Is Liberal Catholicism Dead?

[Howard_Roark]

Oh, I don’t think so…do you really think attendance at, say, Tridentine Masses is shrinking?

 

[ethelzguy]

Oh, I don’t think so…do you really think attendance at, say, Tridentine Masses is shrinking?

Can’t say, since I haven’t been to a Latin Mass since about 1973.

That being said, there is a whole lot more to the Catholic Church and life in the Church than attendance counts at a TLM. I could ask you the same question about LifeTeen

 

[CradleCath]

So, you’re saying that the sex/pedophila scandals are part of “Liberal Catholicism”?

Actually, I’M not saying anything & all Pope Benedict mentioned was the “deep shame” he feels over the abuse of primarily young boys.

BTW. The scandal was not one of “pedophilia”…a rare sexual disorder. It was a scandal of Pederasty. I think you may have seen the definition as I gave it once before…but, just in case:

Pederasty or paederasty refers to sexual relations between an adult man and a minor boy, typically involving anal intercourse with the boy as the passive partner.[1] Pederasty has existed from earliest times through a variety of customs and practices within different cultures.
Pederasty is contrasted with the other two forms of male homosexuality, androphilia and gender-structured relations, which are currently prevalent in modern industrialized societies.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty

 

[CradleCath]

Can’t say, since I haven’t been to a Latin Mass since about 1973.

That being said, there is a whole lot more to the Catholic Church and life in the Church than attendance counts at a TLM. I could ask you the same question about LifeTeen

Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns introduced by disposition of divine Providence. Piux XII

Let’s see…offering the Sacrifice of the Mass on a table instead of an altar & receiving Communion in the hand are just two of the things of antiquity that found their way into the Novus Ordo. Do you think the Pope was speaking of them?

If you want to quote from Pius XII’s Mediator Dei, you might want to study the context in which the quote appeared & provide a link so that all can see the words of Pope Pius XII:

. "The Church is without question a living organism, and as an organism, in respect of the sacred liturgy also, she grows, matures, develops, adapts and accommodates herself to temporal needs and circumstances, provided only that the integrity of her doctrine be safeguarded. This notwithstanding, the temerity and daring of those who introduce novel liturgical practices, or call for the revival of obsolete rites out of harmony with prevailing laws and rubrics, deserve severe reproof. It has pained Us grievously to note, Venerable Brethren, that such innovations are actually being introduced, not merely in minor details but in matters of major importance as well. We instance, in point of fact, those who make use of the vernacular in the celebration of the august eucharistic sacrifice; those who transfer certain feast-days - which have been appointed and established after mature deliberation - to other dates; those, finally, who delete from the prayerbooks approved for public use the sacred texts of the Old Testament, deeming them little suited and inopportune for modern times."
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html

/B]/QUOTE}

 

[ethelzguy]

CradleCath:
Yay, more cut and paste logic

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

No, I wouldn’t say that liberal Catholicism was dead. And I hope that it continues. For myself, I can remember the changes made in Vatican I and II.

Chronologically speaking, the adherents to the TLM will probably pass before those who experienced the great changes in the Church in the sixties and seventies. There’s no heresy or sin in being a liberal. Or in being a liberal Catholic.

In these times with declining numbers of church attendees and attacks from without and within the Church I prefer to stress the common things which bind Catholics together, not petty differences.

 

[CradleCath]

Yay, more cut and paste logic

Now, that’s DEEP!!!

 

[CradleCath]

No, I wouldn’t say that liberal Catholicism was dead. And I hope that it continues. For myself, I can remember the changes made in Vatican I and II.

As I can, AND I can also see the results of these changes within the Church today. Not good. Catholics attending Mass once a month, boys who were sexually abused, the Real Presence denied by over half of the laity, etc., etc.

Chronologically speaking, the adherents to the TLM will probably pass before those who experienced the great changes in the Church in the sixties and seventies

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

There is a chance that, no matter what I think, a woman’s right to choose an abortion is a constitutional right under our laws. And, for myself, there are legal reasons I think the laws as to who is a relative should be changed. For instance, who can sue for wrongful death. But I am not in favor of same-sex marriages.

Women as priests and married priests violate canon law – and I follow canon law as much as possible. I’m a liberal and a Catholic liberal. There’s nothing unusual about me. Particularly in my parish.

 

[fatima1917]

From “LIBERALISM IS A SIN” by Dr. Don Felix Sarda Y Salvany, Roman Catholic Priest

CHAPTER 3
LIBERALISM IS A SIN

Liberalism, whether in the doctrinal or practical order, is a sin. In the doctrinal order, it is heresy, and consequently a mortal sin against faith. In the practical order it is a sin against the commandments of God and of the Church, for it virtually transgresses all commandments. To be more precise: in the doctrinal order Liberalism strikes at the very foundations of faith; it is heresy radical and universal, because (22) within it are comprehended all heresies. In the practical order it is a radical and universal infraction of the divine law, since it sanctions and authorizes all infractions of that law.

Preface to the book:

In 1886 there appeared in Spain a little work under the title El Liberalismo es Pecado: “Liberalism Is A Sin,” by Don Felix Sarda y Salvany, a priest of Barcelona and editor of a journal called La Revista Popular. The book excited considerable commotion. It was vigorously assailed by the Liberals. A Spanish Bishop, of a Liberal turn, instigated an answer to Dr. Sarda’s work by another Spanish priest. Both books were sent to Rome praying the Sacred Congregation of the Index to put Dr. Sarda’s work under the ban. The following letter, under date January 10, 1887, from the Sacred Congregation itself, explains the result of its consideration of the two volumes:

Most Excellent Sir:

The Sacred Congregation of the Index has received the denunciation of the little work bearing the title “El Liberalismo es Pecado” by Don Felix Sarda y Salvany, a priest of your diocese; the denunciation (pg. iii) was accompanied at the same time by another little work entitled “El Proceso del Integrismo,” that is “a refutation of the errors contained in the little work El Liberalismo es Pecado.” The author of the second work is D. de Pazos, a canon of the diocese of Vich.

