Is Latin an impediment to comprehending the Mass?

[twiztedseraph]

I remember my first time at a Latin mass…having memorised the responses from the Novus in Latin I could understand it perfectly. I tried reading the translation of the prayers in english but found it very difficult (sitting back and listening some how felt more like prayer), honestly when you’re at Mass some things are beyond an understanding at a intellectual level, its best to just let it engulf you.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I don’t think they expect foreign languages when walking into a church.

With respect, Lily, since the change to the ‘vernacular’, this is exactly what people are getting.

Even in the U.S. I may be an English speaker, go into “St. Barnabas” and find myself at a Spanish Mass. Many Spanish speakers may go into “San Juan” and yet find themselves at an English Mass. And don’t forget “St. Peter” (which may be Polish speaking), “St. Bernadette” (for the Francophones), “St. Jude” which is all Vietnamese, “Assumption” which is all Italian. . .

I think you get the point.

Now I’m old enough to remember when you could walk into any of the above and what you got was Latin. . .which was the ‘universal’ language. You probably aren’t; you probably only remember English and cannot imagine anything else. I and others older, OTOH, were once in exactly your position–we had a ‘language’ and could not imagine anything else–and lo and behold, overnight everything ‘changed’.

And lest you say, “well, but they were changing to a language people could UNDERSTAND”. . .with respect, as I noted above, not everybody in a given congregation did understand the ‘vernacular’, as congregation A may have used English and many of the congregation may have been immigrants for whom English was a second language and not well known, whereas the Latin (with its many cognates) was far better understood by all.

 

[LilyM]

With respect, Lily, since the change to the ‘vernacular’, this is exactly what people are getting.

Even in the U.S. I may be an English speaker, go into “St. Barnabas” and find myself at a Spanish Mass. Many Spanish speakers may go into “San Juan” and yet find themselves at an English Mass. And don’t forget “St. Peter” (which may be Polish speaking), “St. Bernadette” (for the Francophones), “St. Jude” which is all Vietnamese, “Assumption” which is all Italian. . .

I think you get the point.

Now I’m old enough to remember when you could walk into any of the above and what you got was Latin. . .which was the ‘universal’ language. You probably aren’t; you probably only remember English and cannot imagine anything else. I and others older, OTOH, were once in exactly your position–we had a ‘language’ and could not imagine anything else–and lo and behold, overnight everything ‘changed’.

And lest you say, “well, but they were changing to a language people could UNDERSTAND”. . .with respect, as I noted above, not everybody in a given congregation did understand the ‘vernacular’, as congregation A may have used English and many of the congregation may have been immigrants for whom English was a second language and not well known, whereas the Latin (with its many cognates) was far better understood by all.

With respect, Tantum, I live in a country that’s every bit as much a melting pot as the good old US, with large communities from over 180 of the world’s countries.

I grew up in a predominantly Italian and Croatian-Australian area and then moved - first to a predominantly Vietnamese-Australian area and now to Chinatown. I do not speak Italian, Croatian, Vietnamese or any dialect of Chinese by the way.

In none of these areas have I had the slightest problem finding Mass and confession in English. I’ve only come across ONE church in my entire thirty-three years of life that had no English Mass of a Sunday - and even there the priests still knew enough English to get by in the confessional at a pinch.

Yes you may be right - English is a distant second language for some, and some for whom English is the first language may have to resort to masses in another language. Latin, however, is a very distant second language for EVERYONE, a vernacular for NO-ONE. Certainly few if any people at the best of times could even hope understand a homily or confession delivered entirely in Latin. Obviously it IS necessary, in this day and age, to resort to A vernacular on occasion!

So you’re basically wanting to go to the lowest common level where everyone is equally INconvenienced.

 

[puzzleannie]

yes, for those who don’t know Latin, just as attending the Spanish Mass is a barrier for me because my Spanish is not so good. True, I can follow along in a missalette, but since the Mass including readings are meant to be prayed aloud and proclaimed, I am missing something. So is a deaf person who has not the advantage of a sign interpreter at Mass.

