Is Man good or evil?

[bogeydogg]

Right, because St. Augustine was in his time dealing with pelagianism which essentially said man on his own goodness could do good without God’s grace given to him first. That’s why as I’m sure you know, how St. Augustine used man being evil; he didn’t use it in the Calvinist sense, certainly NOT to the extent that John Calvin used it.

I agree and I have said before on this thread that I think Calvin and Luther misapplied the teachings of St. Augustine.

What you’ve described is essentially what Catholicism teaches.
I guess what I’m asking is what constitutes a “good?”

I believe that there is human, fleshly good, Calvin called it civil righteousness, and a genuine righteousness which is pleasing to God. That which pleases God can only be worked in us by His Spirit. It is not that we do nothing good. It is that our goodness is “filthy rags” and our only hope of pleasing God rests in His mercy in giving grace to us.

We agree that all good comes from God, correct?

Yes

So even though a pagan man does a “good” on a human level as Paul uses the “natural man”, still does a “good” just is not the type of good that is supernatural good.

Yes

Pagan man can do a good but it is NOT a supernatural good directly from God’s supernatural grace given after the fall.
But even the good he does is still a “good” in the lowest sense (for a lack of better words) but it is a good and even though it is the lowest type of good, that pagan man receieved the ability to even do that type of good from God (Rom 2:14-16) which I believe shows man essentially being good, because he was made good (Gen 1:29) and yet his nature is fallen because of the fall.

And in that it is a good “in the lowest sense” it is not pleasing to God. It is not that God looks on our good works and thumbs His nose at them, after all the Bible makes it clear that we are saved for good works. However, evangelism, prayer, supplication, intevention, offerings, charity, peace, mercy, love these things do not improve our standing before God but rather prove that we are His.
2Peter 1:5-10 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purgedfrom his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
The Apostle is saying, and plainly so, that our good works do not change our status before God, but rather they assure us and prove that we are His and are firmly in His hand. As I heard it put once, sanctification is a lifelong thank you to God for His work of mercy in salvation.

 

[Bishopite]

[bogeydogg;3005568]I agree and I have said before on this thread that I think Calvin and Luther misapplied the teachings of St. Augustine.

I agree. Calvin taught that God created some men with the manifest intention on sending them to hell. This is out of the Biblical picture not to mention a very extreme view.

I believe that there is human, fleshly good, Calvin called it civil righteousness, and a genuine righteousness which is pleasing to God. That which pleases God can only be worked in us by His Spirit. It is not that we do nothing good. It is that our goodness is “filthy rags” and our only hope of pleasing God rests in His mercy in giving grace to us.

Sure, but even that “civil righteousness” is a good, even though not a supernatural good; it IS still a good.

And in that it is a good “in the lowest sense” it is not pleasing to God.

Well, I’d disagree. It is pleasing to God because it is a good, but not a supernatural good, ergo not a good done in the convenant of Gods grace, therefore not a good that is the type which God sees as His own.

It is not that God looks on our good works and thumbs His nose at them, after all the Bible makes it clear that we are saved for good works.

Protestants often falsely fail to distiguish between our personal works (which are filthy rags and God doesn’t see them as the type of good which flows from His supernatural grace because they are done for selfish reasons not out of love) and good works done by God’s grace which God does approve of since they are His works in us done from His supernatural grace done out of love for God. Mt 25:34-46 explain the two differences.
Augstine said that when God crowns our good works, He is simply crowing His works in us.
And we are saved by grace through faith doing good works aka love/charity (Gal 5:6). These good works that are done from God’s grace. Rom 2:5-8 says we will even be judged by those good works, so how can it not be a requirement?
Good works are also mentioned in Col 3:24-25, 2 Cor 11:15,1 Peter 1:17, Rev 20:12-13 and other places in scripture.

However, evangelism, prayer, supplication, intevention, offerings, charity, peace, mercy, love these things do not improve our standing before God but rather prove that we are His

Well, sure they do. Justification is a process not a punctiliar event only. Abraham grew closer to God from Gen 12 where he was first justified by faith, to Gen 22 where he offered Isaac to be sacrificed by faith. Gal 3:18 says we “grow in grace” which means we receive more grace as we cooperate with God’s grace.

The Apostle is saying, and plainly so, that our good works do not change our status before God, but rather they assure us and prove that we are His and are firmly in His hand. As I heard it put once, sanctification is a lifelong thank you to God for His work of mercy in salvation.

Our good personal works don’t suffice before God.
Our good works done with God’s grace, for the love of God do change our status, they make us children of God, Mt 25:34-40 are those who did good for the love of God, the sheep.
Mt 25:41-46 are those who did some good things in this life, however, what they did was from personal works because they were done for their own personal glory and NOT for the love of God, hence they are the goats, the damned.

 

[Joyousguard]

I would suggest that if you have ever taken a toy from a small child you would see a reaction of murderous rage. I have a 3y.o. and a 5 y.o. and I am telling without shame that those two would kill me on the spot if they could when they are mad at me. The human animal wihout the restrictions of culture and training would be dangerous indeed. In fact, it the absence of restriction on wants and desire which makes the sociopaths which commit the most heinous of crimes in our society. I’m not saying that I think children are evil, I am saying that they are naturally selfish, criminal little things who exist only to please themselves and their desires of the passing moment.

True story: I couple had just had their second child, a baby girl. The bay was born with a mdecial problem that required some sort of blood transfusion. However, the child had such a unique blood type, the only one compatible was her 6 year old brother. The parents came before the brother and asked if he would be willing to give his blood to his sister. The boy thought it over for a minute, then a greed.