Wherefore the Sacred Congregation has carefully examined both works, and decided as follows: In the first not only is nothing found contrary to sound doctrine, but its author, D. Felix Sarda merits great praise for his exposition and defense of the sound doctrine therein set forth with solidity, order and lucidity, and without personal offense to anyone.

The same judgement, however, cannot be passed on the other work by D. de Pazos, for in matter it needs corrections. Moreover his injurious manner of speaking cannot be approved, for he inveighs rather against the person of D. Sarda, than against the latter’s supposed errors.

 

[5pintLutheran]

Good Lord… Let’s hope so.

 

[PrayforMallory]

No, I wouldn’t say that liberal Catholicism was dead. And I hope that it continues. For myself, I can remember the changes made in Vatican I and II.

If you can remember Vatican I, well, I want to know your secret to good health. Maybe you are a highlander?

Chronologically speaking, the adherents to the TLM will probably pass before those who experienced the great changes in the Church in the sixties and seventies. There’s no heresy or sin in being a liberal. Or in being a liberal Catholic.

I hope that’s not true. My daughter was born in 2003. I hope she outlives people who were alive during Vat II. I was born in 1981, and I’m not really in the best of health, so maybe I’ll be gone before them. Hope not though. I hope everybody lives to be 120.

In these times with declining numbers of church attendees and attacks from without and within the Church I prefer to stress the common things which bind Catholics together, not petty differences.

That’s great.

I don’t know what you mean by “liberal Catholic.” When I use the term, I mean it in the sense of “heterodox,” i.e. supporting abortion, birth control, womens’ ordination, laity electing bishops and priests, etc. None of these are going to happen. The day the Vatican tolerates abortion is the day millions of Catholics become sedevacantists. Womens’ ordination has been infallibly declared to be impossible, same as same-sex marriages. JPII stood up to those groups and basically told them to submit or else. It’s only a matter of time before they start implementing his policies. Ironically, though a lot of traditionalists might not like it, a good bit of this return to tradition and the reaffirmation of the timeless faith seems to me to be due in large part to JPII’s refusal to bend on moral issues.

If someone is a “progressive” and under a certain age, they just stop going to Church entirely. Liberal Catholicism might not be dead yet, but it is certainly in the terminal phase, in my opinion.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Can’t say, since I haven’t been to a Latin Mass since about 1973.

That being said, there is a whole lot more to the Catholic Church and life in the Church than attendance counts at a TLM. I could ask you the same question about LifeTeen

True, but I wouldn’t call LifeTeen “liberal,” in that they teach the faith and morals of Catholicism at them, i.e. no sex outside of marriage, no birth control, pursue spiritual growth, etc.

The other movements besides the traditional movement, i.e. the Neo-Catechumenal Way, Charismatic movement, etc., aren’t really “liberal,” in my opinion. Pope Benedict has said that the future of the Church lies in the movements, and none of them appear to be very heterodox when it comes to morality.

 

[Howard_Roark]

There’s no heresy or sin in being a liberal. Or in being a liberal Catholic.

Yes there is.

 

[PrayforMallory]

There is a chance that, no matter what I think, a woman’s right to choose an abortion is a constitutional right under our laws. And, for myself, there are legal reasons I think the laws as to who is a relative should be changed. For instance, who can sue for wrongful death. But I am not in favor of same-sex marriages.

Women as priests and married priests violate canon law – and I follow canon law as much as possible. I’m a liberal and a Catholic liberal. There’s nothing unusual about me. Particularly in my parish.

I would think that saying that a woman having a right to choose would be pretty unorthodox. Abortion is not in any way something new. To the contrary, the Church struggled to outlaw it in the late Roman empire. It’s been practiced and also condemned right up until the present day, thus, it’s been infallibly declared as a mortal sin. It cannot be changed. The constitution of the United States should be changed whenever it contradicts the immutable laws of God.

 

[CradleCath]

There is a chance that, no matter what I think, a woman’s right to choose an abortion is a constitutional right under our laws.

Yes, it’s a Constitutional right but it does matter what you think. It matters what I think & it matters what each & everyone of us think. I believe that the law granting a woman the right to kill her unborn child is an evil law & I will do everything in my power to fight & possibly change this law. Now, there isn’t a whole lot I can do, but there are some things. I can volunteer for my states Right To Life organization, check out the voting record of politicians running for office & I can pray.

(BTW.) Your answer to my ‘stance on abortion’ question is rather ambiguous???

And, for myself, there are legal reasons I think the laws as to who is a relative should be changed. For instance, who can sue for wrongful death. But I am not in favor of same-sex marriages.

 

[CradleCath]

QUOTE=PrayforMallory;3818562]**I would think that saying that a woman having a right to choose would be pretty unorthodox. **

Yep, I think the poster who declared that “abortion is a constitutional right” fits his self-identification as a liberal. Roe vs. Wade resulted in a horrible law & as Catholics, it’s our DUTY to work until that law is changed. “Legal right” does not equal moral right & as long as our country permits such a monstrosity to occur without punishment, I fear that the old cliche coined during the second world war…“God is on our side”…will no longer prove to be true.

What’s next? Destroying a child born retarded? Killing an elderly woman whose brain has been destroyed by alzheimers?

I do think that more & more people are seeing that the words “liberal Catholic”…are an oxymoran