Is Latin superior than other languages?

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BR> JR I would like to thank you again for all the great information, I am really learnig much from this. We are getting a little “off topic” here with which form or rites are used in the Mass or how we learn the faith. It really doesn’t matter really how you pray but that you pray and believe in the Church’s teachings! No matter how you learn the faith just learn the faith and live it.We need to DEMAND from our priests (no matter which form your local church uses) that they be HOLY and foster us to be HOLY and LIVE the message of Christ! Back again to the question at hand, Is Latin superior to other languages? NO it is NOT! I do feel however, that it does have an advantage because it is a DEAD language.The meaning of English words change so fast the English translation of the Mass will have to updated often. take for example the word “gay” in 1850 this word meaning was something very different, in my class you get a “snicker” from the kids when “gay apperal” is sung.Can we be kind to each other and just agree to all pray (within the Church) in WHATEVER WAY gets us closer to God and to Heaven! Please lets not become the “2011 Scribes” and argue “the Law” let us just follow it and love God with our whole heart soul and mind and our NEIGHBOR as OUR SELF.God Bless you all!
 
So are you deliberately exaggerating my position, so as to make my claims seem outrageous*, or would you like to debate what I actually said?

*A tactic I’ve noticed a fair bit on this forum]

The idea that memorization excludes understanding is false. When I was in school, I learned that the simplest way to learn something was to reduce it to its bare essentials and memorise it. This was a good way to pass exams.

Or you could just read and discuss it and write about it and read it over and over and come exam time, well …

Now, does the Catholic church have a document that reduces the Faith to its essentials? 😃

Memorization does not imply understanding. And memorization can help pass some exams, but not others. Is most disciplines, memorization will get you to a point, but on;y the basics. You will never get past the most rudimentary levels of anything by relying on memorization. It is one thing to memorize the Ten Commandments, and quite another to understand what is implied beneath the surface.
 
Memorization does not imply understanding. And memorization can help pass some exams, but not others. Is most disciplines, memorization will get you to a point, but on;y the basics. You will never get past the most rudimentary levels of anything by relying on memorization. It is one thing to memorize the Ten Commandments, and quite another to understand what is implied beneath the surface.
Now, tell me, out of 100 kids schooled in a Catholic school today, how many do you think could recite the 10 Commandments?

Yes, there is a Mystery at the heart of our religion, but the basics are simple: “Obey these rules”.

A con is being perpetuated today, in Western culture. Education has become over-technical. Educators master an obscurantist language of technospeak, which they preach to each other. Its effect is not to reveal the truth, but to obscure it.

Memorise the 10 Commandments, the Credo, the Our Father and Hail Mary and the 7 deadly sins and you’re well on your way to being a good Catholic. Simple and saves time and money 😃

Or you could just draw pictures about how you feel about things.

It comes to something when your hear that kids are leaving school without being able to read and write properly; after 12 years! Why? Because of current teaching methods.
 
Dear Lord, I just realised:

The old rite, especially the Low Mass, is a vehicle which helps our religion survive fashion. And that annoying Latin, because it can’t be undertood immediately, is part of that.
 
I do feel however, that it does have an advantage because it is a DEAD language.
But that has a bad connotation and only gives excuses to those who aren’t motivated to study or use it. Their understanding of “dead” is, well er… dead. Maybe better to use the word “immutable.” Or does that have too many syllables for the Latin bashers? 🙂
 
Dear Lord, I just realised:

The old rite, especially the Low Mass, is a vehicle which helps our religion survive fashion. And that annoying Latin, because it can’t be undertood immediately, is part of that.
As I said can we live the Faith! That statement is so “small” It may be “annoying” to you due to your lack of understanding ,many do understand it completely. Many people are versed in a number of languages. The issue many around the world have with Americans is they expect the whole world to understand English but do not even TRY to learn another language. America is becoming very lazy.Enough said just pray the way you do understand and not put down the way someone else wants to pray the mass. ALL of us needs to understand that The Holy Father wants ALL forms of the Mass to learn from each other!
 
But that has a bad connotation and only gives excuses to those who aren’t motivated to study or use it. Their understanding of “dead” is, well er… dead. Maybe better to use the word “immutable.” Or does that have too many syllables for the Latin bashers? 🙂
You do have a point. We do however have to try “KEEP OUR HEADS , WHEN ALL AROUND US ARE LOSING THEIRS AND BLAMING IT ON US” Some people will not even try to learn English let alone another language.
 
Some people will not even try to learn English let alone another language.
That becomes truer and truer every day. Do they even teach grammar anymore? Seems like even those dumb computerless Romans knew a thing or two about that.
 
Can there be a more Sacred language than that which the Lord spoke (Aramaic)?
 
