Is lust a sin?

[Qoeleth]

The topic of lust is frequently discussed. I would like to raise some issue:

1. A lot of people these days seem intent on distinguishing ‘lust’ from ‘normal sexual desire’. However, the word ‘lust’, although it has come to have a bad connotation, actually simply means ‘desire’. To attempt to re-define it seems simply to be a case of trying to get rid of a position which people are no longer comfortable with.
2. The act of lust is identified with the transmission of original sin. We are concieved by lust (i.e. sexual desire), and therefore conceived in sin.

The implication that lust (i.e. sexual desire) is sinful is deeply unpopular TODAY- but in fact, that seems to be the traditional understanding. Indeed, St. Augustine says marriage was instituted to cure the sin of lust.

Do we need to encourage people to re-recognise lust as sinful, and therefore to make the choices of abstinence or celibacy, as the Bible recommends? If however, they cannot manage this, marriage can be used (as St. Augustine says) as a ‘remedy for lust.’

Have we gone to far in legitimizing the flesh, which draws the soul to earthly things, and the lusts of the flesh, which perpetuate original sin?

 

[zro_x]

I Think you’re on the right track here. Jesus, St. Paul, and St. Augustine make it pretty clear that marriage is meant for those too weak to remain abstinate their whole lives.

 

[JRKH]

Lust is defined by the Church differently than what you describe in your OP. The Catechism states:
2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes. (bolding mine)
So - in a discussion of lust being sinful, it is this definition that we must use.

Of course then the question shifts to what constitutes “disordered”, something that the catechism also addresses in various places but that the world, and even many Catholics, seem to have trouble accepting.

Peace
James

 

[JerryZ]

The topic of lust is frequently discussed. I would like to raise some issue:

1. A lot of people these days seem intent on distinguishing ‘lust’ from ‘normal sexual desire’. However, the word ‘lust’, although it has come to have a bad connotation, actually simply means ‘desire’. To attempt to re-define it seems simply to be a case of trying to get rid of a position which people are no longer comfortable with.
2. The act of lust is identified with the transmission of original sin. We are concieved by lust (i.e. sexual desire), and therefore conceived in sin.

The implication that lust (i.e. sexual desire) is sinful is deeply unpopular TODAY- but in fact, that seems to be the traditional understanding. Indeed, St. Augustine says marriage was instituted to cure the sin of lust.

Do we need to encourage people to re-recognise lust as sinful, and therefore to make the choices of abstinence or celibacy, as the Bible recommends? If however, they cannot manage this, marriage can be used (as St. Augustine says) as a ‘remedy for lust.’

Have we gone to far in legitimizing the flesh, which draws the soul to earthly things, and the lusts of the flesh, which perpetuate original sin?

Lust can ocurr even within a married couple if you make the other half just an object of sexual desire instead of recognizing the person and love in s(he).
Of course it can be more clearly defined when you make someone the object of sexual desire outside of marriage.
We humans are fallen and are prone to this sin, marriage indeed is supposed to curb it, but we need to be vigilant we do not fall to it.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

Lust is an act of the will. Attraction is not.

If I see an attractive woman, I am attracted to her. If I allow myself to give into that attraction and think about her sexually, that is lust and must be avoided.

This is how a person with SSA (Same Sex Attraction) can live in communion with the church. By not giving into lust, they remain chaste.

Watching pornography is a lustful activity.

Here’s what St John Vianney (patron saint of parish priests) said about lust:

acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2006/08/on-lust-by-st-john-vianney.html

Lust is the love of the pleasures that are contrary to purity.

No sins, my children, ruin and destroy a soul so quickly as this shameful sin; it snatches us out of the hands of the good God and hurls us like a stone into an abyss of mire and corruption. Once plunged in this mire, we cannot get out, we make a deeper hole in it every day, we sink lower and lower. Then we lose the faith, we laugh at the truths of religion, we no longer see Heaven, we do not fear Hell. O my children! how much are they to be pitied who give way to this passion! How wretched they are! Their soul, which was so beautiful, which attracted the eyes of the good God, over which He leant as one leans over a perfumed rose, has become like a rotten carcass, of which the pestilential door rises even to His throne. .

 

[on_the_hill]

1. The act of lust is identified with the transmission of original sin. We are concieved by lust (i.e. sexual desire), and therefore conceived in sin.

Thank goodness for lust, in that case. I’d much rather be here than not.

As for choosing celibacy and abstinence, ask the Ephrata Cloister how that worked out.

 

[wanabesaint]

Lust is a sin, as being undiciplined is a sin…
Young people are deceived today to the ruination of their Souls to Lust, and its pitfalls and dangers. example being, Premarital sex says its OK to be Undisciplined and to sin against not only your soul, but to that person you have sex with.

YOU, in effect for having commited such an act, premarital sex, have now both ruined your soul, and the soul to which you have acted with. Thats a powerfull recognition, that in doing so, you have ruined anothers soul, have in essence, done one of the greater of evils in.