Right before the operation began the boy asked the doctor “Will it be painful when I die?” The doctor at first did not understand. Finally the doctor cam eto realize that this little boy thought that he was going to die in order to save his sister. This little boy no more then six, agreed to give up his life for his baby sister without hesitation. Now that’s something.

J

ames 2:10, For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

If I understand you correctly here, you are saying that a man is good if he is good more often than he is bad. On a human horizontal level then I can see how you would think that. Coincidentally, it is no suprise that most pagan (fictional) religions argue for judgment as a weighing of scales because this is how men judge each other. But I am not in the least concerned with what man thinks. Almighty God has declared that if we commit even one tiny little minor minute insignificant sin then we, according to His Law, are on par with murderers, rapists and Nazi’s. There is no special sin with God. Sin is sin period and no man may enter into the presence of God without his sins being covered and forgiven. Period.

If this were true, then all of us would be as guilty as Satan himself before confession. That right now since I have most likely committed an infraction against God since my last confession that I am on par with Satan himself or at the very least Hitler. All that I write, think, feel or do are the actions of a mass murderer.

If he seeks that rigteousness according to the Spirit of the living God then I would say he is a Christian. If he seeks it according to his own power alone then I would say he is a huamnist and a pagan and is lost no matter how much good he does.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Where ever Salvation occurs, the Catholic Church exists mysteriously. (See baptism of intent or Baptism of blood) I do believe that there is more to salvation and the actions of the unbaptized then what we see upon the surface. I think you would find many people who don’t believe in God, or are more or less undecided, who work for the greater good not for themselves but for others. Are they Christain as well?

If we view good as being good in the flesh then you are right. But being truly righteous and pleasing to God we have no hope in our own being because the nature of our being is fallen.

Simply because the nature of our being is fallen does not mean man cannot be good. It simply means that we do not possess all that we once had to aid our pursuit of the good, of righteousness or of God. A man can still build a house without the knowledge of calcullus. A man can still, even though he is unbaptized or does not know God, perform good deeds and indeed be a good man. However, he would not have the supernatural grace to help him so it would be much more difficult.

 

[Joyousguard]

Once again, it is the way which God sees us. If God is not holy not righteous or just then surely we can count on a sliding scale of judgment, but if God is Holy and righteous and just then we have a real problem, and I thank God that we have a advocate who can carry His righteousness before God and pray for me that I may stand before my God as His possesion and be declared righteous because of Him and not me. For if I or you or anyone else wants to stand before God on own, then we may rest assured that we will. However, when we do we will most certainly do so to our own destruction, we will face God and surely perish

.

Then those that came before Christ have perished. Moses was not baptized and was fallen, Abraham as well. They believed in God but without the grace given to us at baptism and the cleansing of Original sin they too must perish as well.

Abraham and most of those in the OT knew God but were unbaptized. What of those in ancient times who never knew of one God but rather believed, as most did, in many gods? What of them? What of all those who did not know God let alone Christ because of the pagan world in which they lived? Was it their fault they did not know God but rather that they believed in many gods?

 

[Joyousguard]

continued…
I could sit here an debate scripture or post seemingly contrary passages to what you have posted but I would rather approach it in a different manner.

There is something to be said of culpability. This is an Aquinas line of theological thinking. That man or mankind in general is responsible for mistakes, errors and sins on one level or another depending upon circumstances surrounding such actions.

A man who is blind is not as much at fault for knocking someone over as a man who sees perfectly fine. A man who has devoted his entire life to the study and pursuit of God is more culpabe for a theft than a child of 6.

If all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord then all of us before confession are truly as bad as the worst humanity has to offer. We are imperfect creatures and prone to sin and if the sin of lying is as grave as murder then we a shall all feel the hangman’s noose.

All sins may be equal in the eys of the Lord but that says nothing about their punishments. All sins are equal in the fact that they offend the Lord but that does not mean that he punishes all in the same manner.

 

[bogeydogg]

continued…
I could sit here an debate scripture or post seemingly contrary passages to what you have posted but I would rather approach it in a different manner.

There is something to be said of culpability. This is an Aquinas line of theological thinking. That man or mankind in general is responsible for mistakes, errors and sins on one level or another depending upon circumstances surrounding such actions.

A man who is blind is not as much at fault for knocking someone over as a man who sees perfectly fine. A man who has devoted his entire life to the study and pursuit of God is more culpabe for a theft than a child of 6.

If all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord then all of us before confession are truly as bad as the worst humanity has to offer. We are imperfect creatures and prone to sin and if the sin of lying is as grave as murder then we a shall all feel the hangman’s noose.

All sins may be equal in the eys of the Lord but that says nothing about their punishments. All sins are equal in the fact that they offend the Lord but that does not mean that he punishes all in the same manner.

I didn’t say all sin is the same before God. I said all sinners are in the same predicament before a holy God. Since God is holy and all men sin then there must be grace by which any man could be saved.

 

[bogeydogg]

Our good personal works don’t suffice before God.

Our good works done with God’s grace, for the love of God do change our status, they make us children of God, Mt 25:34-40 are those who did good for the love of God, the sheep.
Mt 25:41-46 are those who did some good things in this life, however, what they did was from personal works because they were done for their own personal glory and NOT for the love of God, hence they are the goats, the damned.

Yup.

 

[Canardmom85]

Gen 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.

1 Tim 4:4
For everything created by God is good,

The Catechism states " [Original Sin] is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence".