Is Mary A Co-Redeemer

[Justy90]

Hi, I have been doing searches on the Catholic Church and the Virgin Mary. I came across some articles about how Catholics are petitioning Pope Benedict XVI to make Mary the Co-redeemer. What does that mean and what do Catholics think about Mary and redeeming us along with Jesus?

Thanks for your answers.

Mary is a wonderful woman. She did many things including setting the greatest example of what a Christian is. She was chosen to be the Mother of God in the flesh. Her resounding YES to God totally changed the course of history. She is absolutely foremost of all the saints in Heaven. But, Jesus Christ alone is THE Redeemer of man. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life and nobody goes onto the Father except through me. Very clearly, Jesus is our one and only Redeemer.

 

[Ceil-1]

Excuse me, I misread the sentence. Mea culpa. I have difficulty reading the type. The devotion existed before Vatican II. Otherwise, believe you me, they wouldn’t be going for it.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hi, I have been doing searches on the Catholic Church and the Virgin Mary. I came across some articles about how Catholics are petitioning Pope Benedict XVI to make Mary the Co-redeemer. What does that mean and what do Catholics think about Mary and redeeming us along with Jesus?

Thanks for your answers.

She can redeem absolutely nothing - like all other human beings, it is she who needs redemption. It is blasphemous to set her or any other creature alongside Christ. Faith is in Christ - **not **in her. And a million miracles proving otherwise could not change that.​

I signed that petition, years ago, and I would cut off my hand if that would only bring this business to an end.

There is one good result of all this - it should make Protestants even less willing to unite with Rome, now that they have seen how far Rome is prepared to go in its glorification of a mere woman. Forty years ago, that tendency was less obvious - it looked as Rome was going to learn not to be so extravagant, and much more careful about expressing Marian ideas & practices that had little or no basis in the NT. I think it was JP2 who changed all that - so the CC has returned to its bad old habits, & Mary looks set to become a Trinity in herself, of Mother, Daughter, & Holy Spirit.

Goldlilocks and the Three Bears would be a very different story, if the baby bear & Goldilocks switched places. The gospels would be very different, if the beloved disciple was Judas and the betrayer was Peter. WW2 would have been very different, if the death camps had been in the USA, & Hitler had declared war on Japan.

IOW, stories cannot be varied in the telling beyond a certain point - beyond that point, they become entirely different stories; so that it ceases to be true that the story being told, is the one that the hearers thought was being told. A Gospel taking place on Mars, would be “Gospelly”, in its way and up to a point - but it would not be the same as the Gospel-story, for that took place on earth.

So here too: up to a point, attention to Mary is appropriate, even necessary; she is a Gospel character, after all. But after a certain point, if she gets attention of a certain kind, the result is that other elements in the Gospel, many of them more important than she is, are overshadowed or ignored; the story becomes a different story, and the Mary a different Mary. One no longer has the Christian Gospel. One sees something of this in Fundamentalism, Protestant & Catholic: the doctrine of inerrancy has assumed such gigantic importance that far more import things are ignored - the doctrine has become like a great fungus, swollen and bloated, so that far more important facts about the Bible, which the doctrine of inerrancy was meant to serve, have become invisible. Mariology is in a very similar state

 

[Good_Fella]

Huh

I believe it was St. Augustine who wrote "Mary conceived Jesus spiritually, before she conceived him physically by the power of the Holy Spirit. Hence, her Fiat.

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[Guyonthestreet]

She can redeem absolutely nothing - like all other human beings, it is she who needs redemption. It is blasphemous to set her or any other creature alongside Christ. Faith is in Christ - **not **in her. And a million miracles proving otherwise could not change that.​

I signed that petition, years ago, and I would cut off my hand if that would only bring this business to an end.

There is one good result of all this - it should make Protestants even less willing to unite with Rome, now that they have seen how far Rome is prepared to go in its glorification of a mere woman. Forty years ago, that tendency was less obvious - it looked as Rome was going to learn not to be so extravagant, and much more careful about expressing Marian ideas & practices that had little or no basis in the NT. I think it was JP2 who changed all that - so the CC has returned to its bad old habits, & Mary looks set to become a Trinity in herself, of Mother, Daughter, & Holy Spirit.

