Is lying always a sin?

[Seraphignatius]

Stealing is a sin. Lying is a sin.

Don’t complicate it with hypotheticals or venial/mortal conflations - that’s the evil one’s job.

Not my rules, but God’s.

Today, even this is controversial?

Come, Holy Spirit!

All things belong to God first, and are only at the disposal of man. If you take something unjustly you have committed the sin of theft, but their are just ways that things can be taken which aren’t theft. It isn’t theft when a judge orders property to be seized as a penalty or a reparation, and it isn’t theft when a man takes food for himself or his family if the alternative is starvation. (In your terms: if he needed it.)
See the Catechism of the Catholic Church 2401-2463 and especially 2408 quoted below:
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2408 The seventh commandment forbids theft, that is, usurping another’s property against the reasonable will of the owner. There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods. This is the case in obvious and urgent necessity when the only way to provide for immediate, essential needs (food, shelter, clothing . . .) is to put at one’s disposal and use the property of others.[190]

 

[Contarini]

Hello!
I had a big question on Catholicism… is lying always a sin?
I thought of a particular instance and I want to know if this lie is a sin:
It’s the middle of WWII and you live in Germany. The Nazis are going from house to house trying to find all the Jews. You heard about this and hid your friend (a Jew) in your attic. You are a highly trusted politician so when the Germans come by your house they trust your word in the answering of whether or not you are hiding any Jews. When you are asked by them you say no and they walk away.

I this a sin??? One would think God is more understanding then to punish you for doing what I believe to be a good deed.
Please help.
Thank you!
Put in your :twocents:

Catholic ethicists are divided on this issue. There was quite a debate a couple of years back sparked by the deception practiced by some prolife activists (they went underground and posed with false identities to entrap Planned Parenthood).

I was particularly impressed by the contribution of Christopher Tollefsen to that debate. Tollefsen addresses the “Nazi objection” in a way that I find compelling: don’t tell the Nazis anything, whether you have Jews in your house as not. Rather, defy them and take the consequences, partly in the hope of converting them. Read the whole piece–it’s eloquent and cogent.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Stealing is a sin. Lying is a sin.

Don’t complicate it with hypotheticals or venial/mortal conflations - that’s the evil one’s job.

Not my rules, but God’s.

Today, even this is controversial?

Come, Holy Spirit!

Are you kidding me? Pfft, yeah, I sure hope that the idea of surrendering innocent lives to a death squad for the sake of some Kantian consistency is controversial!

You’re talking about a situation in which you have the right to kill the intruders should they move to carry out their orders, right? So what you’re saying is that you can kill them but you can’t lie to them?

 

[marymary1975]

Stealing is a sin. Lying is a sin.

Don’t complicate it with hypotheticals or venial/mortal conflations - that’s the evil one’s job.

Not my rules, but God’s.

Today, even this is controversial?

Come, Holy Spirit!

They are sins but they are not grave matters. It seems you are confusing the idea if grave matters and sin

 

[Beryllos]

Are you kidding me? Pfft, yeah, I sure hope that the idea of surrendering innocent lives to a death squad for the sake of some Kantian consistency is controversial!

You’re talking about a situation in which you have the right to kill the intruders should they move to carry out their orders, right? So what you’re saying is that you can kill them but you can’t lie to them?

Most of us find ourselves tempted to lie in much less extreme circumstances. This discussion might be of much more practical value if we examined commonplace lies.

Your boss asks you what you have been working on at the office today. Matter of fact, you have been pricing air tickets and hotels for your upcoming vacation. What do you tell him?

Got your own favorite scenario?

 

[Seraphignatius]

Most of us find ourselves tempted to lie in much less extreme circumstances. This discussion might be of much more practical value if we examined commonplace lies.

Your boss asks you what you have been working on at the office today. Matter of fact, you have been pricing air tickets and hotels for your upcoming vacation. What do you tell him?

Got your own favorite scenario?

