Is Logic from God or from Man?

[Kay_Cee]

I recently posted an argument in the thread entitled “Why doesn’t the Bible say that Mary was sinless?” refuting another poster’s idea that beliefs must be specifically stated in the Bible in order for them to be worthy of belief. I included this syllogism summing up the other poster’s argument:

Major premise: Beliefs must be specifically stated in the Bible to be worthy of belief.
Minor premise: The Bible does not specifically state that Mary was sinless.
Conclusion: Therefore, it is not true that Mary was sinless**.**

I took exception to the major premise since I find it self-refuting. (The Bible does not state the idea that beliefs must be specifically stated in the Bible in order to be worthy of belief.)

In response, the other poster said: "I’m interested in what God actually says about Mary; for me it’s an issue of “Gods truth in His written Word” and not “mans logic”.

I want to respond to this, but the thread was locked by the time I got back to it.

What I would like to discuss is this idea of “man’s logic.” It seems to me logic comes from God. After all, we didn’t invent the law of non-contradiction; we discovered it. And, if I can’t use logic to discuss the Bible and theology, what’s left? Why should I pay attention to any argument the other poster made when I can’t test it against logic?

Please Note: This thread is not about Mary. This thread is about where logic comes from: God or man. Please restrict your discussion to that.

You can read the original thread here:forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=232601&page=64

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

I would clearly think logic is from God.

The Bible is nothing more than manmade, Holy Spirit inspired record of God’s words and actions. It is like saying a glass quenches your thirst when in fact it just contains the water that quenches your thirst. God logically started a Church, not a Bible subject to 50,000 different interpetations. To take a verse out of context without the Church to interpet it is clearly illogical.

Man, while he can be logical to a certain degree, did not invent logic. But also, can you be logically without truth? God is truth and in him is no lie, no corruption, no deceit, no evil. Logic without these things is not really logical.

 

[Michael96]

And, if I can’t use logic to discuss the Bible and theology, what’s left? Why should I pay attention to any argument the other poster made when I can’t test it against logic

Logic is certainly powerful; and yet is sometimes insufficient (not wrong; just insufficient). A lot of mathematics rests on axioms that cannot be proved by logic or by other mathematics; they simply need to be accepted. A couple of examples are Newton’s Principia Mathematica which rests on three axioms, and Euclidean geometry which rests on five axioms. The axioms seem so obvious (once pointed out) that they *appear *logical and yet actually resist logical proof.

Another completely different area that logic doesn’t help too much with is culture, and how culture affects our interpretation of the world around us. Culture, from my experience, drives many of the differences between Catholics and Protestants (I don’t believe one group is brighter or more logical than the other). “Indoctrination”, I would say is a cultural influence that affects all of us; it’s very hard (I’d say impossible) to make yourself totally neutral and test anything new in a totally objective fashion.

So I would say don’t dismiss arguements that aren’t testable by logic. Logic is useful, but it’s not the only way we test the world around us. Having said that, I don’t see logic as a creation (either by God or man) per se, but rather a process of understanding the patterns and relationships we come across.

 

[emeraldisle]

In response, the other poster said: "I’m interested in what God actually says about Mary; for me it’s an issue of “Gods truth in His written Word” and not “mans logic”.

I want to respond to this, but the thread was locked by the time I got back to it.

What I would like to discuss is this idea of “man’s logic.” It seems to me logic comes from God. After all, we didn’t invent the law of non-contradiction; we discovered it. And, if I can’t use logic to discuss the Bible and theology, what’s left? Why should I pay attention to any argument the other poster made when I can’t test it against logic?

Of course it’s ok for people to use the grey matter that God has given them but what they think/understand is subject to what their creator has said in His written Word. Gods Truth in His written Word always reigns supreme over mans logic.

Remember there are lots of very intelligent people using “mans logic” to try and disprove the fact that their creator exists.

*Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1 Cor 1:20-25
*

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[bookgirl32]

Of course it’s ok for people to use the grey matter that God has given them but what they think/understand is subject to what their creator has said in His written Word. Gods Truth in His written Word always reigns supreme over mans logic.

She’s not arguing which should be supreme over the other, she’s arguing that God created logic, so therefore scripture IS logical, and logic can be used to study it.

