Is Libertarianism the only way the Church can be saved?

[ManOnFire]

Several decades of the leftist media’s values have shown to be more powerful than catholic principles. The far left media continues to feed the messages of casual sex, drugs, materialism, and violence, until individuals have become more selfish and families are destroyed, weak and dependent. Then, after helping to create the problems, the far left pretends to be heros by giving away other people’s money to help pay for the problems they helped to create, and all “most” people can see is they’re sense of “charity.” If they really cared about charity, they wouldn’t be profiteering by fueling the problems in the first place. Their message of charity is enough to con more voters to vote them into office, which will cause atheistic socialism, which will force the church out of business. The church can see it coming, and this is why they are concerned.

 

[edward_george]

I don’t think any political system is the way the Church “can be saved.” The Church was founded by Christ and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her. We don’t need better marketing or political strategies. We only need to be faithful to Christ, the head of the body, and his promises to the Church.

-ACEGC

 

[Bill_Martin]

I don’t think any political system is the way the Church “can be saved.” The Church was founded by Christ and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her. We don’t need better marketing or political strategies. We only need to be faithful to Christ, the head of the body, and his promises to the Church.

-ACEGC

I agree with this. The problem is people and the removal of morality and reason, not the political system. Political systems are an effect of the people who form them, though they can mold their members towards a set of ideologies. People need to change personally and then we will see a shift in political actions as a result.

That said, I’m a libertarian.

 

[bearer]

The Church does not need to be saved. Christ has already done that. Remember, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The way to get people to (or back to) the Church is simply to evangelize in word and deed. The faithful, when out and about in their communities, do what no political campaigners ever could.

As for Libertarianism, I think it espouses licentiousness disguised as liberty. That’s the last thing we need…

 

[jeannetherese]

I don’t think any political system is the way the Church “can be saved.” The Church was founded by Christ and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her. We don’t need better marketing or political strategies. We only need to be faithful to Christ, the head of the body, and his promises to the Church.

-ACEGC

Amen.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

Several decades of the leftist media’s values have shown to be more powerful than catholic principles. The far left media continues to feed the messages of casual sex, drugs, materialism, and violence, until individuals have become more selfish and families are destroyed, weak and dependent. Then, after helping to create the problems, the far left pretends to be heros by giving away other people’s money to help pay for the problems they helped to create, and all “most” people can see is they’re sense of “charity.” If they really cared about charity, they wouldn’t be profiteering by fueling the problems in the first place. Their message of charity is enough to con more voters to vote them into office, which will cause atheistic socialism, which will force the church out of business. The church can see it coming, and this is why they are concerned.

You have a very cynical view of society and almost no knowledge of social history. Historically, morality in Western society, that is, society in Europe, North and South America can be likened to a giant pendulum that swings with some regularity between a society of morality and virtue and one in which licentiousness reigns. This pendulum has been in effect since the days of the Roman Empire, You may be too young to remember or know about it, but the period from around 1929 to the invention and sale of the birth control pill was one of societal morality. For example, there was no Playboy magazine until the late 1950’s and it was not allowed to be on public display in many parts of the US. In most places it was kept under the counter and brought out only when someone asked to buy a copy. When mailed, it was wrapped in a plain brown wrapper. This is just a minor example of what public moral standards were.
The point is, that Holy Mother The Church has survived all of this. She has lived through both the Nazis, Soviet and Chinese Communism, all of which tried to destroy the church and murdered millions of believers and untold thousands of Catholic and Orthodox clergy.
As noted in other responses in this thread: “And the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” To be more succenct in my reply, I will quote an old US Navy saying: “Nevah Hoppen!”.

 

[mdisse]

It could be a sigh that the anti christ is on his way

 

[Bill_7154]

Several decades of the leftist media’s values have shown to be more powerful than catholic principles. The far left media continues to feed the messages of casual sex, drugs, materialism, and violence, until individuals have become more selfish and families are destroyed, weak and dependent. Then, after helping to create the problems, the far left pretends to be heros by giving away other people’s money to help pay for the problems they helped to create, and all “most” people can see is they’re sense of “charity.” If they really cared about charity, they wouldn’t be profiteering by fueling the problems in the first place. Their message of charity is enough to con more voters to vote them into office, which will cause atheistic socialism, which will force the church out of business. The church can see it coming, and this is why they are concerned.