That becomes truer and truer every day. Do they even teach grammar anymore? Seems like even those dumb computerless Romans knew a thing or two about that.
I sometimes wonder? People in our area are upset over the new English translation of the Mass.They say it doesn’t “flow” in the English style of today.What that means only God knows,I guess.At least it is a step in the right direction anyway.
 
You do have a point. We do however have to try “KEEP OUR HEADS , WHEN ALL AROUND US ARE LOSING THEIRS AND BLAMING IT ON US” Some people will not even try to learn English let alone another language.
I like the Kipling paraphrase!
 
Now, tell me, out of 100 kids schooled in a Catholic school today, how many do you think could recite the 10 Commandments?

Yes, there is a Mystery at the heart of our religion, but the basics are simple: “Obey these rules”.

A con is being perpetuated today, in Western culture. Education has become over-technical. Educators master an obscurantist language of technospeak, which they preach to each other. Its effect is not to reveal the truth, but to obscure it.

Memorise the 10 Commandments, the Credo, the Our Father and Hail Mary and the 7 deadly sins and you’re well on your way to being a good Catholic. Simple and saves time and money 😃

Or you could just draw pictures about how you feel about things.

It comes to something when your hear that kids are leaving school without being able to read and write properly; after 12 years! Why? Because of current teaching methods.
I am not talkig about “fluffy pedagogy”, but truly understanding the faith. For example “Do not steal” encompasses much more than not physically stealing, but also such principles as the universal destination of goods. That is something you cannot get from rote memorization.
 
I am not talkig about “fluffy pedagogy”, but truly understanding the faith. For example “Do not steal” encompasses much more than not physically stealing, but also such principles as the universal destination of goods. That is something you cannot get from rote memorization.
Ah, but it also means: DON’T STEAL. Easier to understand than ‘the universal destination of goods’.

If ya can’t understand that, ya shouldn’t be let out without a minder. 😃

The Catholic Church: Keeping it simple since the year 0. Give 'em the basics first and K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

Advanced theology later (if you have the time, money, a smart, interested pupil and a keen, knowledgeable teacher … see how people can lose the Faith while ostensibly being taught it? A lot of ducks have to line up before you can get to that stage. Get the basics into 'em first.)
 
At least it is a step in the right direction anyway.
If it brings them closer to realizing the source of the truth. But there’s still a lot lost in any translation, especially into a language largely controlled by Protestant influence. If it becomes strictly an obedience issue, then I don’t see much gained in the understanding of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which is already at a very low ebb.
 
Ah, but it also means: DON’T STEAL. Easier to understand than ‘the universal destination of goods’.

If ya can’t understand that, ya shouldn’t be let out without a minder. 😃

The Catholic Church: Keeping it simple since the year 0. Give 'em the basics first and K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

Advanced theology later (if you have the time, money, a smart, interested pupil and a keen, knowledgeable teacher … see how people can lose the Faith while ostensibly being taught it? A lot of ducks have to line up before you can get to that stage. Get the basics into 'em first.)
I never said otherwise, but I do not believe in dumbing down the faith. Limiting it in such away results in poor catechesis. I guess rote memorization id fine for those who never progress past infant’s milk. But at some point you need to get to the meat.
 
I just asked my mum 70’s from a pious rural community in Ireland; does she remember the Latin mass. She said yes. I asked her did she understand what was going on; she said no so the younger people just used the Rosary crucifixes to cut their names into seats and try to chat to their mates while the priest with his back to them was getting on with it. I asked what about the adults. She said the all sat saying the rosary as the priest kep’t doing his thing. The women all on one side of church ; men on other but a great collection of men at the back of the church chattting to each other as the priest got in with it. So I asked her how would she compare things now; well she said all the rosary beads are gone in mass and people are watching thee priest. So maybe you guys are right lets get back to the gold old days. She does concede that if she goes to Latin mass now she does find it nice but thinks this could be nostalgia. Remember the older people of these congregation were people who as children could have been shot for going to mass so were faithfull to their beliefs.
 
but a great collection of men at the back of the church chattting to each other as the priest got in with it. So I asked her how would she compare things now; well she said all the rosary beads are gone in mass and people are watching thee priest.
Actually, this still goes on; the chatting, I mean. I’m not sure the Irish are capable of being quiet; I might have to go to a Latin Mass there to find out 😉
 
Ah, but it also means: DON’T STEAL. Easier to understand than ‘the universal destination of goods’.

If ya can’t understand that, ya shouldn’t be let out without a minder. 😃

The Catholic Church: Keeping it simple since the year 0. Give 'em the basics first and K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

Advanced theology later (if you have the time, money, a smart, interested pupil and a keen, knowledgeable teacher … see how people can lose the Faith while ostensibly being taught it? A lot of ducks have to line up before you can get to that stage. Get the basics into 'em first.)
This is not the way that it happened at all. It was the other way around. It all begins with the theological dissertations found in the Epistles, the historical narratives that followed in the Gospels, the theological arguments of the Fathers, the Councils, the writing and teachings of the Spiritual Masters. Finally, in th 1500s were catechism published with the question and answer format. From there, many other editions were published in subsequent years and centuries, some better and some worse.