IN Truth, being undiciplined and having premarital sex (act of lust) (adultry)recognizes its better to have a millstone tied to your kneck than to teach sin to one of my young children of God…
and to say that fires up people, because lots of children today have came to be by the act of lust, premarital sex. and they will interprite that to say, their parents are going to Hell,and then they are all nuts.

Their isnt much speculation to the decendents of Sodomon and Gamora to the issue of is Lust OK, thats a for sure.

 

[on_the_hill]

YOU, in effect for having commited such an act, premarital sex, have now both ruined your soul, and the soul to which you have acted with. Thats a powerfull recognition, that in doing so, you have ruined anothers soul, have in essence, done one of the greater of evils in.

I’m looking through the posts–which among them confessed to premarital sex?

 

[Lady_Love]

I think you should get your hands on “The Theology of the Body” by Christopher West. He covers all these issues and puts everything into it’s proper place and understanding.

Marital union and the conception of new life is so sacred and so holy that defiling it is a sin. Feelings of desire are not necessarily unholy but possibly just displaced. I highly recommend listening to the audio series. There are so many things that we can feel guilty for that are unnecessary and things we should feel guilty for that we don’t.

Please, please, please get your hands on the Theology of the Body.

 

[bilop]

The topic of lust is frequently discussed. I would like to raise some issue:

1. A lot of people these days seem intent on distinguishing ‘lust’ from ‘normal sexual desire’. However, the word ‘lust’, although it has come to have a bad connotation, actually simply means ‘desire’. To attempt to re-define it seems simply to be a case of trying to get rid of a position which people are no longer comfortable with.
2. The act of lust is identified with the transmission of original sin. We are concieved by lust (i.e. sexual desire), and therefore conceived in sin.

The implication that lust (i.e. sexual desire) is sinful is deeply unpopular TODAY- but in fact, that seems to be the traditional understanding. Indeed, St. Augustine says marriage was instituted to cure the sin of lust.

Do we need to encourage people to re-recognise lust as sinful, and therefore to make the choices of abstinence or celibacy, as the Bible recommends? If however, they cannot manage this, marriage can be used (as St. Augustine says) as a ‘remedy for lust.’

Have we gone to far in legitimizing the flesh, which draws the soul to earthly things, and the lusts of the flesh, which perpetuate original sin?

It is NOT Church teaching that sexual desire is sinful. Not everything that a great theologian says is the truth. St. Augustine was wrong on some things.

Original sin is the defiance of God, in eating from the tree of knowledge, not sex. Adam and Eve were permitted to have sex before the Fall.

God Bless

 

[zro_x]

It is NOT Church teaching that sexual desire is sinful. Not everything that a great theologian says is the truth. St. Augustine was wrong on some things.

Original sin is the defiance of God, in eating from the tree of knowledge, not sex. Adam and Eve were permitted to have sex before the Fall.

God Bless

How do you reconcile Church teaching with what St. Paul and Jesus had to say on the subject?

 

[bilop]

How do you reconcile Church teaching with what St. Paul and Jesus had to say on the subject?

Did you have a particular quote in mind?

Religious or clerical celibacy is a higher calling than married life, because they sacrifice a major good for the service of God. That does not mean sexual desire in marriage is sinful.

In fact, celivacy would not be a holy calling if they were merely giving up something sinful. The fact that they give up something good is what gives value to celibacy.

God Bless

 

[zro_x]

Did you have a particular quote in mind?

Religious or clerical celibacy is a higher calling than married life, because they sacrifice a major good for the service of God. That does not mean sexual desire in marriage is sinful.

God Bless

I don’t know exactly where it is in the bible, but at some point, both Jesus and St. Paul say something along these lines:

"a married man has his focus on earthly things. He wants to please his wife. likewise, a married woman wants to please her husband. A single man or woman, however, can have his focus on godly things.

If you can’t control yourself, then get married, for it is better to be married then on fire. But is better to remain unmarried."

this seems to show, as I said above, that marriage is intended only for those too weak to control themselves.

 

[bilop]

I don’t know exactly where it is in the bible, but at some point, both Jesus and St. Paul say something along these lines:

"a married man has his focus on earthly things. He wants to please his wife. likewise, a married woman wants to please her husband. A single man or woman, however, can have his focus on godly things.

If you can’t control yourself, then get married, for it is better to be married then on fire. But is better to remain unmarried."

this seems to show, as I said above, that marriage is intended only for those too weak to control themselves.

Do you mean First Corinthians, Ch. 7?

1] Now concerning the thing whereof you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. [2] But for fear of fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. [3] Let the husband render the debt to his wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband. [4] The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband. And in like manner the husband also hath not power of his own body, but the wife. [5] Defraud not one another, except, perhaps, by consent, for a time, that you may give yourselves to prayer; and return together again, lest Satan tempt you for your incontinency.

[6] But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment. [7**] For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that.

[8] But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I. [9] But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt. [1 Corinthians 7:9] [Latin] [10] But to them that are married, not I but the Lord commandeth, that the wife depart not from her husband.

