men don’t have a will. That’s not what I said.

God is the only being whose will is completely free that I know of. Is there some proof you want to offer that a man’s will is free in the same way God’s will is free?

Mankind was created with a will in the image and likeness of his Maker. That will was marred by original sin, so is not longer free in the same way that God’s will is free. However, the fact that our will is not free the way God’s is free does not mean we lack the ability to exercise it.

Tell me, WCH, what did it mean that the Pharisees rejected God’s purpose for themselves?

If he predestined them to salvation, how could they reject this? And if He allowed them to die in their sins, then how can refusing to accept the Gospel be rejecting His will?

 

[guanophore]

You’re taking my statement that men have free will to mean that man’s will is free in the same way God’s will is. That’s not what I said.

Creating strawmen is one of her favorite methods to avoid an honest discussion.

Now, does man have the ability to choose his own actions or not? If not, how can he be responsible for those actions?

Calvanists believe that we all deserve to burn in hell. God, in His Mercy, because of His own Glory, saves some. The rest are allowed to take their course.

 

[WCH]

What DO you see stated in them?

It seems like you are looking into the scriptures but only for what you want to see, and are unable to read them apart from your preconceived theology. Because of it, if they say anything that contradicts your perpective, you are blinded to it. It is a form of researcher bias.

You might consider role playing. Just pretend you never were influenced by Calvin, maybe that you lived in 150AD, and read those verses. What can you glean from them?

Do you honestly believe that God commands men to do things He will not enable them to do?

I have heard people refer to Calvin’s God as cruel, I guess that is what they mean?

Guanophore, are you going to answer my question, or just rant about it while tossing about red herrings?

 

[WCH]

Mankind was created with a will in the image and likeness of his Maker. That will was marred by original sin, so is not longer free in the same way that God’s will is free. However, the fact that our will is not free the way God’s is free does not mean we lack the ability to exercise it.

In what way are you free to exercise your will, guanophore? In what way?

 

[WCH]

Tell me, WCH, what did it mean that the Pharisees rejected God’s purpose for themselves?

God’s revealed will is that all men repent (Acts 17:30), guanophore. That doesn’t mean they will repent.

If he predestined them to salvation, how could they reject this? And if He allowed them to die in their sins, then how can refusing to accept the Gospel be rejecting His will?

Let’s deal with what seems to be an assertion by you that God predestined those Pharisees to salvation. What proof do you offer that God predestined them to salvation?

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore, are you going to answer my question, or just rant about it while tossing about red herrings?

You did not ask a question, WCH. You asked for verses that show that God gives everyone the grace to repent. I provided several. You said you could not see that principle “clearly stated” in those verses, so I asked you what you did see.

Clearly you are unable to enter a serious dialogue about the meaning of these passages. your method is shallow and avoidant.

In what way are you free to exercise your will, guanophore? In what way?

In the same way that the Pharisees are able. I can accept God’s purpose for me (repent and believe) or I can reject it.

God’s revealed will is that all men repent (Acts 17:30), guanophore. That doesn’t mean they will repent.

Indeed not. Although God calls all to repent, and provides sufficient grace for them to do so, many will reject His purpose for themselves. He desires that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. But some will not choose life.

Let’s deal with what seems to be an assertion by you that God predestined those Pharisees to salvation. What proof do you offer that God predestined them to salvation?

I never asserted any such thing.

I asserted that God gives the grace to every man to repent, and believe in the Gospel. The Apostles did not equate this with salvation. Calvin equated it with salvation.

 

[WCH]

Now, does man have the ability to choose his own actions or not?

Yes.

 

[WCH]

You did not ask a question, WCH. You asked for verses that show that God gives everyone the grace to repent. I provided several. You said you could not see that principle “clearly stated” in those verses, so I asked you what you did see.

Clearly you are unable to enter a serious dialogue about the meaning of these passages. your method is shallow and avoidant.

Guanophore, are you going to answer my question by explaining how the verses “prove” God gives the grace to repent to everyone, or not?

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore, are you going to answer my question by explaining how the verses “prove” God gives the grace to repent to everyone, or not?

Verses don’t “prove” anything WCH. The Scripture is the revelation by God of Himself to mankind. God’s revelation is as far above our proofs as the heavens are above the earth. Scripture was never intended to be used as “proofs”. This is a reformation misuse of the Scriptures.

However, they do testify to the One Faith that was handed down to us from the Apostles. If you wish to discuss the content of them, I would be delighted to do so. That is why I asked you what you saw in therm.

Deut 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life

Why did God set before the people a choice, and command them to choose, without giving them the ability to do so?

 

[WCH]

Clearly you are unable to enter a serious dialogue about the meaning of these passages. your method is shallow and avoidant.

Guanophore, I’ve asked you repeatedly on this, and other threads to provide support for the many assertions you make. All you do is throw out a verse, and then blow me off when I ask you to explain how that supports your assertion.

Why are so willing to make assertions, and so unwilling to support them?

In the same way that the Pharisees are able. I can accept God’s purpose for me (repent and believe) or I can reject it.

Here you make another assertion that I’ve asked you to support. Do you support it? No. You act as though you were never asked to support it.