Goldlilocks and the Three Bears would be a very different story, if the baby bear & Goldilocks switched places. The gospels would be very different, if the beloved disciple was Judas and the betrayer was Peter. WW2 would have been very different, if the death camps had been in the USA, & Hitler had declared war on Japan.

IOW, stories cannot be varied in the telling beyond a certain point - beyond that point, they become entirely different stories; so that it ceases to be true that the story being told, is the one that the hearers thought was being told. A Gospel taking place on Mars, would be “Gospelly”, in its way and up to a point - but it would not be the same as the Gospel-story, for that took place on earth.

So here too: up to a point, attention to Mary is appropriate, even necessary; she is a Gospel character, after all. But after a certain point, if she gets attention of a certain kind, the result is that other elements in the Gospel, many of them more important than she is, are overshadowed or ignored; the story becomes a different story, and the Mary a different Mary. One no longer has the Christian Gospel. One sees something of this in Fundamentalism, Protestant & Catholic: the doctrine of inerrancy has assumed such gigantic importance that far more import things are ignored - the doctrine has become like a great fungus, swollen and bloated, so that far more important facts about the Bible, which the doctrine of inerrancy was meant to serve, have become invisible. Mariology is in a very similar state

I enjoy your posts.

It sometimes take two readings to get them, but when I get them, they’re good

 

[Guyonthestreet]

I believe it was St. Augustine who wrote "Mary conceived Jesus spiritually, before she conceived him physically by the power of the Holy Spirit. Hence, her Fiat.

Pax Christu :harp:

Ok, conceiving Jesus spiritually.

That’s completely new on me.

Can you explain that a bit more, and perhaps link to some reading I could do around it?

 

[John_Larocque]

Ah. Before we go further, that particular article links to a totally UNAPPROVED apparitions site.

Yep. So much of this comes from unapproved (or in some cases condemned Marian apparitions). Let us take note of this particular one:

catholicforum.com/saints/indexapp.htm
“1945 : Amsterdam, Holland (Ida Peerdeman; condemned by Bishop 7.5.56, confirmed by the Holy See Cardinal Pizzardo 13.3.57 (prot. N. 511/53)”

catholicplanet.com/CMA/delay-dogma.htm

1. There is currently only one theological position which predominates discussions of these titles for Mary, the position of Vox Populi and Dr. Mark Miravalle. Any dogmatic definition using these three titles for Mary would be seen as confirming that one theological position in all its specifics.

1. The titles of Mary as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix have become entangled with the claimed private revelations of Ida Peerdeman. Any dogmatic definition at this time would be seen as confirming that disreputable claimed private revelation.

1. Due to the influence of the claimed private revelation of Ida Peerdeman, this proposed dogma is believed by many to be the fifth and final Marian dogma. If it is defined at this time, the faithful would thereby conclude that there are no other fundamental doctrines about the Virgin Mary, and that the Magisterium will not or cannot define any further Marian dogmas. If, subsequently, the Magisterium were to define another Marian dogma, many of the faithful might refuse to believe it.

1. Due to the influence of the claimed private revelation of Ida Peerdeman, this proposed dogma is believed by many to be associated with the end times. Dr. Miravalle himself believes in the messages of Ida Peerdeman and has made apocalyptic references in his writings on this topic. Vox Populi clearly states on its site that we are living in the climax of the Age of Mary, and all that is left is this final dogma. There are a number of such references in the writings of Vox Populi and its supporters. If it is defined at this time, many of the faithful would conclude that the end is near.

1. Because this so-called proposed dogma is promoted as the fifth and final, if it is in fact the next Marian dogma to be defined, such a definition would confirm the very dubious claim that there have only been four other Marian dogmas in the history of the Church. (See my other article on this point.) The faithful would then consider other doctrines about Mary (such as her Dormition, her sinlessness, her perfect discipleship, her role as Mother of the Church, her role as Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and more) as of substantially lesser importance, since these would not be one of the supposed five sole Marian dogmas.

1. The Vox Populi position on these three true titles for Mary is a very detailed and extensive theological position. And it has been spread worldwide by Vox Populi with the constant claim that this is a dogma. Every page of the Vox Populi website calls this theological position ‘the dogma’ or ‘the fifth Marian dogma’ or other such terms. Even the faithful in general have long been referring to this idea with the word ‘dogma.’ So if ANY portion of this theological position is given a dogmatic definition at this time, the faithful would view this as confirming ALL that has been taught by Vox Populi worldwide under the name of a dogma. The effect would be to seem to hand over to Vox Populi the power of the Magisterium to define a teaching dogmatically.