I think you might have ‘Libertarian’ confused with ‘Liberal’. Liberals are on the ‘left’ or ‘far left’ politically. Libertarians are something else. Libertarians believe in a live and let live philosophy. They do not advocate what others should do (other than respect other individuals right to make their own life choices so long as they are not infringing on the rights of others). Liberals, on the other hand, advocate the way other people should behave. Conservatives also advocate the way others should behave. Both liberals and concervatives seek to impose their will on others through the political process. Libertarians only seek to impose their will on others in so far as others do not do things like commit violence or theft towards other people. Other than that they want to be able to make their own choices in life so long as they are not harming others and want to allow other people to also make their own choices in life so long as they are not harming others, even if they strongly disagree with the choices others make. Liberals want to force others to go along with their choices. So do concervatives.

I think that’s a fair characterization of the differences between these different political parties/philosophies.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Jesus Christ is the only way, and the Church doesn’t need to be “saved”. Christ already saved it.

That said I don’t agree with Libertarianism anyway due to it’s favoring of neoliberalism.

 

[ManOnFire]

I don’t think any political system is the way the Church “can be saved.” The Church was founded by Christ and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her. We don’t need better marketing or political strategies. We only need to be faithful to Christ, the head of the body, and his promises to the Church.

-ACEGC

If the agnostic progressives in the media have more influence to determine the average person’s values than the church, then it will be an interesting battle over the coming years.

 

[ManOnFire]

The problem is people and the removal of morality and reason, not the political system. Political systems are an effect of the people who form them, though they can mold their members towards a set of ideologies. People need to change personally and then we will see a shift in political actions as a result.

That said, I’m a libertarian.

Many agnostic progressives want to move in the direction of “anything goes” moral relativists who believe no objective morality exists. As long as their message continues to be more influential than the church’s, more people will be weakened into needing govt support. I have the very best of intentions for the weak and the downtrodden, that’s why I wish someone would in the media would talk about how they will need the govt more and more if we continue to move in this direction. It’s a reasonably forseeable event. I have no problem with freedom to choose one’s lifestyle, as long as they pay for their own consequences of their own free will decisions.

 

[ManOnFire]

The Church does not need to be saved. Christ has already done that. Remember, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The way to get people to (or back to) the Church is simply to evangelize in word and deed. The faithful, when out and about in their communities, do what no political campaigners ever could.

As for Libertarianism, I think it espouses licentiousness disguised as liberty. That’s the last thing we need…

The point I’m trying to raise is that the agnostic progressives are taking us in the direction of a godless “anything goes” morality where people live for the day, trying to feel as much pleasure in a day as possible, but we still have Christian charity to bail out the growing numbers of people who will predictably be reduced into needing aid as a result. If agnostic progressives believe that God truly doesn’t exist and choose to live that way, then human behavior is motivated by pleasure and demotivated by suffering. In this worldview, money buys more pleasure. I respect the many good Christians on this site who believe that most people are trying their best to be morally right and just, but more and more people are not trying to be morally right and just thanks to the agnostic progressives promotion of hedonistic moral relativism. More and more people are no longer “trying” because of the paradigm shift in life goals as defined by the progressives. That’s the point. Right now, we’re taking godless morality and combining it with God-fearing charity. It’s mismatched, and the church is only going to continue to lose ground from a moral standpoint, in the name of charity for those who are intentionally being weakened into needing aid. The push for charity gives the agnostic progressives more votes and more political power to make religion less relevant.

Libertarianism will force people to be stronger and choosier in actions in a godless society, which is where we are headed.

 

[ManOnFire]

You have a very cynical view of society and almost no knowledge of social history. Historically, morality in Western society, that is, society in Europe, North and South America can be likened to a giant pendulum that swings with some regularity between a society of morality and virtue and one in which licentiousness reigns. This pendulum has been in effect since the days of the Roman Empire, You may be too young to remember or know about it, but the period from around 1929 to the invention and sale of the birth control pill was one of societal morality. For example, there was no Playboy magazine until the late 1950’s and it was not allowed to be on public display in many parts of the US. In most places it was kept under the counter and brought out only when someone asked to buy a copy. When mailed, it was wrapped in a plain brown wrapper. This is just a minor example of what public moral standards were.
The point is, that Holy Mother The Church has survived all of this. She has lived through both the Nazis, Soviet and Chinese Communism, all of which tried to destroy the church and murdered millions of believers and untold thousands of Catholic and Orthodox clergy.
As noted in other responses in this thread: “And the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” To be more succenct in my reply, I will quote an old US Navy saying: “Nevah Hoppen!”.