It takes a little more thought than just trying or not trying to find a proof-text, which was not the purpose of the Bible in the first place. The Bible is a complex book, not just a list of “what is, what isn’t”, or “what you can do”, “what you can’t do”. It can be used as reference, but it is not reference in and of itself. It’s much more than that.

Remember there are lots of very intelligent people using “mans logic” to try and disprove the fact that their creator exists.

Actually, they’re using logic as God created it. That they’re not open to the correct conclusion does not mean that they’re not using logic. I wouldn’t see it as them using their own logic, I would see it as them MISusing God’s logic. Logic isn’t subjective.

Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1 Cor 1:20-25

So, no scripture mentioned, only “preaching” mentioned, along with a warning of limiting the wisdom of God to human understanding. Not really a proof-text for a “sola or solo scriptura” belief.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

If logic leads to logic’s author it is from God. If it leads no where it is of man. Logic is more than mere calculation. As Peter Kreeft wittingly states, “We are not simply calculators place on top of monkeys. We are human beings with all the the traits that make us the image of God.” Logic is from Logos meaning Word or Reason or Jesus Christ.

CDL

 

[Kay_Cee]

Of course it’s ok for people to use the grey matter that God has given them but what they think/understand is subject to what their creator has said in His written Word. Gods Truth in His written Word always reigns supreme over mans logic.

Remember there are lots of very intelligent people using “mans logic” to try and disprove the fact that their creator exists.

Would you please define “man’s logic”? What, exactly, is that? Would you please explain how you think I used “man’s logic” in my argument?

And, while you’re at it, would you please explain* upon what basis I should accept your idea* that beliefs must be specifically stated in the Bible? Does God tell us anywhere in the Bible that that is the method we should use when trying to determine truth from the Bible? If so, please cite book, chapter, and verse. If not, where did you get this idea?

 

[expectthebest]

I don’t understand the usefulness of the debate of man’s logic. Really, a Catholic does not need to think or use logic at all. He must only follow what the Church says is logic. Right? If there is nothing to figure out, why waste your time trying to find logic in something that has already been inafllibly defined?

I’m being a bit sarchastic but I think my point is clear. It doesn’t matter if a Catholic has the ability to think or not. If fact, a thinking Catholic can get himself into trouble especially if thinking brings him to a different conclusion than what the Church says is the proper conclusion. Therefore, just accept it and get on. Make sense?

 

[emeraldisle]

She’s not arguing which should be supreme over the other, she’s arguing that God created logic, so therefore scripture IS logical, and logic can be used to study it.

Please note what I actually said;

“Emeraldisle”
Of course it’s ok for people to use the grey matter that God has given them but what they think/understand is subject to what their creator has said in His written Word. Gods Truth in His written Word always reigns supreme over mans logic.

bookgirl32
The Bible is a complex book, not just a list of “what is, what isn’t”, or “what you can do”, “what you can’t do”. It can be used as reference, but it is not reference in and of itself. It’s much more than that.

The Bible is the all-knowing Gods written Word and His Truth is in His written Word.

So, no scripture mentioned, only “preaching” mentioned, along with a warning of limiting the wisdom of God to human understanding. Not really a proof-text for a “sola or solo scriptura” belief.

Of course the following words are Scripture, they are Gods revealed Truth.

*Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1 Cor 1:20-25 *

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[bookgirl32]

I don’t understand the usefulness of the debate of man’s logic. Really, a Catholic does not need to think or use logic at all. He must only follow what the Church says is logic. Right? If there is nothing to figure out, why waste your time trying to find logic in something that has already been inafllibly defined?

I’m being a bit sarchastic but I think my point is clear. It doesn’t matter if a Catholic has the ability to think or not. If fact, a thinking Catholic can get himself into trouble especially if thinking brings him to a different conclusion than what the Church says is the proper conclusion. Therefore, just accept it and get on. Make sense?

Nope. I would say that most Protestants think that they are “figuring it out” themselves from reading the Bible on their own. Tell me then why do any of them attend a church? Don’t say that it’s just for fellowship and worship, because a good portion of the service is a sermon? Do you, then, ignore the sermon because it would be relieving you of “figuring out yourself” if you listened?

