P
Pork_Roll
Guest
Let’s see, is Latin on money?–check. Is it written on my diploma?–check. Is it the official language of the vatican?-check… etc.
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J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
None of this is grounded in logic, reason, scripture, or Tradition. It may be the language of the Holy See, but that doesn’t make it superior. It only means that the Holy See finds it to be of use.
P
Pork_Roll
Guest
Whatever… If the Holy See uses it, it’s superior by definition. It’s certainly better than Germanic or Slavic languages.
T
Tsuwano
Guest
It isn’t the language used in the mass which brings the universal Catholic community together during the liturgy. It is the sacrifice which takes place on the altar and our sharing in the Lord’s passion, death and resurrection in the sharing of his body and blood when we receive the eucharist. This takes place whether the mass is said in English, Latin, or Chinese.
T
Tsuwano
Guest
This is nonsense. The Holy See uses the Swiss Guard, but this does not automatically make it a superior unit of defense when compared with other military forces around the world. Candles were used by the Holy See before electricity, but they were obviously not a superior form of lighting. Just because something is used by the Holy See, even language, doesn’t make it superior by definition.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
It’s stuff like this that continues to seriously discredit “traditionalists.” The Faith is never divorced from reason. This supercilious visceralism does far more harm than good.
P
Padraig1972
Guest
Latin is as universal as the church is. It is a great language. Today, Latin is not as superior as it once was.
So it is important to keep it alive and going.
So it is important to keep it alive and going.
K
kildare
Guest
I think its important to remember the importance of the old Roman Empire in the incubation and later flowering of Christian civilization. Because of it - and I do believe the dominance of pagan Rome was part of the Lord’s plan - Paul was able to travel around most of the known world preaching the Gospel. People in disparate and far away places London, Cologne, Alexandria and Syria speaking the same language, were connected by language as well as empire. That is the story of teh early chruch. Basically with no Roman Empire, the Chruich would not have been able to grow.
I think the Christian Empire (Rome in its christian form from a bout the 4th century) did, in its better moments, attempt to pave the way for Christs Kingdom to come on earth. It was obviously of practical importance that the people all spoke the same language. When the western empire fell, it not only initiated the near collapse of civilisation, but it also dealt a body blow to Christian confidence - at least among the non-sainted. Christianity survived though, and so maintained the langauge, as a sort of a prepartion step for that Kingdom to come. Gradually with time the motivation for that ideal wore itself out, and was finally dismissed in Vatican II.
Now I think its a pity that Europe has turned its back, not only on Christianity, but also on its Latin heritage. If Europe ever wanted to find common cause to unite its interests, then surely it has to be built on more than mere economic interests. And we can see how the Euro currency is on the verge of collapse, due to the short sighted national interests coming to play. Mediveal Europe up to the reformation, with its Latin language and Christian Catholic religion, would be far easier welded together than modern europe. The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson always said that if they wanted to get europeans together they should get all the children in europe to learn Virgil’s Aeniad. There is a common culture in Europe but you have to go back more than a 1000 years. The European leaders have forgotten the esential spices that will make the european brew have its taste. Christianity and Latin.
Keep Latin . in the church and in the schools.
I think the Christian Empire (Rome in its christian form from a bout the 4th century) did, in its better moments, attempt to pave the way for Christs Kingdom to come on earth. It was obviously of practical importance that the people all spoke the same language. When the western empire fell, it not only initiated the near collapse of civilisation, but it also dealt a body blow to Christian confidence - at least among the non-sainted. Christianity survived though, and so maintained the langauge, as a sort of a prepartion step for that Kingdom to come. Gradually with time the motivation for that ideal wore itself out, and was finally dismissed in Vatican II.
Now I think its a pity that Europe has turned its back, not only on Christianity, but also on its Latin heritage. If Europe ever wanted to find common cause to unite its interests, then surely it has to be built on more than mere economic interests. And we can see how the Euro currency is on the verge of collapse, due to the short sighted national interests coming to play. Mediveal Europe up to the reformation, with its Latin language and Christian Catholic religion, would be far easier welded together than modern europe. The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson always said that if they wanted to get europeans together they should get all the children in europe to learn Virgil’s Aeniad. There is a common culture in Europe but you have to go back more than a 1000 years. The European leaders have forgotten the esential spices that will make the european brew have its taste. Christianity and Latin.
Keep Latin . in the church and in the schools.
I
InquisitorMax
Guest
Well, it’d be funny if this was happening to some Protestant or Indian sect.
After hundreds of years they decide to rewrite their rites and drop a simple, universal language set aside for religious purposes. This means a lot of hymns and prayers are also dropped. The idea is to make it easier to get more participation from the audience.
40 years later and attendances and vocations to their clergy are way down. The rites have local and personal variations cropping up which are at odds with their theology. Because it’s all made easier and friendly, the followers are getting more casual about their participation; it’s seen as not urgent. If it can change to drastically, how important is it? How bad was the old way, that it needed such a change?
So, the main text is re-translated again for greater fidelity to the old text and a shift back to the old rite occurs.
Will it take? Will the liberalisation continue, in the teeth of all the evidence that it does not work?
Check back here in another 20 years!
After hundreds of years they decide to rewrite their rites and drop a simple, universal language set aside for religious purposes. This means a lot of hymns and prayers are also dropped. The idea is to make it easier to get more participation from the audience.
