Is magic in fiction wrong?

[angell1]

is wrong to have magic in fictional books or movies. i know it woulnd’t be good in real life but is it bad if it’s just in a make believe world that doesn’t exist. it’s not like magic is real anyways

also, why do some people have a problem with witches, dragons and vampires that are protrayed as not evil? just because they started out as antagonists doesn’t mean they all have to be like that

even in the bible, there is a bad snake and then God makes good use of a bronze snake, also, bad angels and good ones.

 

[Viki63]

If it were wrong to have magic in fiction, both Tolkien and C.S.Lewis would be in the wrong. There is both good and evil magic in the Narnia series, and of course The Lord of the Rings.
But it’s important that the good magic be portrayed as in line with the Source of good, as Aslan’s powers derive from his relationship with the Emperor-Over-Seas, who is clearly God. And Gandalf is one of the angel caste.
The trouble with real magic is that it tries to take authority over nature, which only God has. In the real world we can use prayer and we can use science, but we must not try to wrest power from God that he has not given us.

The problem with witches is that by definition they are in league with the enemy. That’s how they get their power. A good witch is a contradiction in terms. Padre Pio was able to bilocate because he was a saint, not a witch.
I don’t see any problem with dragons being good, perhaps. They’re just mythical creatures. Vampires are humanoids with a handicap, so I suppose they could be portrayed as good.
Just my opinion.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think some people have a problem with the traditionally “evil” entities (like dragons) being portrayed as good because they see it as an attempt to turn good and evil on their heads, which will lead people to confuse good for evil and evil for good. Michael D. O’Brien wrote a whole book about it (A Landscape with Dragons).

I guess I kind of waffle back and forth myself. I can see what they are getting at. The tendency to intentionally undermine certain traditional archetypes has become so in fashion that what would be truly surprising nowadays is to actually have an evil dragon, vampire, witch, etc. But, on the other hand, I can appreciate writers introducing a bit more subtlety to their characters. That makes them more relatable since we fallen human beings made in the image and likeness of God are capable of both much good and much evil.

Of course, I think that’s part of the problem some have. They think that dragons, vampires, witches, etc. are creatures that should not be related to but viewed more as stand-ins for the fallen angels. Again, I can see what they are getting at, but I’m not sure I buy into that completely.

 

[Razanir]

But it’s important that the good magic be portrayed as in line with the Source of good, as Aslan’s powers derive from his relationship with the Emperor-Over-Seas, who is clearly God. And Gandalf is one of the angel caste.

Or a morally neutral source of magic. Saidar and saidin in Wheel of Time are neither good nor evil. Of course, saidin was tainted by their universe’s equivalent of the Devil (who’s name is even the Arabic version of Satan, Shaitan). But it was still neutral. It just had the unpleasant side effect of driving any man insane who tried to wield it.

Vampires are humanoids with a handicap, so I suppose they could be portrayed as good.

Angel from Buffy. While the later seasons were, admittedly, a bit questionable (they started having more and more of the occult), the first few seasons were still good. And Angel was an interesting character because he was a vampire cursed to regain his soul. So part of his story was having to cope with his newly regained conscience and all the evil he had done as a vampire.

 

[mikekle]

Ive always believed REAL magic does exist, but it is something that has been lost to the ages, however that is not to say there isnt some out there who know about it and can practice it. I think real magic has to do more with using parts of our brain that we dont currently understand, kind of like flipping a switch on and off.

However, God warns us that magic is not to be used or practiced, so I dont think it matters whether its real or just portrayed in fiction, its still kind of glorifying it.

I read a police blotter awhile back about this guy they arrested somewhere in the UK in the mid 90s, he claimed he was an experienced wizard or something, he had a specific title for this, but I can recall what it was now, they put him in a cell, and there was jail video of him standing there, then his eyes started glowing red, and he was somehow able to slip his entire body thru the bars in the cell door, these bars were very close together, but he went right thru them!!! after that multiple cops rushed him and tased him, that was the end of the video, not sure what happened to him after, but Im guessing he knew REAL magic, so it does exist out there, just not widely known about.