Obeying an authority is not the same as being a robot. It’s just like Adam and Eve, God gave them ONE command, period. They had one infallible command straight from the mouth of God. It took their thinking and logic to process what satan tempted them with, it took their own choice, from their own intellect, to commit sin. It would have taken the same to decide NOT to commit sin. Catholics are sure of the authority of the Church, this does not relieve them from being a “thinking human” and applying their intellectualism in understanding this authority, and it’s reasonings.

Protestants do the exact same thing. They just limit the authority to the scriptures. They claim that the Holy Spirit leads them to the correct interpretation and instruction (most do). Catholics and Protestants argue on what is the authority, and how does the Holy Spirit teach. They are exactly the same on obeying this authority, and believing it, and not thinking (rightly) that they actually came up with any of it themselves. If “figuring out yourself” is your standard, you’re focusing only on your own human works, only on your own intellectualism, and only on your own authority. Faith IS hearing and believing, regardless of if your mind or emotions tell you differently. Logic is a gift from God to us so that we may understand this faith, because He wanted us to have free will, and to be able to choose Him.

 

[bookgirl32]

The Bible is the all-knowing Gods written Word and His Truth is in His written Word.

The Bible is NOT all-knowing, the Bible is NOT God. The Bible is NOT a person, or a being. The Bible is incapable of “knowing”. It is a tool of revelation, that contains truth, and everything in it is true. It is not the actual mind of God, and it never claims this.

 

[emeraldisle]

Would you please define “man’s logic”? What, exactly, is that?

Of course it’s ok for people to use the grey matter that God has given them but what they think/understand is subject to what their creator has said in His written Word. Gods Truth in His written Word always reigns supreme over mans logic.

Would you please explain how you think I used “man’s logic” in my argument?

You were using your “thinking/understanding” to try and counteract Gods Truth as revealed in His written Word.

And, while you’re at it, would you please explain* upon what basis* I should accept your idea that beliefs must be specifically stated in the Bible? Does God tell us anywhere in the Bible that that is the method we should use when trying to determine truth from the Bible? If so, please cite book, chapter, and verse. If not, where did you get this idea?

I’m not presenting my idea; I’m presenting what God has said in His written Word, its His Truth not my ideas.

Also when the Lord Jesus when tempted by satan what did He use? Of course He used Gods written Word (Matt 4), so this shows us how awesome Gods written Word is and I make no apology for using it to present His Truth.

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[bookgirl32]

Of course it’s ok for people to use the grey matter that God has given them but what they think/understand is subject to what their creator has said in His written Word. Gods Truth in His written Word always reigns supreme over mans logic.

And somewhere in the above statement is a definition of “man’s logic”? Um, didn’t see it.

You were using your “thinking/understanding” to try and counteract Gods Truth as revealed in His written Word.

What are you using to believe it, then? A computer? Something outside of your brain?

And I take issue with you accusing her of “trying to counteract God’s Truth”. I don’t see you as doing this, and I don’t agree with you on sola scriptura. I don’t see anything you say as willfuly trying to counteract God’s truth, just because I think you don’t understand it, and have come to the wrong conclusions. The Bible does not give you room to judge, in fact it tells you not to.

I’m not presenting my idea; I’m presenting what God has said in His written Word, its His Truth not my ideas.

I’m presenting the Truth that God has given His Church and that the Church has communicated through Scripture and Tradition. Please prove to me from scripture that this isn’t what you should be doing?

Also when the Lord Jesus when tempted by satan what did He use? Of course He used Gods written Word (Matt 4), so this shows us how awesome Gods written Word is and I make no apology for using it to present His Truth.

What did He use to what? If you’re implying that the Bible was what made Jesus not sin, you’re incorrect. His free will as a human being was what He used to avoid sin. I think God’s written word shows us how awesome GOD IS, and not the other way around.

 

[expectthebest]

Nope. I would say that most Protestants think that they are “figuring it out” themselves from reading the Bible on their own. Tell me then why do any of them attend a church? Don’t say that it’s just for fellowship and worship, because a good portion of the service is a sermon? Do you, then, ignore the sermon because it would be relieving you of “figuring out yourself” if you listened?