Let me be very clear on this point, because it is of great importance. A specific theological position, with a core of truth, but with many dubious and, in my view, erroneous points, has been spread worldwide under one single term (i.e. the three titles for Mary) and with the repeated and emphatic claim that this is already a dogma. Therefore, if the Roman Pontiff were to proclaim these three titles as a dogma, with even a minimal definition, it would be viewed by almost all the faithful as confirming the entire theological position of Vox Populi. Even a most minimal definition would then become expanded immediately into, in effect, a proclamation of numerous theological points which were not defined, some of which are certainly inaccurate or erroneous, and some of which are derived solely from the claimed private revelation of Ida Peerdeman.

There’s a bit more here on “Our Lady of All Nations”:
unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/VaticanLadyofAllNations.htm
“This title and the prayer are the central point of the apparitions and since the Vatican has condemned this title it has in essence said that the apparitions cannot be from God.”

 

[John_Larocque]

Oh! This is gold!

unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/ArmyOfMary&Amsterdam.htm

Ida Peerdeman declares Giguere Reincarnation of Mary

The relationship of this false seer Marie Paule Giguere, to previously condemned seer Ida Peerdeman of Our Lady of All Nations, who is supported and propagated by Mark Miravalle in his campaign for a Co-redemtrix dogma, is shown below.

See Mark Miravalle website www.motherofallpeoples.com for his numerous articles on Our Lady of All Nations and her supposed request for a 5th Dogma� (Coredemptrix, Advocate, Mediatrix)

Interestingly enough, false seer Marie-Paule Giguere was supported by the popular but unapproved seer Ida Peerdeman of Our Lady of All Nations, whose case has been greatly confused by Bishop Punt. After being prohibited by several previous Bishops, current Bishop Punt recently approved a prayer and devotion to Our Lady of All Nations resulting from the alleged apparitions of seer Ida Peerdeman.

It is also interesting to note that Our Lady of All Nations via alleged seer Ida Peerdeman, is supported heavily by Mark Miravalle since she is the seer source of for his unending campaign for Vatican declaration for a Marian dogma of Co-Redeemer, the Mediator, the Advocate.

This is Ida Peerdemen on excommunicated “seer” Marie-Paule Giguere:
“Who is this woman? A second Catherine of Siena? A second Joan of Arc? Does Church history already know someone like her? We think she is unique. I even go as far as to assert that she is the INCARNATION of the Holy Virgin Mary. In an extraordinary way she is the Co-Redeemer, the Mediator, the Advocate, the Lady of all Nations.”

There’s a bit more here as well:
theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/amsterda/amsterd1.html

 

[Good_Fella]

Ok, conceiving Jesus spiritually.

That’s completely new on me.

Can you explain that a bit more, and perhaps link to some reading I could do around it?

Mary received Jesus in her heart by faith before she consented to be the mother of our Lord. Her faith working through love, and her complete confidence and trust in God, resulted in the physical conception of Jesus and the Incarnation of the Word. By her faith and love in and through Christ, and in collaboration with the plenitude of grace she had received upon her own conception, Mary merited the grace of salvation for us by accepting God’s will. By her fiat she chose to become the mother of God and our Redeemer. Mary’s free and active participation in the universal order of redemption grants her the God-given right to bear the title co-Redemptrix.
*
“The Almighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.”*
Luke 1, 49

PAX :harp:

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Mary received Jesus in her heart by faith before she consented to be the mother of our Lord. Her faith working through love, and her complete confidence and trust in God, resulted in the physical conception of Jesus and the Incarnation of the Word. By her faith and love in and through Christ, and in collaboration with the plenitude of grace she had received upon her own conception, Mary merited the grace of salvation for us by accepting God’s will. By her fiat she chose to become the mother of God and our Redeemer. Mary’s free and active participation in the universal order of redemption grants her the God-given right to bear the title co-Redemptrix.
*
“The Almighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.”*
Luke 1, 49

PAX :harp:

Thanks for that explatation.

Ive read and reread this thread a bunch of times.

And I still cannot understand the position that Mary is held in by catholicism.

All I can get my head around is She is the Mother of God, a Virgin, and most like was assumed into heaven. No problem with that. Why not.

