Is life and/or consciousness a fractal pattern?

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I heard this idea that the whole universe is constructed from fractal patterns and mathematical shapes/equations, even the forms of biological life. But I have a strong intuition that life qua life is not simply an emergent pattern. Maybe I have it due to the belief that life was created directly by God and does not merely emerge naturally from the cosmos.

But I’ve heard the idea that all existence must have one root, with similar laws and principles responsible for it all, which to me sounds rather pantheistic. I think life is a fundamentally distinct reality from the rest of the cosmos, and consciousness much more so. I don’t think it works according to mathematical principles though I might be wrong.

Please help me understand the philosophy of this, with a Catholic oerspective.
 
I don’t think anyone (so far) quite understands what it is you want to know precisely. You want someone to type up the Roman Catholic view of the origins and nature of life in general and human life in particular? That would have to be a pretty long post, don’t you think? I suggest you read a good book on the matter first, and come back here with more specific questions. But note that Roman Catholicism, being a religion, is primarily concerned with guiding its members in their efforts at working their Salvation. Providing a comprehensive model of how life originated and how it progresses is not the Church’s primary goal. The topic is of some interest, but it doesn’t take center stage.
 
I think there is plenty of room for reconciliation. We can agree that God alone is the single source and cause of all that exists, the fundamental consciousness of reality. How God expresses and creates the universe can be observed in natural patterns.

Atheist refer the emergent properties when it comes to life and consciousness, is if at some point things just get so complex that they become alive. That may be true to some degree but really does not explain life and consciousness; nor how somethings move toward the life development integration while other things move toward disintegration.
 
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I think that maths, geometry, fractals etc describe some aspects of reality very well but they aren’t to be mistaken for reality themselves. I think that’s a mistake.

And as yet science cannot describe spirit and yet spirit exists.
 
Yes, this is my hunch too. I think that thinking of life as being mathematically representable by equations and such is fundamentally wrong but I dunno why. It just seems that way, intuitively.

To put this in more recognizably Catholic terms, my question involves these two things.

We don’t believe that God is creator by nature but rather by an act of his arbitrary freedom. So the idea that all of existence arises organically from repeating patterns seems to indicate something contrary: that we emerge from God as an off-shoot of sorts.

That’s one view.

The other thing is the idea that we are made in God’s image: What does it mean, ontologically? To these other guys, it would seem to reflect the fractal idea; we are iterations of a fundamental pattern that is God.

That’s what I was asking. Because I do think that the physical universe, the cosmos, is a huge canvas of fractals. But I also think life, and especially human consciousness (our spirit) is something entirely distinct. So I’m reluctant to accept the idea that all reality can be described in fractal terms. I think, like you, that life/spirit etc have the same SOURCE i.e., a creative act of the divine will, but this does not mean that they operate on the same laws/principles.
 
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You got at what I was asking. I feel that life is something very different and can’t be mathematically described very well.
 
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Why do you feel life must be “different”? What end does that serve?

I have no problem with an integrated whole held together and sourced in God.
 
Even if it is, it changes nothing.
God is still Creator, we are still His creatures .

Although it’s a neat theory 🙂
 
My issue isn’t so much reality per se but a specific reality: life. Is there a mathematical equation that describes what life is?
 
I feel it must be different because life seems inherently different from physics in general. Our physical bodies are part of physics but I doubt our actual life can be described using mathematics.

I.e. things like:
  1. Self-moving/perpetuating unities
and
  1. Self-reflecting, self-directing unities.
Are there mathematical descriptions for that?

These seem to me to be very different realities than the stuff math usually describes, but perhaps I’m wrong.
 
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lisaandlena said:
Some believe in a duality. That the mind exists independent of physical reality. But can it?
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This is what I believe. It seems to me obvious since God is a mind that obviously exists beyond physical reality.

I don’t know about human consciousness though.

And I don’t know how order operates when it comes to the nature of our being. I mean:
-There must be some order since we are not God. Is it representable by math on some level? I don’t know.
-But there is also freedom. Can you really represent freedom or even being as being mathematically?

X=X doesn’t represents being as being, it seems. In other words, the unconditioned reality that is God…is it really mathematically describable? I highly doubt it.

We are an essence and existence (creatures) and I think that our essence makes us mathematically describable (possibly) but I doubt our existence is mathematically describable.
 
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Also, @RealisticCatholic and @Wesrock…care to comment, please?
 
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Everything can be mathematically defined. Fractals are pretty awesome.

Mathematics quite simply is pattern maintenance.

God created maths. And the Universe and everything we know and don’t know.

Just Because we can define a life support system or shape or law mathematically, this, in no way,disputes God
 
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So whats the mathematical definition for life and consciousness?
 
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Rubee said:
Because I do think that the physical universe, the cosmos, is a huge canvas of fractals.
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Two problems:
  1. you might think that, but the list of things in out universe which can be modeled with fractals is not that large, and all of them only modeled in a finite fashion (ie the fractal patterns does not keep getting larger or smaller indefinitely)
  2. saying our universe is a canvas of fractals, or any other type of math function is very poor wording. A mathematical function may be able to represent some aspect of reality, but it is an abstraction, not the real thing. We may even use a mathematical term to describe or name it, buts it’s not that. If a cut a circle out of a piece of plywood, I might call it a circle, but that’s not what it is. A circle is a two dimensional construct with all points equidistant from a common point, it’s not a piece of plywood.
 
Knowledge is structured. Creation requires knowledge (otherwise you have chaos). Therefore creation is structured.
 
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Rubee said:
the unconditioned reality that is God…is it really mathematically describable? I highly doubt it.
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No because humans created math as a means for modeling what they observe. Humans observe facts and then construct a model (math) to explain the facts. The model (math) doesn’t exist in nature, the facts do. The model (math) exist in the human’s brain.
So God invented humans and humans invented math, so the math can’t describe God since by definition math is two levels of creation below God. The most math can do is approximate the behavior of the observable universe. Math involves forms or ideals that do not exist in nature. This is the fundamental Plato (forms/ideals) v. Aristotle (facts/senses) dichotomy.
 
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Ok, thank you @tafan2! I did not know that. The pple I’ve been talking to seem to think everything is a fractal. So I granted it (I know nothing about Math) but made an exception for realities that seem to me things that don’t lend themselves easily to mathematical descriptions, like life itself, consciousness, will/freedom, Godhood.
 
To be precise, you can’t use fractals as a means of modeling everything, but if metaphysics is correct, then you can use mathematics to model everything, including God.
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How can you model the ineffable and incomprehensible? I remember learning very clearly that you can know THAT God is but not WHAT God is; apart from direct experience in the beatific vision (which is STILL not comprehensible to a created mind, even an angelic mind). St. Thomas clearly taught that we know God only in the sense of him being “other”, i.e. We know what he is not; not what he is. So all my instincts tell me you must be wrong. There are things that transcend logic, God most of all, and Math is just a form of logic. We are not God the Word so that we might claim to apprehend the Father as he is; and we cannot contain the divinity in our little formulas; sorry.

In addition, the Church teaches we need more than reason; we need also revelation and faith to come to true/full knowledge; of ourselves, the universe, but most of all, of God. So your statement, as you’ve put it, seems highly contradictory to the heart of the incarnation.
 
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