Obeying an authority is not the same as being a robot. It’s just like Adam and Eve, God gave them ONE command, period. They had one infallible command straight from the mouth of God. It took their thinking and logic to process what satan tempted them with, it took their own choice, from their own intellect, to commit sin. It would have taken the same to decide NOT to commit sin. Catholics are sure of the authority of the Church, this does not relieve them from being a “thinking human” and applying their intellectualism in understanding this authority, and it’s reasonings.

Protestants do the exact same thing. They just limit the authority to the scriptures. They claim that the Holy Spirit leads them to the correct interpretation and instruction (most do). Catholics and Protestants argue on what is the authority, and how does the Holy Spirit teach. They are exactly the same on obeying this authority, and believing it, and not thinking (rightly) that they actually came up with any of it themselves. If “figuring out yourself” is your standard, you’re focusing only on your own human works, only on your own intellectualism, and only on your own authority. Faith IS hearing and believing, regardless of if your mind or emotions tell you differently. Logic is a gift from God to us so that we may understand this faith, because He wanted us to have free will, and to be able to choose Him.

I’m not arguing this from a protestant vs Catholic prospective. I’m simply saying that our logic as humans means nothing compared with what the Church tells us is the correct logic. Therefore, as individuals, using out own logic means absolutely nothing. In fact, it can be dangerous. Isn’t that what happened to Adam and Eve? They used their own logic and came up with a conclusion against God thus starting this whole thing.

By the way, everything the Church teaches is not even necessarily logical. The logic of humans cannot explain the divine. It’s beyond our reason. In fact, you could say that it is illogical for the finite to understand the infinite. Therfore, trying to udnerstand the logic of the Church could be considered futile in some instances.

As far as being a robot, no I don’t think we as humans are robots because we do have feeling and we do have choice. But, we must obey the teachings of the Church in a lock step robotic mannor or go to hell regardless of what our grey matter tells us. There is no in between. Now, one might feel more comfortable in his faith to try and learn why the Church teaches one thing or the other, but in the end it just doesn’t matter if it makes sense to that person or not. Our own logic means nothing. If we want salvation, we are slaves to the Church teaching which Cathloics would regard as one in the same as God’s teaching. Right?

The only way we can really use our own logic as individuals is to come up with logic which helps us understand the logic of the Church. This makes a lot of people feel better but don’t confuse it with actually thinking on our own. Trying to use logic to meet a preconceived end is illogical in of itself. There is no point other than to say it’s a feel good thing.

 

[bookgirl32]

I’m not arguing this from a protestant vs Catholic prospective. I’m simply saying that our logic as humans means nothing compared with what the Church tells us is the correct logic.

God created us in His image and likeness. Our logic as humans is actually modeled after Him. You are simply incorrect here.

Therefore, as individuals, using out own logic means absolutely nothing. In fact, it can be dangerous. Isn’t that what happened to Adam and Eve? They used their own logic and came up with a conclusion against God thus starting this whole thing.

No, Adam and Eve used their own logic, saw and understood what God meant, and DISOBEYED him. They knew very well what they were doing, they did not think that what they were doing was right. They did not think that what they did was justified until “God’s logic” showed up and surprised them. They hid from Him after they sinned.

For sin to be sin, you have to use your God-given logic and understand why it is a sin, and then willfuly disobey God regardless of the fact that you believe it to be correct.

By the way, everything the Church teaches is not even necessarily logical. The logic of humans cannot explain the divine. It’s beyond our reason. In fact, you could say that it is illogical for the finite to understand the infinite. Therfore, trying to udnerstand the logic of the Church could be considered futile in some instances.

Trying to understand the logic of the Church is never futile. It might not lead to you understanding, but if the act is done out of love for God and to know Him better, it is not futile. There are “mysteries” that we cannot fully understand, this does mean we cannot understand them at all, and are not under obligation to try to do so.

As far as being a robot, no I don’t think we as humans are robots because we do have feeling and we do have choice. But, we must obey the teachings of the Church in a lock step robotic mannor or go to hell regardless of what our grey matter tells us.

As I’ve stated above, this is not correct. Someone who does understand the Church teachings and fully agrees and believes would be sinning to willfuly disregard it. Many people leave the Church because they believe that what you state above is exactly what the Church teaches, and it isn’t. Their leaving is not what God wants, but it is not necessarily sinful because they are NOT understanding, and therefore not fully denying God. Does that make sense?