Everything else is just too much.

I will always have the most heartfelt respect for Mary and speak her name with reverence.

But the person I need to be right with is Jesus.

If people want to believe that Mary can do xyz in bringing them closer to God then I have no problem with that.

But I have started to find that spending some quiet time in front of the tabernacle works just as well for me and contemplate on the word of God.

I hope this will not impede my progress in RCIA but my honest position right now is I most likely will hardly ever think about or pray to Mary, but when I do it will be with the greatest respect and reverence.

But no litanys, rosarys, chaplets or anything else.

Just not for me.

 

[Good_Fella]

Thanks for that explatation.

Ive read and reread this thread a bunch of times.

And I still cannot understand the position that Mary is held in by catholicism.

All I can get my head around is She is the Mother of God, a Virgin, and most like was assumed into heaven. No problem with that. Why not.

Everything else is just too much.

I will always have the most heartfelt respect for Mary and speak her name with reverence.

But the person I need to be right with is Jesus.

If people want to believe that Mary can do xyz in bringing them closer to God then I have no problem with that.

But I have started to find that spending some quiet time in front of the tabernacle works just as well for me and contemplate on the word of God.

I hope this will not impede my progress in RCIA but my honest position right now is I most likely will hardly ever think about or pray to Mary, but when I do it will be with the greatest respect and reverence.

But no litanys, rosarys, chaplets or anything else.

Just not for me.

You’re welcome, guy.

The Catholic Church infallibly teaches that all the graces we receive from Christ in our particular needs are dispensed through our Blessed Mother’s mediation. The graces we receive through the sacraments are indirectly channeled by Our Lady’s prayers which gain for us the proper disposition to receive the sacraments fruitfully. Though you may refrain from invoking our Mother of Mercy, she nonetheless knows all your spiritual needs and is praying for you in heaven to obtain for you the application of graces she had received while on earth. If you read the works of those saints who had a great devotion to Mary, you will find by reading their works they had the greatest personal devotion to our Lord Jesus Christ. This is because of the extraordinary graces they had received by Mary’s prayerful intercession. By reciting the Rosary faithfully on a daily basis, one’s salvation is virtually guaranteed. For it’s a tremendous medium of divine grace. Jesus never refuses his Mother anything, who in heaven beholding the Beatific Vision knows the divine intentions. Everything she asks for is in our Lord’s name and, like I said, she knows our true needs and sympathizes with us. Check out my post They Have No Wine at:
www.justinangel.st.blogs.com

Pax Christu :angel1:

 

[Carlan]

Thanks for that explatation.

Ive read and reread this thread a bunch of times.

And I still cannot understand the position that Mary is held in by catholicism.

All I can get my head around is She is the Mother of God, a Virgin, and most like was assumed into heaven. No problem with that. Why not.

Everything else is just too much.

I will always have the most heartfelt respect for Mary and speak her name with reverence.

But the person I need to be right with is Jesus.

If people want to believe that Mary can do xyz in bringing them closer to God then I have no problem with that.

But I have started to find that spending some quiet time in front of the tabernacle works just as well for me and contemplate on the word of God.

I hope this will not impede my progress in RCIA but my honest position right now is I most likely will hardly ever think about or pray to Mary, but when I do it will be with the greatest respect and reverence.

But no litanys, rosarys, chaplets or anything else.

Just not for me.

hello again Guy, I am so happy to know that you are doing RCIA.I,ve believed from the beginning reading your posts that you had the makings of a great Catholic.

 Dont't worry about your devotion to Mary, She will take care of you anyway. No litanys, rosarys , chaplets or anything else?  Remember that old saying now, 'Famous Last Words'. I'll be remembering you when I pray the rosary, God bless you:D Carlan

Some may say this is just a way of putting words, however, I can never say I am praying to Mary but rather that I am asking her to pray for me,as I am now asking her to pray for you Guy,

 

[Carlan]

You’re welcome, guy.