Presuming that I have time to reflect and decide to do the right thing, I would own up to it and propose he dock my wages, because I would be violating the seventh commandment otherwise. If I only had a split second, then I would like to hope I would do that, but I acknowledge the likelihood that I wouldn’t.

 

[MisterIncognito]

Hey guys!
Thanks for all the feedback!
I’m only 16 and I wanted to clear certain scenarios (like this one) up so that I can live a better life! Thank you guys so much… it means alot to me
MisterIncognito

 

[marylauravicuna]

Hello!
I had a big question on Catholicism… is lying always a sin?
I thought of a particular instance and I want to know if this lie is a sin:
It’s the middle of WWII and you live in Germany. The Nazis are going from house to house trying to find all the Jews. You heard about this and hid your friend (a Jew) in your attic. You are a highly trusted politician so when the Germans come by your house they trust your word in the answering of whether or not you are hiding any Jews. When you are asked by them you say no and they walk away.

I this a sin??? One would think God is more understanding then to punish you for doing what I believe to be a good deed.
Please help.
Thank you!
Put in your :twocents:

St. Augustine wrote the first extensive treatise on lying (De Mendacio). In it he cites the case of a holy bishop, Firmus of Thagasta, who wished to protect a man who had sought refuge with him. The bishop was so careful of the truth that, rather than lying to the imperial officers who pursued the fugitive, he told them frankly that he would not reveal the man’s location. Firmus maintained this resolve even under torture, with the result that he was eventually brought before the emperor himself. But the emperor was so impressed with the bishop’s virtue that he both praised the bishop and pardoned the fugitive.

Augustine tells this story to provide a saintly witness for his argument that lying is always morally wrong, regardless of the circumstances, and to note that God is perfectly capable of extricating from trouble those who stand fast in the truth. His treatise has been widely cited ever since, and his viewpoint was endorsed by no less saintly a scholar than Thomas Aquinas. In the monumental Summa Theologiae, Thomas states the same position: “Therefore it is not lawful to tell a lie in order to deliver another from any danger whatever. Nevertheless it is lawful to hide the truth prudently, by keeping it back, as Augustine says” (II:110:3).

But Augustine and Aquinas were both aware that even many good Christians disagreed with them. In fact, it seems likely that most people throughout history have held that not all falsehoods are morally evil. The issue has been debated intensely by moral theologians for well over 1500 years.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/is-lying-ever-right

 

[Bookcat]

Clearly, the lie is being told to save a life. According to all the passages cited before, it is not a sin.

Yes it is.

(As the Catechism teaches.)

 

[Bookcat]

(ok a bit more-- please follow closely)

Lying is an evil (no matter how small)

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned…

(and Paul said the idea that one could do evil for good was justly condemned in his letter to the Romans)

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm#III See the whole section there.

But - surely you can lie to protect someone? Surely the good intention makes it ok?

No that would not make it “good”.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. …

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm#II

Now please follow the rest closely.

It can be said though that one can use certain licit “mental reservations”…or “discreet language”. (see the CCC).

But what if one does not in that extreme example? One is put on the spot with that life or death request?

Now lets say one is in the very serious event of the Nazi at the door… and one can not find those discreet words…and others lives are at stake …and one thus ends up lying. What then? Well of course one should have found the other way. But in our weakness we sin …indeed we commit venial sins daily …hence they are called at times “daily sins” for which we pray daily “forgive us our trespasses”…and certainly ones culpability will likely be even further reduced by the event of the Nazi’s with the guns at your door…so ones venial sin will be reduced to an even smaller venial sin (if there is culpability at all)…which God in his knowing mercy can wipe away as one glances at the Crucifix with prayer after the Nazi’s leave…

God knows that in our seeking to live the varied virtues in our lives we will have venial sins in the process…that we being “saints” …being a new creation in Christ in the state of grace…in charity …living in Christ will still have “daily sins” to pray for (and work against daily). He loves us and continues to purify us with his love. (Not that such is an excuse to not seek to overcome our sins more and more in our lives …nor ought we seek or plan to lie in this case …but rather seek to find the right way).