Id imagine though there are certain books out there that can teach someone about this art form, but probably not something to mess with, as it would be hard to tell what you are actually doing.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I cannot possibly see how simply having the stories on record is wrong or sinful.

 

[Kamaduck]

I think some people have a problem with the traditionally “evil” entities (like dragons) being portrayed as good because they see it as an attempt to turn good and evil on their heads, which will lead people to confuse good for evil and evil for good. Michael D. O’Brien wrote a whole book about it (A Landscape with Dragons).

I guess I kind of waffle back and forth myself. I can see what they are getting at. The tendency to intentionally undermine certain traditional archetypes has become so in fashion that what would be truly surprising nowadays is to actually have an evil dragon, vampire, witch, etc. But, on the other hand, I can appreciate writers introducing a bit more subtlety to their characters. That makes them more relatable since we fallen human beings made in the image and likeness of God are capable of both much good and much evil.

Of course, I think that’s part of the problem some have. They think that dragons, vampires, witches, etc. are creatures that should not be related to but viewed more as stand-ins for the fallen angels. Again, I can see what they are getting at, but I’m not sure I buy into that completely.

I’m a big fan of dragons, monsters, etc. being given consideration and characterization other than “evil”. It just doesn’t sit right with me when “heroes” hack and slash their way through armies of orcs of goblins just because they’re orcs or goblins. This is especially true of those groups (moreso than dragons), because orcs are generally portrayed as humanoids who can speak, think, use tools, have societies, etc.

Basically, they’re *already *humans. In some settings they can even procreate with humans. And apparently, we know they’re evil because of their green/gray skin and tusks. I just don’t like the idea of condemning other humans to death because of an assumption based on their physical characteristics. If they’re human, then they can choose to be good, and we should give them that chance.

I’m more ambivalent about vampires, but I still prefer either making them mindless monsters (in which case I know they’re no longer human) or complicated creatures with some moral qualms (because a group of humans generally can’t be distilled down to just “evil”, even if they do drink blood). What’s important is that when they do commit evil (and vampires usually do), it’s seen as a flaw, rather than something to be glorified. In any case, we should judge them according to their actions, not based on the fact that they got bitten one day.

I’m really a sucker for stories about monsters (figurative or literal) who rebel against societal expectations and try their absolute best to be decent people, or even heroes. I think it’s a lot more relatable than stories about people who have always been good (or who everyone expected to be good), and it reminds me that humans are never beyond saving.

As far as the more general question about magic, I think it’s OK as long as the magic is obviously fictional. It’s OK if magic is sufficiently divorced from actual occult practices. As soon as it involves calling on demons or evil spirits, it’s crossed a line and should not be portrayed positively. If it’s just a natural part of the setting, either amoral or with varied alignments including good, then we have to judge it accordingly.

 

[Joe_5859]

I’m a big fan of dragons, monsters, etc. being given consideration and characterization other than “evil”. It just doesn’t sit right with me when “heroes” hack and slash their way through armies of orcs of goblins just because they’re orcs or goblins. This is especially true of those groups (moreso than dragons), because orcs are generally portrayed as humanoids who can speak, think, use tools, have societies, etc.

Basically, they’re *already *humans. In some settings they can even procreate with humans. And apparently, we know they’re evil because of their green/gray skin and tusks. I just don’t like the idea of condemning other humans to death because of an assumption based on their physical characteristics. If they’re human, then they can choose to be good, and we should give them that chance.

I’m more ambivalent about vampires, but I still prefer either making them mindless monsters (in which case I know they’re no longer human) or complicated creatures with some moral qualms (because a group of humans generally can’t be distilled down to just “evil”, even if they do drink blood). What’s important is that when they do commit evil (and vampires usually do), it’s seen as a flaw, rather than something to be glorified. In any case, we should judge them according to their actions, not based on the fact that they got bitten one day.