There is no in between. Now, one might feel more comfortable in his faith to try and learn why the Church teaches one thing or the other, but in the end it just doesn’t matter if it makes sense to that person or not.

It is exactly what matters. It is what allows the willful disregard and denial of God, which is what mortal sin is.

Our own logic means nothing. If we want salvation, we are slaves to the Church teaching which Cathloics would regard as one in the same as God’s teaching. Right?

No, completely wrong.

The only way we can really use our own logic as individuals is to come up with logic which helps us understand the logic of the Church.

You are the one being relativistic here. True logic is based on God’s truth, God’s truth is objective, and cannot be changed regardless of what we think or feel.

This makes a lot of people feel better but don’t confuse it with actually thinking on our own.

I’m not, you are.

Trying to use logic to meet a preconceived end is illogical in of itself. There is no point other than to say it’s a feel good thing.

I would say it’s a “feel good thing” to try to convince yourself that since you are not FULLY capable of understanding God, you have no responsibility to try. Relieving yourself of your God-given qualities that are in His own image and likeness is not actually making them go away, sorry.

 

[emeraldisle]

And I take issue with you accusing her of “trying to counteract God’s Truth”. I don’t see you as doing this, and I don’t agree with you on sola scriptura. I don’t see anything you say as willfuly trying to counteract God’s truth, just because I think you don’t understand it, and have come to the wrong conclusions. The Bible does not give you room to judge, in fact it tells you not to.

I’m presenting the Truth that God has given His Church and that the Church has communicated through Scripture and Tradition. Please prove to me from scripture that this isn’t what you should be doing?

The following statement is the context of my “mans logic” comments. It’s always helpful to see the context of ones comments.

“Emeraldisle”
I’ve simply pointed out the fact that God says in His written Word that all of humanity is sinful and Mary being a human being was a sinner. This is why God hasn’t stated in His written Word that Mary was sinless because to do so would mean that He would have contradicted Himself.

IMO the flawed reasoning is to go against what God says in His written Word. This is what tradition is doing when it says Mary was sinless but in fact God says in His written Word that Mary wasn’t sinless.

I’m interested in what God actually says about Mary; for me it’s an issue of “Gods truth in His written Word” and not “mans logic”.

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[emeraldisle]

What did He use to what? If you’re implying that the Bible was what made Jesus not sin, you’re incorrect. His free will as a human being was what He used to avoid sin. I think God’s written word shows us how awesome GOD IS, and not the other way around.

Yes I agree with you that Gods written Word tells us how awesome and majestic God is and the Lord Jesus’ use of Gods written Word to defeat satans temptations shows us how awesome Gods written Word is!

*1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’” 5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: ‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and, ‘ In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”

7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’” 8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”
Matt 4:1-10*

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[bookgirl32]

Yes I agree with you that Gods written Word tells us how awesome and majestic God is and the Lord Jesus’ use of Gods written Word to defeat satans temptations shows us how awesome Gods written Word is!

*1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

4 But He answered and said, “It is written*, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’” 5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: ‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and, ‘ In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”

7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’” 8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”
Matt 4:1-10

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The written word is not what defeated satan, JESUS defeated satan, the Bible merely recorded it. You’re bordering on giving the Bible God-like qualities, and the Bible is not God.

 

[emeraldisle]

The written word is not what defeated satan, JESUS defeated satan, the Bible merely recorded it. You’re bordering on giving the Bible God-like qualities, and the Bible is not God.

I agree with you that the Bible isn’t God, its Gods written Word. The Lord Jesus used Gods written Word to defeat the temptations of satan. This is a true fact and the following Scriptures show this true fact so clearly. Also isn’t interesting that the Lord Jesus didn’t use “mans logic” to defeat the temptation of satan, mind you the Lord Jesus could have defeated satans temptations by one word yet He used Gods written Word to defeat the temptations of satan.

*1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’” 5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: ‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and, ‘ In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”

7 Jesus said to him, "It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’” 8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”
Matt 4:1-10
*
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[Thing]

emeraldisle:

I agree with you that the Bible isn’t God, its Gods written Word. The Lord Jesus used Gods written Word to defeat the temptations of satan.

It is written; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.