40 years later and attendances and vocations to their clergy are way down. The rites have local and personal variations cropping up which are at odds with their theology. Because it’s all made easier and friendly, the followers are getting more casual about their participation; it’s seen as not urgent. If it can change to drastically, how important is it? How bad was the old way, that it needed such a change?
So, the main text is re-translated again for greater fidelity to the old text and a shift back to the old rite occurs.
Will it take? Will the liberalisation continue, in the teeth of all the evidence that it does not work?
Check back here in another 20 years!
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
There is no evidence that it doesn’t work, merely the assertions of “traditionalists” that it doesn’t work. And, of course, it isn’t “liberalization” in the sense of “being a liberal,” but rather being “open-handed.”
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Right. So I want to find out now what toothpaste brand Pope Benedict uses. Its superior by definition, better against cavity and tartar buildup
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
And get a cat. The Holy Father’s fondness for them makes them by far the superior pet.Right. So I want to find out now what toothpaste brand Pope Benedict uses. Its superior by definition, better against cavity and tartar buildup
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Can I retroactively claim this? I adopted Harold Angel (think about it) for Christmas. Now I can claim he’s Papally preferred.
And of course he is “CAT-holic”.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
I should think so. I’ve a friend who has a cat named Maggie, short for (wait for it)…Magnifi-CAT.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
You’re preaching to the choir here, I’m a cat lover since birth
(thus the avatar)
I
InquisitorMax
Guest
adoremus.org/VeterumSapientia.html
Seems like Pope John XXIII thought Latin was very important.
Re: Liberalism. I’ve read that bishops who preach traditional Catholic doctrine have no shortage of vocations, whereas those who allow liberalism in their diocese, don’t. I’ve seen this in dioceses known to me. Only one vocation a year (if they’re lucky).
If you want people to take your rites seriously, take them seriously yourself. Don’t jazz them up and water them down. Preach the hard truths of our religion. Don’t tell everyone “Jesus loves you”, with the implication he’s really easy going and then wonder why people don’t go to confession any more.
Want to revoke religious awe? Don’t drop a mysterious language and then, because you have to find new hymns, use really banal ones.
Sections of the Roman Catholic Church have really messed with the brand. With sales way down, they say the customer is to blame or the market has changed. But it’ll turn around! Just keep doing what you’ve been doing. We just need more cathechesis!
brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins133991.html
Seems like Pope John XXIII thought Latin was very important.
Re: Liberalism. I’ve read that bishops who preach traditional Catholic doctrine have no shortage of vocations, whereas those who allow liberalism in their diocese, don’t. I’ve seen this in dioceses known to me. Only one vocation a year (if they’re lucky).
If you want people to take your rites seriously, take them seriously yourself. Don’t jazz them up and water them down. Preach the hard truths of our religion. Don’t tell everyone “Jesus loves you”, with the implication he’s really easy going and then wonder why people don’t go to confession any more.
Want to revoke religious awe? Don’t drop a mysterious language and then, because you have to find new hymns, use really banal ones.
Sections of the Roman Catholic Church have really messed with the brand. With sales way down, they say the customer is to blame or the market has changed. But it’ll turn around! Just keep doing what you’ve been doing. We just need more cathechesis!
brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins133991.html
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
“Liberalism” as a specific heresy is defined by the Church in a specific way. Given that, I don’t know any liberal bishops, at least as far as what the Church defines as a heresy.
You’re quite right, we need more catechesis, but it needs to be founded on the TRUTH, not on mistruths (one example: Latin is sacred because it was one of the languages on the Titulus Crucis, a notion already dismissed by the Holy See) or misconceptions (Blessed Pope John XXIII’s opinion on Latin is not binding on the Church because A) it does not touch on a matter of faith or morals and B) it is not a part of Sacred Tradition).
Mystery/awe and understanding/comprehension are not mutually exclusive. I get the chills at Mass and I can understand every word.
I
InquisitorMax
Guest
I meant liberalism in the sense of being tolerant of creativity in the Mass, ecumenism without an attempt at conversion and silence on Hell, Mortal Sin and Judgement.
Latin is a sacred language in the Roman Catholic Church; it is a language set apart for religious use.
Pope John’s document may not be dogma but the points it makes are pertinent and interesting. Especially as it was he who called the Second Vatican Council.
I think demographics, implosion and embarassment will probably do away with the vernacular eventually; it’s leading, along with the other changes, to masses which are just not as attractive as the old rite.
Latin is a sacred language in the Roman Catholic Church; it is a language set apart for religious use.
Pope John’s document may not be dogma but the points it makes are pertinent and interesting. Especially as it was he who called the Second Vatican Council.
I think demographics, implosion and embarassment will probably do away with the vernacular eventually; it’s leading, along with the other changes, to masses which are just not as attractive as the old rite.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
How do you think the Mass came to be as it is today or in Trent from what it was at the Last Supper and the road to Emmaus?
M
MarkThompson
Guest
This is not true. The Church uses Latin for all kinds of non-religious uses: letters appointing people to various positions, certificates congratulating people for things – even the Latin ATM:
http://morrisonworldnews.com/wp-con...ican-Bank-ATM-machine-is-in-Latin-500x336.jpg
Latin is many things, but it has never in history been set apart for religious use. Now that would be a bizarre, completely untraditional approach!
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