Recall that one of the major reasons for the bishops mandating a nationwide systems of parochial schools, besides transmission of the faith, was that children would learn Latin and be better able to assist at Mass. Latin was at one time, along with Greek, the foundation of liberal education and taught universally in schools public or private well into the last century. That its teaching has waned is an indictment of our ever-disintegrating education system, by the way.

Those who advocate returning Latin to its former position, which in the letter of the law was never abrogated, had better as well promote teaching Latin, although how we are to do that in CCD is beyond my comprehension.

 

[BobP123]

Latin was okay for the first 1900 years because latin was often required learning in schools. This is no longer the case and if someone were seeking out answers about life and God and the church, walking in to a Latin mass could be pretty intimidating.

So is this the fault of the TLM itself or those who tried to suppress it? Seems to me that the Latin Mass should be the answer to a whole lot of questions about life and God and the Church.

 

[ncjohn]

Having grown up with the TLM in my early years, I don’t find the Latin an impediment to *comprehending *the Mass, though some certainly would, at least at first.

I do however find it a tremendous impediment in being able to fully participate in the liturgy and to keep my mind focused on why I am there. Having to read along and translate rather than just listening and responding/singing along for me would be a major impediment and would take much of the joy of the Mass out.

That being said, I know that for many it is exactly the opposite, which is why I’ve favored releasing the TLM so that those who favor that experience can do so. It is discouraging though that it seems that so many who do favor the TLM are very opposed to my being able to experience Mass in the way most meaningful to me.

Peace,

 

[mary_bobo]

Having grown up with the TLM in my early years, I don’t find the Latin an impediment to *comprehending *the Mass, though some certainly would, at least at first.

I do however find it a tremendous impediment in being able to fully participate in the liturgy and to keep my mind focused on why I am there. Having to read along and translate rather than just listening and responding/singing along for me would be a major impediment and would take much of the joy of the Mass out.

That being said, I know that for many it is exactly the opposite, which is why I’ve favored releasing the TLM so that those who favor that experience can do so. It is discouraging though that it seems that so many who do favor the TLM are very opposed to my being able to experience Mass in the way most meaningful to me.
I
Peace,

I think each of us should be able to experience and participate the Mass in the way that is most meaningful to us. While I love the NO, I prefer the TLM. I wish that each parish could have one TLM on Sunday and the rest NO. That should accommodate everyone.

 

[lucybeebee]

It seems like the majority of world religions involve a liturgical language (e.g., classical Arabic in Islam, biblical Hebrew in Judaism, sanskrit in Theravada Buddhism, etc.) Islam is spreading like wildfire, despite the fact that converts have to learn an archaic form of Arabic to read the Koran (translated versions are not considered authorative). When viewed like this, the Protestant penchant for the use of the venacular is really an anomoly.

 

[ncjohn]

It seems like the majority of world religions involve a liturgical language (e.g., classical Arabic in Islam, biblical Hebrew in Judaism, sanskrit in Theravada Buddhism, etc.) Islam is spreading like wildfire, despite the fact that converts have to learn an archaic form of Arabic to read the Koran (translated versions are not considered authorative). When viewed like this, the Protestant penchant for the use of the venacular is really an anomoly.

I don’t know that I’d consider that a “Protestant penchant”.

The only reason we had it in Latin to begin with was because of the people in the Western Church wanting the liturgy to be in the vernacular of the time, which at that time (3rd-4th centuries) was Latin rather than the Greek that had been the prevalent vernacular liturgical language.

 

[Brendan]

I’ve attended NO masses in Portuguese, German, even Chinese. Never had a problem figuring out which part of the Mass we were up to - not even which prayer. When it came to the common prayers and responses I’d say 'em in English quietly to myself.

Now I have been to Latin NO Masses in France, Holland, Germany and Korea.

So I too could follow along on where we were at in the Liturgy. But unlike you, I could say all the common prayers out loud and in the same language as my fellow Catholics.

As the Holy Father mentioned in his latest Exhortion, the world is becoming more global, and when Masses are conducted in multi-lingual situations, they should in Latin.

 

[mgrobertson79]

I have never been to a TLM where the sermon(Homily) was in Latin, only English. This isn’t even an issue. I have the Lingua Latina set that I posted the link for earlier in front of me. The reader is relatively easy to understand for even me. I didn’t go past high school and only had English there. I love the beauty of the Latin language. The English language doesn’t seem to have the same effect, even though half of the English words are derived from Latin. You must try it before casting judgment. As for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, NO ONE has the right to pass judgment.

 

[Holly3278]

Yes, I feel that Latin is an impediment to comprehending the traditional Latin Mass.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Personally, I feel that ‘f**ear’ **is an impediment to comprehending any Mass.

Some ‘fear’ the use of Latin as they are ‘comfortable’ in their vernacular Mass. Well, no one has yet said that the vernacular Mass is going to disappear, so I think this ‘fear’ is pretty groundless. If you wish to attend a Mass in the vernacular, do so. You are not obligated to attend a Latin Mass.

Some ‘fear’ the use of Latin even for those who willingly attend a Latin Mass, as they believe it would be anything from “too hard” to comprehend to “too distracting”. (Of course, one can bring up Father A who continually tweaks the ‘vernacular’ liturgy to the distraction point for HIS parishioners but. . .) Again, this fear is pretty groundless. Nobody is forcing a person to attend a Latin Mass. If a person does choose to go and finds that he/she is indeed unable to participate ‘fully’ for whatever reason, then back to the ‘vernacular’ (and hope one doesn’t get Father A. . .) and all will be well as St. Julian puts it.

There. That’s it. Go if you choose, participate as you desire. No need to ‘fear’ anymore. No one is attempting to drag you away from the Mass you have grown up with, and participate in fully, and substitute a Mass you do not know and feel you will not understand.

Not this time, anyway.

 

[Walking_Home]

Personally, I feel that ‘f**ear’ **is an impediment to comprehending any Mass.

Some ‘fear’ the use of Latin as they are ‘comfortable’ in their vernacular Mass. Well, no one has yet said that the vernacular Mass is going to disappear, so I think this ‘fear’ is pretty groundless. If you wish to attend a Mass in the vernacular, do so. You are not obligated to attend a Latin Mass.

Some ‘fear’ the use of Latin even for those who willingly attend a Latin Mass, as they believe it would be anything from “too hard” to comprehend to “too distracting”. (Of course, one can bring up Father A who continually tweaks the ‘vernacular’ liturgy to the distraction point for HIS parishioners but. . .) Again, this fear is pretty groundless. Nobody is forcing a person to attend a Latin Mass. If a person does choose to go and finds that he/she is indeed unable to participate ‘fully’ for whatever reason, then back to the ‘vernacular’ (and hope one doesn’t get Father A. . .) and all will be well as St. Julian puts it.

There. That’s it. Go if you choose, participate as you desire. No need to ‘fear’ anymore. No one is attempting to drag you away from the Mass you have grown up with, and participate in fully, and substitute a Mass you do not know and feel you will not understand.

Not this time, anyway.

---

Well said.

 

[rmd13]

Having been to Masses in Italian and Latin, not speaking or understanding either language, I appreciate that I understand what is going on as we are a universal church. However, I don’t understand what is being said. I have followed along at Latin Masses with a missal and while that helps, I’m too busy reading to feel reverent. I do not want Latin Masses to stop; not by any means; I truly enjoy the beauty of a Latin Mass. I am saddened that I am part of the first generations to stop learning this important and worthy language.

The Mass is the most important part of my life, and however it happens to come to me is a miracle, isn’t it? No way is better, is it, if we can partake in the Eucharist? I would be more upset if I lived somewhere where I had no choice. Our Faith seems to be easier to respect with love and grace when you are persecuted and not allowed to practice it.