The Catholic Church infallibly teaches that all the graces we receive from Christ in our particular needs are dispensed through our Blessed Mother’s mediation. The graces we receive through the sacraments are indirectly channeled by Our Lady’s prayers which gain for us the proper disposition to receive the sacraments fruitfully. Though you may refrain from invoking our Mother of Mercy, she nonetheless knows all your spiritual needs and is praying for you in heaven to obtain for you the application of graces she had received while on earth. If you read the works of those saints who had a great devotion to Mary, you will find by reading their works they had the greatest personal devotion to our Lord Jesus Christ. This is because of the extraordinary graces they had received by Mary’s prayerful intercession. By reciting the Rosary faithfully on a daily basis, one’s salvation is virtually guaranteed. For it’s a tremendous medium of divine grace. Jesus never refuses his Mother anything, who in heaven beholding the Beatific Vision knows the divine intentions. Everything she asks for is in our Lord’s name and, like I said, she knows our true needs and sympathizes with us.

Wonderful post,Good Fella. Carlan

 

[Good_Fella]

She can redeem absolutely nothing - like all other human beings, it is she who needs redemption.​

Catholics believe Mary was redeemed at the first instant of her conception by being preserved free from the stain of original sin in anticipation of the merits of Christ. We do not deny she needed a saviour like every other human being. Her redemption was preservative, while ours is curative. In virtue of her fulness of grace, and her dignity as the Mother of God, Mary’s universal mediation in and through Christ is a prerogative granted her by divine decree. The graces she merits for us meanwhile rest on our Lord’s merits and depend entirely on them.

It is blasphemous to set her or any other creature alongside Christ. Faith is in Christ - **not **in her. And a million miracles proving otherwise could not change that.

Blamphemous? You forget that our Lord mediates in his sacred humanity, not in his divinity: as man, not as God.

I signed that petition, years ago, and I would cut off my hand if that would only bring this business to an end.

Ouch! uch:

There is one good result of all this - it should make Protestants even less willing to unite with Rome, now that they have seen how far Rome is prepared to go in its glorification of a mere woman.

“The Almighty has done great things for me.”
Luke 1, 49

Are you implying that Jesus was just a mere son of a woman? Mary’s universal mediatory role began at the moment she pronounced her Fiat.

“Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word.”
Luke 1, 38

Goldlilocks and the Three Bears would be a very different story, if the baby bear & Goldilocks switched places. The gospels would be very different, if the beloved disciple was Judas and the betrayer was Peter.

Wasn’t Jesus a baby lying in a manger? The gospels would certainly be different if Mary had betrayed her son or denied him three times. Sacred Tradition regarding Mary would be different, too.

“Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Luke 1, 45

IOW, stories cannot be varied in the telling beyond a certain point - beyond that point, they become entirely different stories; so that it ceases to be true that the story being told, is the one that the hearers thought was being told… up to a point, attention to Mary is appropriate, even necessary; she is a Gospel character, after all. But after a certain point, if she gets attention of a certain kind, the result is that other elements in the Gospel, many of them more important than she is, are overshadowed or ignored; the story becomes a different story, and the Mary a different Mary. One no longer has the Christian Gospel.

Mary becomes a different Mary and not the Mary of the Scriptures once we divorce the Scriptures from Apostolic Tradition.

One sees something of this in Fundamentalism, Protestant & Catholic: the doctrine of inerrancy has assumed such gigantic importance that far more import things are ignored - the doctrine has become like a great fungus, swollen and bloated, so that far more important facts about the Bible, which the doctrine of inerrancy was meant to serve, have become invisible. Mariology is in a very similar state

“The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.”
1 Timothy 3, 15

:yup:

PAX :harp:

 

[Justy90]

I am afraid that none of that justifies the premise that she is the bullet train to Jesus. Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit NOT his mother back to guide us to him. This is probably why Paul and others never mentioned it. The bullet train to Jesus is Jesus.

 

[Justy90]

Thanks for that explatation.

Ive read and reread this thread a bunch of times.

And I still cannot understand the position that Mary is held in by catholicism.

All I can get my head around is She is the Mother of God, a Virgin, and most like was assumed into heaven. No problem with that. Why not.

Everything else is just too much.

Now you might understand why the Scriptures paint a totally different picture concerning Mary than does Catholic theology. If the Catholic church gave us the Bible and the Bible hasn’t changed since its inception, then guess what? Someone has.

 

[Good_Fella]

I see where you are going so show me where Paul, Peter, James, or Jude says to go through a Saint to get to Jesus. That certainly must be an important doctrine related to salvation.

PS I have not problem with your asking deceased people to pray for you (Communion of Saints) but this is FAR different from Mary Co Redeemer or Mary Co Remdeptrix or Mary “bullet train to Jesus” (to quote the one poster) or saying going through Mary is going directly to Jesus. ** Where is that scripturally supported?** Where is the epistles is that key method of expediting getting to Jesus mentioned by Paul (apostle to the Gentiles).

