Is Judas one of the original Twelve Apostles, as they are understood in the prophecies of the Lord and in Apocalypse?

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MarcoPG

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Hello,

My question comes from the fact that the first list ofthe Twelve that we see is:

Simon Peter
Andrew
James Z.
John
Philip
Bartholomew
Thomas
Matthew
James A.
Jude
Simon
Judas T.
Judas I.

But since Judas Iscariot died, he was replaced by Matthias (who was “numbered with the Eleven”). So what is to be understood as the original 12 Apostles? With or Without Judas?
The question becomes a bit trickier when I think of the prophecies of Jesus concerning the great power given to the Twelve, notonly asChurch leaders, but also in the day of Judgement. I can’t see why or how Judas would be sitting on any throne of any tribe ofIsrael as you read in the Gospel and Revelation. That is why I would say it is Matthias which will sit with the other Apostles.

What do you think?
 
MarcoPG said:
My question comes from the fact that the first list of the Twelve that we see is:

Simon Peter
Andrew
James Z.
John
Philip
Bartholomew
Thomas
Matthew
James A.
Jude
Simon
Judas T.
Judas I.
Click to expand...
Where did you get that list? It does not appear correct. The first list we see is in Matthew 10 and it does not match your list.

You have thirteen names listed. It looks like you have St. Jude listed twice; as both Jude and Judas T. Those are the same person.

He is Thaddaeus in Matthew 10:3
He is Thaddaeus in Mark 3:18.
He is Judas the son of James in Luke 6:10

John does not have a formal list of all the Apostles. John doesn’t even use the word Apostle but refers to them as “the twelve” and identifies one of them as Judas (not iscariot).

Jude, Judas, Thaddaeus, Judas Thaddaeus… they are all the same person. We know him as St. Jude, the patron of hopeless cases and desperate situations.

I have used the RSV for this post, if it matters.

-Tim-
 
By the way, he is Jude, the son of James in Luke 10 in the Douay-Rheims.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
Where did you get that list? It does not appear correct. The first list we see is in Matthew 10 and it does not match your list.

You have thirteen names listed. It looks like you have St. Jude listed twice; as both Jude and Judas T. Those are the same person.

He is Thaddaeus in Matthew 10:3
He is Thaddaeus in Mark 3:18.
He is Judas the son of James in Luke 6:10

John does not have a formal list of all the Apostles. John doesn’t even use the word Apostle but refers to them as “the twelve” and identifies one of them as Judas (not iscariot).

Jude, Judas, Thaddaeus, Judas Thaddaeus… they are all the same person. We know him as St. Jude, the patron of hopeless cases and desperate situations.

I have used the RSV for this post, if it matters.

-Tim-
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Hello Tim, I must say I didn’t check the list, since I thought they would get it right :o
But the problem on Judas is the same.
So yes, to be fair, let’s find a proper list, quoting directly from the Gospels
Matthew 10 NRSVCE
2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon, also known as Peter, and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;** 4 Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed him.

Well yes, Jude Thaddeus and Judas Thaddeus…I don’t know if they read their paper…I shouls have 😃

But anyway, the problem with the original Twelve remains. Do you think that Judas will sit on the throne, as prophecised by Jesus, and Judas was still alive, or is it Matthias?**
 
The prophecy in the OP is likely Matthew 19, no?

Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28)

The twelve Apostles are called elders many times in the Bible and we have to keep in mind that the book of Revelation mentions twenty four, not twelve.

And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, (Revelation 11:16)

So the larger question is, who are the other twelve? Are they Gentile judges of the rest of the nations?

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
*…*So the larger question is, who are the other twelve? Are they Gentile judges of the rest of the nations?

-Tim-
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I don’t have a source for this, but have always assumed that they are the twelve patriarchs of the Old Testament [the Twelve sons of Israel].
 
TimothyH said:
The prophecy in the OP is likely Matthew 19, no?

Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28)

The twelve Apostles are called elders many times in the Bible and we have to keep in mind that the book of Revelation mentions twenty four, not twelve.

And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, (Revelation 11:16)

So the larger question is, who are the other twelve? Are they Gentile judges of the rest of the nations
-Tim-
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Yes, it would be this prophecy.
It is the larger question indeed, but not mine 🙂 I just would like to know if sitting there is the betrayer or Matthias.
As for your question, I found that it would be the Apostles, pluis 12 other from the Church, so to show the beginning and the end, or the 24 courses of priests in Chroniles,or again 24 divisions of singers.

This however doesn’t tell us, whether Judas is one of them or not.
 
MarcoPG said:
Yes, it would be this prophecy.
It is the larger question indeed, but not mine 🙂 I just would like to know if sitting there is the betrayer or Matthias.
As for your question, I found that it would be the Apostles, pluis 12 other from the Church, so to show the beginning and the end, or the 24 courses of priests in Chroniles,or again 24 divisions of singers.

This however doesn’t tell us, whether Judas is one of them or not.
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I don’t know the answer.

-Tim-
 
MarcoPG said:
Hello,

. I can’t see why or how Judas would be sitting on any throne of any tribe ofIsrael as you read in the Gospel and Revelation. That is why I would say it is Matthias which will sit with the other Apostles.

What do you think?
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It doesn’t matter what we think (or what we can see). If you have a Bible you can go to Matthew 10. The list of The Twelve is given in verses 2-5

Matthew 10:2-5
2 And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother,
3 James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus,
4 Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not.
 