Two historical differences are that they now own the media and the acadmics. They keep invoking scientific belief in the creation of the cosmos in the name of science, even though there’s still no science to explain how absolute nothing could magically pop into the first something, but they’re still spreading this belief to impressionable minds despite it’s lack of logic and science. It will be fascinating to see what happens. The progressives are inviting God to a showdown at high noon.

 

[indiancatholic]

Liberation cannot “save” the church it only destroys it .
When it destroys a traditional society some think that they got liberated from it
but MODERN LIBERATION is destruction without rebuilding it IN A BETTER WAY it is a BLACK HOLE ,FROM WHICH NO LIGHT CAN COME .

 

[jeannetherese]

The libertarians in my community tend to be “pro anything goes according to the desire of the individual adult” when it comes to the subject of abortion. this makes me question the compatibility between libertarianism and the Catholic church.

 

[ManOnFire]

The libertarians in my community tend to be “pro anything goes according to the desire of the individual adult” when it comes to the subject of abortion. this makes me question the compatibility between libertarianism and the Catholic church.

Did you mean to say Liberals? Because millions of catholics will be running to the polls to vote for more of what you just described come November. The difference between Libertarians is that they prefer individual responsibility and a smaller govt which won’t squash the church vs. Liberals who want “anything goes” moral relativism while forcing the masses to pay for the results and big govt which will squash the church. The church didn’t hold the “Fortnight for Religious Freedom” for no reason.

 

[Bill_Martin]

The libertarians in my community tend to be “pro anything goes according to the desire of the individual adult” when it comes to the subject of abortion. this makes me question the compatibility between libertarianism and the Catholic church.

Look up Libertarians for Life. There is a very strong pro life movement within the Libertarian party. The concept is pretty simple. Everyone has a right to life. No other rights can exist without that first. Murder deprives a person of that right. Therefore, abortion is completely unacceptable and should be fought.

Another important thing to note is that libetarianism does not say that anything and everything is morally acceptable; it merely says that the government should not be enforcing it on the individual except in cases where the individual harms someone else.

 

[JIB]

Look up Libertarians for Life. There is a very strong pro life movement within the Libertarian party. The concept is pretty simple. Everyone has a right to life. No other rights can exist without that first. Murder deprives a person of that right. Therefore, abortion is completely unacceptable and should be fought.

Another important thing to note is that libetarianism does not say that anything and everything is morally acceptable; it merely says that the government should not be enforcing it on the individual except in cases where the individual harms someone else.

+1,

It seems most on this forum don’t understand what libertarianism is. It’s a legal philosophy, not a moral one.

St. Augustine and St. Thomas made very good arguments for legalizing prostitution and therefore legalizing drugs, etc.

 

[jeannetherese]

Look up Libertarians for Life. There is a very strong pro life movement within the Libertarian party. The concept is pretty simple. Everyone has a right to life. No other rights can exist without that first. Murder deprives a person of that right. Therefore, abortion is completely unacceptable and should be fought.

Another important thing to note is that libetarianism does not say that anything and everything is morally acceptable; it merely says that
the government should not be enforcing it on the individual except in cases where the individual harms someone else.

Thank you. I did look up the group before making my initial post and was quite impressed. It is possible that those I have met who self -described as libertarian were in the other camp in regards to this issue, or that they have a less defined understanding of libertarianism than yourself.
Because so many of the arguments swirling through political discourse are dealing with definitions of person/individual/ and harm, I’m not sure we will get far with this approach.

In this country corporations have legal standings as persons (Taft-Hartley 1947). Individuals campaign to regulations (often through their political parties) to address issues of harm (pollution, unsafe working conditions) and it seems that in a sense, they are making an argument that works with this definition. And yet, the people whom I have talked with who self describe as libertarian are very strongly opposed to regulation and argue that it is a constraint on business.
Is there a book you might recommend that would help sort things out a bit more clearly?
Thank you for sharing your ideas..

 

[jeannetherese]

+1,

It seems most on this forum don’t understand what libertarianism is. It’s a legal philosophy, not a moral one.

.

But I wonder if legal philosophies might have moral implications?