Please offer some support for your assertion that God predestined to salvation the Pharisees in Lk 7:30.

 

[WCH]

Verses don’t “prove” anything WCH.

I’ll add this to the growing list of your assertions that you are unable to support.

Goodnight, guanophore.

 

[WCH]

**I never asserted any such thing.

**I asserted that God gives the grace to every man to repent, and believe in the Gospel. The Apostles did not equate this with salvation. Calvin equated it with salvation.

You certainly did assert that God predestined them to salvation, guanophore, in post #62.

Here are your exact words:

**Tell me, WCH, what did it mean that the Pharisees rejected God’s purpose for themselves?

If he predestined them to salvation, how could they reject this? ** Those are your words, guanophore.

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore, I’ve asked you repeatedly on this, and other threads to provide support for the many assertions you make. All you do is throw out a verse, and then blow me off when I ask you to explain how that supports your assertion.

Why are so willing to make assertions, and so unwilling to support them?

Here you make another assertion that I’ve asked you to support. Do you support it? No. You act as though you were never asked to support it.

In fact, this is exactly the case. Here is what you said:

Where in those verses is it stated that God gives all men sufficient grace to repent and believe in the Gospel?

I’m not seeing that stated anywhere in them?

So, what you seem to be wanting is a statement that says “God gives all men the grace to repent”. Since what you are looking for is not in the verses, that pretty much ends the discussion, does it not? How I see that the verses support my assertion is immaterial, because you have created a strawman. I will concede to your strawman. The verses don’t state that God gives the grace to everyone to repent.

You asked for verses to support my assertion, I provided them, then you changed what you wanted. That is why I say your reasoning is emotional and shallow. Capricious might be a better word.

If you wish to discuss the verses, we can, but it will not be productive if you want something from them that is not there. The verses support my assertion. They do not support your strawman.

Please offer some support for your assertion that God predestined to salvation the Pharisees in Lk 7:30.

I addressed this in post 67. I never made any such assertion.

I’ll add this to the growing list of your assertions that you are unable to support.

Goodnight, guanophore.

That must be quite a collection, WCH!

What I have refused to do is defend the strawmen that you throw out.

Maybe it is a hobby. A person tries to enter a dialogue with you about a matter of faith, you substitute an assertion of yours they did not make, demand that they prove the strawman, then when they decline, you add the strawman to your “list”. It must be some form of mental mastubation?

The other growing list is the number of people you put on “ignore” if they call you to account for this charade?

 

[guanophore]

You certainly did assert that God predestined them to salvation, guanophore, in post #62.

Here are your exact words:

**Tell me, WCH, what did it mean that the Pharisees rejected God’s purpose for themselves?

If he predestined them to salvation**, how could they reject this? Those are your words, guanophore.

This is not an assertion, WCH, it is a question. Catholics don’t believe that salvation is completed at the moment of repentance.

John’s baptism, which is referred to in the passage, is a baptism of repentance. What I AM asserting is that God desires for all men everywhere to repent. The Pharisees rejected God’s purpose for themselves.

It is no wonder that you are unable to enter into a meaningful discussion. You cant even tell the difference between an assertion,a nd a question?!

I guess that is not much diffferent than the inability to tell the difference between a pickle and a cucumber.

 

[NotWorthy]

  			Originally Posted by **NotWorthy** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7948241#post7948241) 				
  		*Now, does man have the ability to choose his own actions or not?*

Yes.

Now, I call that “Free Will”

 

[guanophore]

NotWorthy:
Now, I call that “Free Will”

Yes, but Calvin says that we are totally depraved, and are unable to make any choice or take any action toward God because we are in the flesh, and unable to please God. The only actions we can choose, then, are those that are against God.

Jesus taught that the one who sins is a slave to sin, so our wills are not “free” because we are enslaved by sin, and can only choose according to the flesh.

So Calvin says that we are responsible for our actions and choices, but unless we are regenerated, we can only exercise our “will” to choose perdition. Those who He chooses not to deliver will “choose” their way into hell.

 

[PRmerger]

Is that the long way of saying there is no dogmatic teaching on the it?

I gave you the doctrinal teachings here already, WCH.

Now you explain to me what your understanding of dogma vs doctrine is (as you understand from your catechesis as a Catholic) and then you will be able to extrapolate the answer to your own question.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t think I have proclaimed it as Church teaching.

'Tis true, this. And I don’t believe I* claimed* that you did, only that you wouldn’t be able to, or ought not to.

I’ve simply stated why I think that Judas went to hell. You are free to believe what you will, because, as you correctly stated, the Church doesn’t have a stance on it.

Then we are agreed.

 

[guanophore]

I gave you the doctrinal teachings here already, WCH.

Thanks PR. Hopefully the rest of us will use them. WCH does not appear to be here to get Catholic Answers. (Can we here a troll?).

Now you explain to me what your understanding of dogma vs doctrine is (as you understand from your catechesis as a Catholic) and then you will be able to extrapolate the answer to your own question.

Do you think WCH got any catechesis? The posts reveal a very immature level of theological reasoning and interpersonal skills. Maybe more than catechesis is frozen in childhood?