Now all this does not make it “good” to lie. Or make it not a sin to lie (be it ever so slight). Nor does the ends in this circumstance “justify” the means of the lie.The end does not “justify” the means (see CCC etc) It remains a lie. A sin. But so too does the intemperance that one exhibited that morning at breakfast with too many eggs or the little anger one expressed at ones spouse that afternoon. If one falls here too…it will be another venial sin. Another weakness (I am not encouraging sin here --but it is a reality in daily life). Something that ought not have happened. That is: One ought to have found a good way.

But it is somewhat understandable that it may happen in such events of Nazi’s at the door… even to Christians. To saints.

And there is really no point in trying to argue too much about such……

(PS: perhaps one could argue that there is a different “object” involved-- (hence not be a lie–similar to where taking say food by a starving person may be not “theft” by reason of the object…the definition of theft being something different and the universal destination of goods being in effect etc --see CCC 2408–such is a change in the object --it is a different thing than theft)…but again I leave that to the professional theologians to argue out and to the Magisterium to decide scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm#I and scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a7.htm#II)

PS #2:

Catholic Answers Apologist’s answer – similar to mine: catholic.com/quickquestions/is-lying-a-sin-if-done-to-protect-someone-from-death

 

[Seraphignatius]

(ok a bit more-- please follow closely)

Lying is an evil (no matter how small)

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned…

(and Paul said the idea that one could do evil for good was justly condemned in his letter to the Romans)

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm#III See the whole section there.

But - surely you can lie to protect someone? Surely the good intention makes it ok?

No that would not make it “good”.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. …

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm#II

Now please follow the rest closely.

It can be said though that one can use certain licit “mental reservations”…or “discreet language”. (see the CCC).

But what if one does not in that extreme example? One is put on the spot with that life or death request?

Now lets say one is in the very serious event of the Nazi at the door… and one can not find those discreet words…and others lives are at stake …and one thus ends up lying. What then? Well of course one should have found the other way. But in our weakness we sin …indeed we commit venial sins daily …hence they are called at times “daily sins” for which we pray daily “forgive us our trespasses”…and certainly ones culpability will likely be even further reduced by the event of the Nazi’s with the guns at your door…so ones venial sin will be reduced to an even smaller venial sin (if there is culpability at all)…which God in his knowing mercy can wipe away as one glances at the Crucifix with prayer after the Nazi’s leave…

God knows that in our seeking to live the varied virtues in our lives we will have venial sins in the process…that we being “saints” …being a new creation in Christ in the state of grace…in charity …living in Christ will still have “daily sins” to pray for (and work against daily). He loves us and continues to purify us with his love. (Not that such is an excuse to not seek to overcome our sins more and more in our lives …nor ought we seek or plan to lie in this case …but rather seek to find the right way).

Now all this does not make it “good” to lie. Or make it not a sin to lie (be it ever so slight). Nor does the ends in this circumstance “justify” the means of the lie.The end does not “justify” the means (see CCC etc) It remains a lie. A sin. But so too does the intemperance that one exhibited that morning at breakfast with too many eggs or the little anger one expressed at ones spouse that afternoon. If one falls here too…it will be another venial sin. Another weakness (I am not encouraging sin here --but it is a reality in daily life). Something that ought not have happened. That is: One ought to have found a good way.

But it is somewhat understandable that it may happen in such events of Nazi’s at the door… even to Christians. To saints.

And there is really no point in trying to argue too much about such……

(PS: perhaps one could argue that there is a different “object” involved-- (hence not be a lie–similar to where taking say food by a starving person may be not “theft” by reason of the object…the definition of theft being something different and the universal destination of goods being in effect etc --see CCC 2408–such is a change in the object --it is a different thing than theft)…but again I leave that to the professional theologians to argue out and to the Magisterium to decide scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm#I and scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a7.htm#II)

PS #2:

Catholic Answers Apologist’s answer – similar to mine: catholic.com/quickquestions/is-lying-a-sin-if-done-to-protect-someone-from-death

Does telling an untruth always equate to lying? Could it not be similar to the difference between killing and murder? I have heard it advanced that not all people have a right to know all truths, and to tell them an untruth in such a case isn’t a lie.

 

[Bookcat]

Does telling an untruth always equate to lying? Could it not be similar to the difference between killing and murder? I have heard it advanced that not all people have a right to know all truths, and to tell them an untruth in such a case isn’t a lie.

That is what the last part there (the first PS) was about - that perhaps there could be something that is “not lying” (by definition) due to there being a change in the “moral object” -rather technical theological language (see the CCC etc). I do not say there is -but perhaps such could be argued. See what I noted about when certain taking is not “theft”. Such is not that a circumstance or intention made “theft” ok -but that it was not “theft” “by definition” as it where (my taking my friends book or eating his cookies -knowing he will not mind -is not theft)

 

[Bookcat]

(ok a bit more-- please follow closely)

Lying is an evil (no matter how small)

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned…

(and Paul said the idea that one could do evil for good was justly condemned in his letter to the Romans)

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm#III See the whole section there.

But - surely you can lie to protect someone? Surely the good intention makes it ok?

No that would not make it “good”.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. …

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm#II

Now please follow the rest closely.

It can be said though that one can use certain licit “mental reservations”…or “discreet language”. (see the CCC).

But what if one does not in that extreme example? One is put on the spot with that life or death request?

Now lets say one is in the very serious event of the Nazi at the door… and one can not find those discreet words…and others lives are at stake …and one thus ends up lying. What then? Well of course one should have found the other way. But in our weakness we sin …indeed we commit venial sins daily …hence they are called at times “daily sins” for which we pray daily “forgive us our trespasses”…and certainly ones culpability will likely be even further reduced by the event of the Nazi’s with the guns at your door…so ones venial sin will be reduced to an even smaller venial sin (if there is culpability at all)…which God in his knowing mercy can wipe away as one glances at the Crucifix with prayer after the Nazi’s leave…

God knows that in our seeking to live the varied virtues in our lives we will have venial sins in the process…that we being “saints” …being a new creation in Christ in the state of grace…in charity …living in Christ will still have “daily sins” to pray for (and work against daily). He loves us and continues to purify us with his love. (Not that such is an excuse to not seek to overcome our sins more and more in our lives …nor ought we seek or plan to lie in this case …but rather seek to find the right way).

Now all this does not make it “good” to lie. Or make it not a sin to lie (be it ever so slight). Nor does the ends in this circumstance “justify” the means of the lie.The end does not “justify” the means (see CCC etc) It remains a lie. A sin. But so too does the intemperance that one exhibited that morning at breakfast with too many eggs or the little anger one expressed at ones spouse that afternoon. If one falls here too…it will be another venial sin. Another weakness (I am not encouraging sin here --but it is a reality in daily life). Something that ought not have happened. That is: One ought to have found a good way.

But it is somewhat understandable that it may happen in such events of Nazi’s at the door… even to Christians. To saints.

And there is really no point in trying to argue too much about such……

(PS: perhaps one could argue that there is a different “object” involved-- (hence not be a lie–similar to where taking say food by a starving person may be not “theft” by reason of the object…the definition of theft being something different and the universal destination of goods being in effect etc --see CCC 2408–such is a change in the object --it is a different thing than theft)…but again I leave that to the professional theologians to argue out and to the Magisterium to decide scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm#I and scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a7.htm#II)

PS #2:

Catholic Answers Apologist’s answer – similar to mine: catholic.com/quickquestions/is-lying-a-sin-if-done-to-protect-someone-from-death