I’m really a sucker for stories about monsters (figurative or literal) who rebel against societal expectations and try their absolute best to be decent people, or even heroes. I think it’s a lot more relatable than stories about people who have always been good (or who everyone expected to be good), and it reminds me that humans are never beyond saving.

As far as the more general question about magic, I think it’s OK as long as the magic is obviously fictional. It’s OK if magic is sufficiently divorced from actual occult practices. As soon as it involves calling on demons or evil spirits, it’s crossed a line and should not be portrayed positively. If it’s just a natural part of the setting, either amoral or with varied alignments including good, then we have to judge it accordingly.

That’s an interesting observation about the armies of orcs. I never thought of it that way before.

 

[Razanir]

That’s an interesting observation about the armies of orcs. I never thought of it that way before.

Although what if the armies are just the particularly nasty ones? Maybe there really are some quite friendly orcs, and they’re just not the ones joining the army. I mean this is Sauron we’re talking about. You’d have to be at least somewhat evil to join that guy’s army, right?

 

[Joe_5859]

Although what if the armies are just the particularly nasty ones? Maybe there really are some quite friendly orcs, and they’re just not the ones joining the army. I mean this is Sauron we’re talking about. You’d have to be at least somewhat evil to join that guy’s army, right?

Touché.

 

[Kamaduck]

Although what if the armies are just the particularly nasty ones? Maybe there really are some quite friendly orcs, and they’re just not the ones joining the army. I mean this is Sauron we’re talking about. You’d have to be at least somewhat evil to join that guy’s army, right?

Well, LOTR is kind of a weird situation, given that Sauron and Sarumon are apparently the ones breeding the armies (I think? That might be Uruk-Hai specific, I’m not sure). I’m not sure Tolkien ever decided what the situation was with orc souls, or how much he wanted to humanize them.

But apparently the goblins have thier own societies indepenent of Sauron, so I suppose there are probably some perfectly nice goblins out there. Somewhere.

 

[LoveandMercy]

there is much more important things to be involved with or reading than things involving such a touchy subject - magic… Just my opinion I hope no one gets offended … I’m back

 

[Viki63]

there is much more important things to be involved with or reading than things involving such a touchy subject - magic… Just my opinion I hope no one gets offended … I’m back

True, but I for one find it hard to spend all day every day on serious subjects. I need some relaxation, so I read science fiction and fantasy on occasion. Many people do, so it’s a good idea to discuss the subject, because it can have an impact on people’s moral compass.
The Lord of the Rings has influenced many people for good, and it started out as a children’s fairy tale.

 

[UnumCorpus]

Although what if the armies are just the particularly nasty ones? Maybe there really are some quite friendly orcs, and they’re just not the ones joining the army. I mean this is Sauron we’re talking about. You’d have to be at least somewhat evil to join that guy’s army, right?

I actually don’t think it is possible for orcs to be good in Tolkien’s universe. According to The Silmarillion, orcs used to be Elves. They were originally Elves that were captured by Morgoth in the First Age and they were corrupted and tortured to such an extent that they became a different creature entirely. Their minds, bodies, and souls were corrupted. Here is a quote from The Silmarillion on the subject:

“Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor…were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes…This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar.”

Note: Morgoth = Melkor, Quendi = Elves

Just thought I should clarify.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

there is much more important things to be involved with or reading than things involving such a touchy subject - magic… Just my opinion I hope no one gets offended … I’m back

What’s so touchy about magic? All you need to do is point, cast, and enjoy the sight of a headless mook and the smoking stump of his neck.

It’s not rocket science!

Metamagic Theory on the other hand… (DM HOW IS THIS LEGAL AGAIN!!!)

 

[LoveandMercy]

Just gave my opinion the evidence is out there anyway I’ve gotta be careful what I say on here last time I got banned on a related topic I spoke out against! Where is the mercy from people hey?! Ha