St. Paul is saying celibacy is better, and that he wills that it was meant for everyone, but that is not the case. God’s will is for some to be celibate and some to marry. See bolded line.

God Bless

 

[zro_x]

Do you mean First Corinthians, Ch. 7?

St. Paul is saying celibacy is better, and that he wills that it was meant for everyone, but that is not the case. God’s will is for some to be celibate and some to marry. See bolded line.

God Bless

Maybe it is, but that doesn’t mean he originally intended it that way. I’m pretty sure Jesus says something along those lines in the gospels, in which he seems to be clear that it is best to remain unmarried. There is definately more than one point on in the bible where this is brought up. If this is true, we can imagine that god originally created adam and eve without sexual desire, so that their eyes would be turned to heaven instead of each other.

 

[bilop]

Maybe it is, but that doesn’t mean he originally intended it that way. I’m pretty sure Jesus says something along those lines in the gospels, in which he seems to be clear that it is best to remain unmarried. There is definately more than one point on in the bible where this is brought up. If this is true, we can imagine that god originally created adam and eve without sexual desire, so that their eyes would be turned to heaven instead of each other.

I am not aware of any statement against marriage by Christ. In St. Matthew Ch. 19, he makes a similar statement to St. Paul about celibacy being better, but not all are called to it:

[11] Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. [12] For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it. [13] Then were little children presented to him, that he should impose hands upon them and pray. And the disciples rebuked them. [14] But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such. [15] And when he had imposed hands upon them, he departed from thence.

*[11] All men take not this word: That is, all receive not the gift of living singly and chastely, unless they pray for the grace of God to enable them to live so, and for some it may be necessary to that end to fast as well as pray: and to those it is given from above.

[12] There are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs, for the kingdom of heaven: This text is not to be taken in the literal sense; but means, that there are such, who have taken a firm and commendable resolution of leading a single and chaste life, in order to serve God in a more perfect state than those who marry: as St. Paul clearly shews. 1 Cor. 7. 37, 38. *

Italics are notes in the DR Bible.

Adam and Eve were clearly created with sexual desire, as they were intended to reproduce. After the Fall, God tells eve she will bring forth children in sorrow. He’s adding pain to childbirth. If they weren’t capable of having children before, this would make no sense.

God Bless

 

[Ophelia23]

I have to confess… in reading the comments on this thread, I take offense to the idea that the vocational call to marriage is simply meant for the weak who are unable to “control” themselves. The vocation of Marriage is a Godly vocation, willed by the Father, consecrated by the Father, and witnessed by the Father. Saint Paul clearly states in his letter to the Corinthians that he wished all could have the same calling as him, but then appreciates that God has given other gifts and wills other things for other people.
THIS DOES NOT MEAN MARRIAGE IS SIMPLY A PROPER PLACE FOR THE SIN OF SEXUAL DESIRE. What a huge leap to take on that “theological” claim.

 

[Ophelia23]

For crying out loud, Christ’s first miracle was performed where? At a Wedding!!

 

[bilop]

For crying out loud, Christ’s first miracle was performed where? At a Wedding!!

Great point!

God Bless

 

[zro_x]

THIS DOES NOT MEAN MARRIAGE IS SIMPLY A PROPER PLACE FOR THE SIN OF SEXUAL DESIRE. What a huge leap to take on that “theological” claim.

I never made that claim. If some find it impossible to have self-control on these issues, getting married would not be a sin, because they would not be able to fight their urges. In order for an act to be a sin, there has to be some sort of willful action on the part of the sinner.

I looked at that area in corinthians, and yes, is is one of the areas I was thinking of. But there is more there than what was listed in this thread:

Corinthians 7: 8-9

Now, to the unmarried and to the widows I say that it would be better for you to continue to live alone as I do. But if you cannot restrain your desires, go ahead and marry. It is better to marry than to burn with passion

Corinthians 7:32-34

I would like you to be free from worry. An unmarried man concerns himself with the Lord’s work, because he is trying to please the lord. But a married man concerns himself with worldly matters, because he wants to please his wife; and so he is pulled in two directions. An unmarried woman or virgin concerns herself with the lord’s work, because whe wants to be dedicated both in body and spirit; but a married woman concerns herself with worldly matters, because she wants to please her husband.

verse 38

So the man who marries does well, but the man who doesn’t marry does even better.

apparently, marriage distracts people from god.

Adam and Eve were clearly created with sexual desire, as they were intended to reproduce. After the Fall, God tells eve she will bring forth children in sorrow. He’s adding pain to childbirth. If they weren’t capable of having children before, this would make no sense.

Perhaps that is true, in which case, marriage did not distract people from God during the time of adam and eve, but it does now that we’ve fallen.

For crying out loud, Christ’s first miracle was performed where? At a Wedding!!

What of it? Jesus also ate with the sinners and tax collectors. Marriage isn’t even a sin, Just a regrettable necessity in our fallen world.