Just my thoughts….I don’t share them very often!

 

[NMJenny]

Is there any concern here for those who may walk into a Catholic Church with a Latin mass who are curious about the faith and then may become discouraged because they have no idea what is going on?

Latin was okay for the first 1900 years because latin was often required learning in schools. This is no longer the case and if someone were seeking out answers about life and God and the church, walking in to a Latin mass could be pretty intimidating.

It’s all well and good for we who already know what happens in a mass, but we are not the only consideration here.

just some thoughts…

When I was about 13, some friends and I went to the local Catholic church, mostly out of curiosity. This was a long time ago, and the Mass was in Latin–I didn’t understand a thing about what was going on, but something reached down and touched me that morning, and I knew that someday I would have to be a Catholic.

Unfortunately the bishop of my diocese refuses to allow the Latin Mass, it’s a 300 mile round trip to the nearest place where it is offered, and I don’t drive any more…

 

[mgrobertson79]

Unfortunately the bishop of my diocese refuses to allow the Latin Mass, it’s a 300 mile round trip to the nearest place where it is offered, and I don’t drive any more…

There are some who drive over 200 miles one way. If you wish to attend a traditional Mass, I am sure someone would be willing to give you a ride. Do you live in the US or elsewhere?

I must say that I share about the same story. Though my contact with the Latin Mass was at an SSPX chapel, I knew then I had no other choice. I have not been back to that chapel, but did enter the Church in 2005. I have been to St. Francis DeSales Oratory in St. Louis on a couple of occasions and absolutely loved it. Not only was the Mass beautiful, but the parishoners there were even more charitable that at the parish I attend here at home. I never once felt out of place uncomfortable and always felt the presence of God Almighty. I am not saying there is a difference, but in a way there is. It is hard to explain, but my devotion to our Blessed Lord and his Mother has grown tremendously since I started praying the Mass and the devotions of the Saints. I just hope those who haven’t experienced it get the opportunity. It isn’t nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

Vive Christus Rex!

Pax et Bonum,

Matt

 

[Brendan]

Having been to Masses in Italian and Latin, not speaking or understanding either language, I appreciate that I understand what is going on as we are a universal church. However, I don’t understand what is being said. I have followed along at Latin Masses with a missal and while that helps, I’m too busy reading to feel reverent. I do not want Latin Masses to stop; not by any means; I truly enjoy the beauty of a Latin Mass. I am saddened that I am part of the first generations to stop learning this important and worthy language.!

The correct thing to do is what the Council of Vatican II taught. That you should learn the proper responses in Latin (SC 54)

That way, you won’t have to worry about trying to follow along with a missal, you would be able to recite the responses when they are said.

It’s not hard, my 8 year old son has them down, and my 7 year old daughter almost has them.

 

[rlg94086]

From the research I’ve been doing on the history of liturgical reform, even a Missal printed with the vernacular translation is not necessary and perhaps even improper. I think they are great for instruction so people can learn what the prayers mean and what is going on in the Mass, but I would think they are a distraction during Mass.

I’m sure that some who have much more experience with the TLM will correct me if I’m wrong.

Regarding the question in the OP, I think the answer is ‘no.’ I will find out soon.

It is probably more of an impediment to understanding a Pauline Mass in Latin, since it is a participatory “dialogue” Mass. Someone, “walking in off the street” would not know how to respond in Latin. I do agree with one of the other posters, that learning the Latin used in the Pauline Mass should help in understanding the TLM.

 

[DWPC]

Just to clarify…

I went through Catholic parochial school and HS. In my experience in the pre-N.O. days, there was never any expectation that one had to understand or follow the Latin text word-for-word when attending Mass. Even servers (altar boys) were quizzed by the nuns only on our ability to correctly memorize the Latin responses; knowing their exact English translation was unimportant (to being an altar boy). What was important was understanding the deeper meaning of the Mass and its elements, the actions of the priest, and the symbolism.