The Church never began with “keep is simple.” The simple catechism were written for several reasons:

a. By the 1500s Catholics did not read Latin. They needed very simple catechism that were easier to translate than the Fathers of the Church.

b. At that same time, the Counter Reformation was in effect. There was a need to give Catholics a crash course in the faith.

c. The Church never said that these catechism had all of the answers. She said they were free of error.

d. The great Christian educators rejected the catechisms and did not use them. Benedictines did not use them in their monastery schools. St. Francis de Sales and later the Salesians did not use them, one of the largest teaching congregations in the Church. St. John Baptist de La Salle and his Christian Brothers did not use them until they came to American and adopted the Baltimore Catechism. The Jesuits did the same thing. They came to America from France and Spain. They were not very proficient in English so they adopted the Baltimore Catechism. But they did not use the catechisms in their schools in Europe. Franciscans never used the catechism. We always used the writings of the Franciscan masters and the scriptures.

It’s only in the 19th century that the catechism becomes generally adopted, because the world has expanded and not everyone speaks the same language. The Catechism could be translated from the Latin to whatever language. They were short. In the USA, the Baltimore Catechism was a translation of a translation. The original catechism that was to be adapted for the American Province was a translation of the Catechism of Trent into French. It was to be translated from French to English. The American Bishops decided to wait a while. That crew died off. They were replaced by another crew that was not at the Council of Baltimore. The new crew of bishops adopted an Irish catechism and translated it from Standard English to American English. The Vatican was very displeased, but did not intervene, because it was not until Vatican II that the Council made it clear that bishops must govern in communion with the pope and the pope in communion with his bishops on pastoral matters as well as faith and morals. Up to then, pastoral matters were not the concern of the popes. Something like a catechism was not the concern of a pope. Pope Pius X wrote one, but never promulgated it. It’s there for the taking. Unlike the CCC which must be used as the point of reference for all other catechism, according to an apostolic decree by Pope John Paul II.
Memorization does not imply understanding. And memorization can help pass some exams, but not others. Is most disciplines, memorization will get you to a point, but on;y the basics. You will never get past the most rudimentary levels of anything by relying on memorization. It is one thing to memorize the Ten Commandments, and quite another to understand what is implied beneath the surface.
You are correct. The taxonomy of human cognition begins from the bottom up
  1. use/create
  2. analyze/evaluate
  3. apply
  4. explain/describe
  5. remember
When you can go from stage one to stage four, then you have mastered a concept.
Can there be a more Sacred language than that which the Lord spoke (Aramaic)?
Now we’re getting silly. You’re joking right?

Jesus was also a carpenter. Is carpentry more sacred driving a bus?

Things do not become sacred by association. They are sacred because they are part of the Spiritual life.

Besides, we know that Jesus also spoke Hebrew and probably had rudimentary knowledge of Latin, since he and Joseph were members of the merchant class. It is reasonable to believe that they dealt with Latin speaking customers. Joseph and Jesus did sell what they made. Joseph was really a craftsman, not a carpenter. Carpenter is a modern misconception. Carpenter to a Jew is one who creates artifacts out of wood. Carpenter as we think today is one who works with wood. He or she builds things. That’s not the Jewish concept of carpenter. That’s a builder. Jewish carpenters were artists

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Actually, this still goes on; the chatting, I mean. I’m not sure the Irish are capable of being quiet; I might have to go to a Latin Mass there to find out 😉
Have you ever been to mass at the Vatican?

It is the noisiest place in the world. It also has the worse accoustics. Unless you’re sitting very close to the front, it sounds as if the speaker is talking through a tin can. Directly behind the main altar, there is an exit to a courtyard. It’s a small one. That’s how you get to the bathrooms. When you have to go you run into the Swiss Guards in the courtyard, just behind the sanctuary, having a cig and a short conversation before going in to relieve the guards standing at the mass. There is a lot of activity going on all around you the whole time.

Because St. Peter’s does not have seating all the way to the back, on big holy days, such as Easter and Christmas, they add folding chairs to accomodate more people. Those chairs are noisy, especially in a building that was not built with that kind of chair in mind. The last time I was there, I remember people in the back standing on the chairs so they could see the Holy Father pass as he was leaving. The noise was incredible.

After spending 7-years in Rome, I will never complain about a noisy church again. At least most of our churches have some kind of buffering system. The old Italian churches do not.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
That’s not bad at all. You have the normal babbling and movement of kids, one kid and one adult who need Robutussin, but that’s it. Go to a Roman church. I truly believe it’s the construction.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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