MarcoPG said:
Hello,

My question comes from the fact that the first list ofthe Twelve that we see is:

Simon Peter
Andrew
James Z.
John
Philip
Bartholomew
Thomas
Matthew
James A.
Jude
Simon
Judas T.
Judas I.

But since Judas Iscariot died, he was replaced by Matthias (who was “numbered with the Eleven”). So what is to be understood as the original 12 Apostles? With or Without Judas?
The question becomes a bit trickier when I think of the prophecies of Jesus concerning the great power given to the Twelve, notonly asChurch leaders, but also in the day of Judgement. I can’t see why or how Judas would be sitting on any throne of any tribe ofIsrael as you read in the Gospel and Revelation. That is why I would say it is Matthias which will sit with the other Apostles.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
I think that Judas Iscariot was one of the original 12.
 
Ignatius said:
It doesn’t matter what we think (or what we can see). If you have a Bible you can go to Matthew 10. The list of The Twelve is given in verses 2-5

Matthew 10:2-5
2 And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother,
3 James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus,
4 Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not.
Click to expand...
THank you, but this doesn’t answer the question. Will Judas be among the Twelve on Judgement Day, as prophecised, or will it be Matthias?
 
On page 186 of Crossing the Threshold of Hope St John Paul II comments that the Church is silent on whether anyone is in Hell. However, he notes Jesus words re Judas -** “It would be better for that man if he had never been born**.”.

It is difficult to reconcile this with the suggestion that he is one of the judges in Revelation.
 
MarcoPG said:
THank you, but this doesn’t answer the question. Will Judas be among the Twelve on Judgement Day, as prophecised, or will it be Matthias?
Click to expand...
We can’t know what will happen with Judas, only God knows that.
 
Ignatius said:
We can’t know what will happen with Judas, only God knows that.
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Sure, but do you have an opinion? I asked “What do you think?” not “What is the church teaching?” nor “Do you know for sure?”

As the first person who posted after me said: “I agree, because he gave up his rights”. That is not to say it is so, but it is based on other elements that we know about him and for instance Acts.

To be clear, I wasn’t asking about his salvation, but whether it is fair to think of him as on of the Twelve sitting on the thrones on Judgement, since jesus said so while he was still alive.
Sure he was one of the Twelve who were first chosen, but his deeds afterwards seem to disqualify him. Then Matthias replaced him. So I was looking for opinions about the identity of the 12th Apostle since Judas was the first one, but Matthias didn’t betray the Lord.

So it may be that the Twelve, temporall,y were with Judas,sure, but later they were intended as the Twelve after Pentecost, as Jesus knew Judas would betray Him, and He was talking about them already putting Judas aside.

Looking for answers, I found this other thread on the very same question, just to old to reactivate 😃 Maybe it will help understanding my point.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=30991

I’ve also found this commentary here biblehub.com/matthew/19-28.htm

Pulpit Commentary

…] *Twelve thrones. Judas forfeited his position; Matthias and Paul and Barnabas were afterwards added to the apostolic band; so that the number twelve must not be pressed as defining and limiting. Rather it expresses the completeness of the judicial body, regarding not so much the persons as the position of its members. *…]
 
MarcoPG said:
Sure, but do you have an opinion? I asked “What do you think?” not “What is the church teaching?” nor “Do you know for sure?”

As the first person who posted after me said: “I agree, because he gave up his rights”. That is not to say it is so, but it is based on other elements that we know about him and for instance Acts.

To be clear, I wasn’t asking about his salvation, but whether it is fair to think of him as on of the Twelve sitting on the thrones on Judgement, since jesus said so while he was still alive.
Sure he was one of the Twelve who were first chosen, but his deeds afterwards seem to disqualify him. Then Matthias replaced him. So I was looking for opinions about the identity of the 12th Apostle since Judas was the first one, but Matthias didn’t betray the Lord.

So it may be that the Twelve, temporall,y were with Judas,sure, but later they were intended as the Twelve after Pentecost, as Jesus knew Judas would betray Him, and He was talking about them already putting Judas aside.

Looking for answers, I found this other thread on the very same question, just to old to reactivate 😃 Maybe it will help understanding my point.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=30991

I’ve also found this commentary here biblehub.com/matthew/19-28.htm

Pulpit Commentary

…] Twelve thrones. Judas forfeited his position; Matthias and Paul and Barnabas were afterwards added to the apostolic band; so that the number twelve must not be pressed as defining and limiting. Rather it expresses the completeness of the judicial body, regarding not so much the persons as the position of its members. …]
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I don’t think Jesus meant for the devil to sit and judge the 12 tribes.

“Did I not choose you, the Twelve, and one of you is a devil” John 6:70

If you looked at Mat 19:28 “you who have followed me…”
and Luke 22:28 "You are those who have continued with me in my trials… " indicates that person must meet both qualifications. Judas would have failed Luke 22:28 as he did not continued with Jesus in his trials.

Mattheus would have met both criteria if you look at the selection criteria in Acts 1:21-22. My vote goes to Matthias.
 
MarcoPG said:
Will he be sitting on the throne, judging the tribes of Israel in your opinion, because he was of the Twelve?
Click to expand...
I would think it would be Matthias as he was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot.
 
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