Is lying always a sin?

[MisterIncognito]

Hello!
I had a big question on Catholicism… is lying always a sin?
I thought of a particular instance and I want to know if this lie is a sin:
It’s the middle of WWII and you live in Germany. The Nazis are going from house to house trying to find all the Jews. You heard about this and hid your friend (a Jew) in your attic. You are a highly trusted politician so when the Germans come by your house they trust your word in the answering of whether or not you are hiding any Jews. When you are asked by them you say no and they walk away.

I this a sin??? One would think God is more understanding then to punish you for doing what I believe to be a good deed.
Please help.
Thank you!
Put in your :twocents:

 

[SuperLuigi]

Hello!
I had a big question on Catholicism… is lying always a sin?
I thought of a particular instance and I want to know if this lie is a sin:
It’s the middle of WWII and you live in Germany. The Nazis are going from house to house trying to find all the Jews. You heard about this and hid your friend (a Jew) in your attic. You are a highly trusted politician so when the Germans come by your house they trust your word in the answering of whether or not you are hiding any Jews. When you are asked by them you say no and they walk away.

I this a sin??? One would think God is more understanding then to punish you for doing what I believe to be a good deed.
Please help.
Thank you!
Put in your :twocents:

In Catholic teaching it is permissible to deceive the enemy during time of war.

 

[faithfulwannabe]

In this case, it is a good lie. There is an example in Old Testament in Joshua 2, where there is a prostitute who lie to save the lives of 2 Jews.

 

[po18guy]

If we remember who the liar and father of lies is, then it is easier to remember that lying is to embrace his methods and not God’s. That would be sinful, yes.

 

[MisterIncognito]

If we remember who the liar and father of lies is, then it is easier to remember that lying is to embrace his methods and not God’s. That would be sinful, yes.

Don’t you think God is more understanding than that?

 

[marymary1975]

I think that in order to be a sin there should be an intent to deceive. I think probably in the case mentioned on the OP it may not be sinful. I also can think of a more recent case, that woman in Florida pregnant that her labor started at 19 weeks. Given the pro abortion mentality she had to lie and say that her baby was further along in order to get medical care for her baby and to avoid a DC. Her baby survived but had she said she was 19 weeks probably doctors would have performed a DC. Being abortion a grave matter and that thus woman’s intent was to avoid an abortion I hardly think her “lie” can be considered a sin.

 

[MisterIncognito]

agreed mary

 

[po18guy]

Don’t you think God is more understanding than that?

He stands ready to forgive the sin of lying.

Say you steal from someone who has so many possessions that they will never know that you stole from them. And, what if you actually needed the item? Is stealing always a sin, despite the circumstances?

 

[JM3]

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P8K.HTM

2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."280 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."281

2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead into error someone who has the right to know the truth. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. the deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. the culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.

2487 Every offense committed against justice and truth entails the duty of reparation, even if its author has been forgiven. When it is impossible publicly to make reparation for a wrong, it must be made secretly. If someone who has suffered harm cannot be directly compensated, he must be given moral satisfaction in the name of charity. This duty of reparation also concerns offenses against another’s reputation. This reparation, moral and sometimes material, must be evaluated in terms of the extent of the damage inflicted. It obliges in conscience.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P8L.HTM

2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. the good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. the duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.282

 

[marymary1975]

po18guy;12of7482:

He stands ready to forgive the sin of lying.

Say you steal from someone who has so many possessions that they will nevercondit you stole from them. And, what if you actually needed the item? Is stealing always a sin, despite the circumstances?

Even in the case of stealing you need to fulfill certain conditions to be considered sinful. (Keep in mind lying and stealing are not grave matters). Stealing with the intent of depriving the owner or as a means to something ia sinful. But you cannot make a blank general statement regarding stealing because you have to look at mire factors. Intent, full knowledge, will to do. and particular conditions all play along when it comes to determine if a certain conduct is being sinful.

 

[Jerbear]

Hello!
I had a big question on Catholicism… is lying always a sin?
I thought of a particular instance and I want to know if this lie is a sin:
It’s the middle of WWII and you live in Germany. The Nazis are going from house to house trying to find all the Jews. You heard about this and hid your friend (a Jew) in your attic. You are a highly trusted politician so when the Germans come by your house they trust your word in the answering of whether or not you are hiding any Jews. When you are asked by them you say no and they walk away.

I this a sin??? One would think God is more understanding then to punish you for doing what I believe to be a good deed.
Please help.
Thank you!
Put in your :twocents:

I understand the example but I feel as if there was a Nazi politician who swore loyalty to the regime and they trusted him enough to take his word, they probably wouldn’t ask him if he was hiding Jews in the first place. Interesting fact, sorry I know it’s random but I thought it was super cool, but I recently found out that I am related to Oskar Schindler made famous by Schindler’s list. Good to have someone good in the family lol

I think you are looking at the idea of misleading people for a greater good. For example, a person goes to class and comes back and is in their bedroom. Someone comes into the apartment with a weapon and asks where the person is and the roommate says that whoever went to class. It’s not a lie because the person did indeed go to class but it is misleading. I took an ethics course in college where some saints, don’t remember who though unfortunately, thought it was never permissible while others thought it was permissible if it was to prevent someone from getting hurt or killed. Don’t know what the Catholic Church says on the issue exactly.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

If we remember who the liar and father of lies is, then it is easier to remember that lying is to embrace his methods and not God’s. That would be sinful, yes.

If it’s acceptable for a soldier to deceive an enemy in a time of war, then why would it not be acceptable to deceive someone to protect innocent life that is in immediate danger? That’s taking legalism to a dangerous extreme.

2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead into error someone who has the right to know the truth. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

Would the gestapo be entitled to the truth as to the whereabouts of their next victims? I think not.

 

[njlisa]

Clearly, the lie is being told to save a life. According to all the passages cited before, it is not a sin.

Have a great day!

 

[Seraphignatius]

He stands ready to forgive the sin of lying.

Say you steal from someone who has so many possessions that they will never know that you stole from them. And, what if you actually needed the item? Is stealing always a sin, despite the circumstances?

Universal destination of goods. If you needed the item it wasn’t a sin (or even properly stealing).

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Hello!
I had a big question on Catholicism… is lying always a sin?
I thought of a particular instance and I want to know if this lie is a sin:
It’s the middle of WWII and you live in Germany. The Nazis are going from house to house trying to find all the Jews. You heard about this and hid your friend (a Jew) in your attic. You are a highly trusted politician so when the Germans come by your house they trust your word in the answering of whether or not you are hiding any Jews. When you are asked by them you say no and they walk away.

I this a sin??? One would think God is more understanding then to punish you for doing what I believe to be a good deed.
Please help.
Thank you!
Put in your :twocents:

Opinions differ. Some say telling a direct lie is always a sin, others say that it is always violent but, like violence, can sometimes be justified. Personally, I lean towards the second.

 

[njlisa]

Here is an interesting article that gets into the finer points of the ethics of lying.

Is Lying Ever Right?

By: Jeffrey A. Mirus
*… In fact, it seems likely that most people throughout history have held that not all falsehoods are morally evil. The issue has been debated intensely by moral theologians for well over 1500 years. … *

catholic.com/magazine/articles/is-lying-ever-right

 

[tabycat]

Opinions differ. Some say telling a direct lie is always a sin, others say that it is always violent but, like violence, can sometimes be justified. Personally, I lean towards the second.

It is like a perent, or boss, tells you to lie; so, do you lie or disobey?

 

[Seraphignatius]

It is like a perent, or boss, tells you to lie; so, do you lie or disobey?

I don’t think that argument succeeds. You are never bound to obey illegitimate commands.If a parent or boss told you to help them commit murder then it would be wrong for you to obey, and if we were to beg the question and assume lying were evil, then the same could be said for orders to lie.

 

[Beryllos]

Here is an interesting article that gets into the finer points of the ethics of lying.

Is Lying Ever Right?

By: Jeffrey A. Mirus
*… In fact, it seems likely that most people throughout history have held that not all falsehoods are morally evil. The issue has been debated intensely by moral theologians for well over 1500 years. … *

catholic.com/magazine/articles/is-lying-ever-right

That is an awesome article!

I have followed this thread with both disappointment and alarm, since apparently we have no consensus, and many posts seem to go against the Catechism. I think this article leads us in the right direction. It doesn’t claim to have a final answer, but it may help the reader to better understand several of the standard arguments for and against the “necessary lie.”

 

[po18guy]

Stealing is a sin. Lying is a sin.

Don’t complicate it with hypotheticals or venial/mortal conflations - that’s the evil one’s job.

Not my rules, but God’s.

Today, even this is controversial?

Come, Holy Spirit!