“And you yourself a sword will pierce, so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Luke 2, 35

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church.
Colossians 1, 24

“And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the child in my womb leaped for joy.”
Luke 1, 44

As the ark of the Lord was entering the City of David, Saul’s daughter Michal looked down through the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, and she despised him in her heart.
2 Samuel 6, 16

When the days were completed for their purification, according to the law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord, just as it is written in the law of the Lord: “Every male that opens the womb shall be consecrated to the Lord.”
Luke 2, 22-23

“And in your descendants all the nations of the earth shall find blessing – all this because you obeyed my command.”
Genesis 22, 18

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[RevDrNorth]

“And you yourself a sword will pierce, so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Luke 2, 35

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church.
Colossians 1, 24

“And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the child in my womb leaped for joy.”
Luke 1, 44

As the ark of the Lord was entering the City of David, Saul’s daughter Michal looked down through the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, and she despised him in her heart.
2 Samuel 6, 16

When the days were completed for their purification, according to the law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord, just as it is written in the law of the Lord: “Every male that opens the womb shall be consecrated to the Lord.”
Luke 2, 22-23

“And in your descendants all the nations of the earth shall find blessing – all this because you obeyed my command.”
Genesis 22, 18

Pax Christu :harp:

None of those demonstrate that the apostles advised anyone to go through a Saint or Mary to get to Jesus. Mary was not that important or in scripture that important issue of going through Mary to Jesus would have been mentioned.

This is where RC doctrine occasionally falls short. It often has either no scriptural support or you wonder how they made that verse fit. This is not the case with all doctrines.

What one has to appreciate about Protestant theology is that it derives its support from the Word of God.

If you can show that the infallible Word of God tells me to go through Mary to get to Jesus as a “bullet train” ( as one RC put it here) or I guess the equivalent of “Fed Ex” I will. Where is the straight scriptural support for that position. Where???

 

[Good_Fella]

None of those demonstrate that the apostles advised anyone to go through a Saint or Mary to get to Jesus. Mary was not that important or in scripture that important issue of going through Mary to Jesus would have been mentioned.

Not that important? Are you serious? When the appointed time arrived, St. Paul writes to the Galatians, God sent his Son “made of a woman”. No, Fiat, no Incarnation; no Incarnation, no Jesus; no Jesus, no redemption. The apostle writes to St.Timothy that “God desires all men to be saved”, but He has granted us the freedom to either accept or reject his offer of salvation won for us by Christ’s merits. Our Lord made the principal all-sufficient sacrifice for the expiation of our sins by dying on the cross and thereby restoring us to friendship with God. But Christ does not do it alone (Sola Christu) in that we have the freedom to actively participate in God’s plan of salvation, through divine grace or favour, to bring Christ to others by bearing witness, praying, and making sacrifices for the conversion of sinners. Mary’s free and active participation in collaboration with the work of the Holy Spirit helped redeem the world. Instrumentally she is a physical cause of the channeling of divine grace, for by her fiat she brought to the world the Source of all grace. We all have cause to leap for joy along with David and John who beheld the arks of the Covenants.

When Mary pronounced her *fiat *at the Annunciation and presented her infant Jesus in the temple, consecrating him to God in a spirit of faith worthy of Abraham, she knew that she would have to suffer spiritually for the sake of humankind. As a Jew, she was conversant with the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah. Meanwhile, God did not coerce Mary into consenting to become the mother of our Lord. She accepted the divine invitation in faith working through love, as St. Paul would put it. St. Luke affirms the traditional belief of the Judeo-Christians of his time that Mary’s involvement in the divine order of redemption was causative of our salvation, but in a secondary and dispositive manner. Our Lord’s death on the cross is causative in a primary and necessary way in accord with God’s redemptive plan. St. John concurs in his allegorical narrative of the wedding feast at Cana.

This is where RC doctrine occasionally falls short. It often has either no scriptural support or you wonder how they made that verse fit. This is not the case with all doctrines.

You fail to see the full light of divine revelation concerning Mary, since you read the Scriptures purely in a literal sense and expect everything to be revealed explicitly. The Protestant handicap. Try reading St. Luke and St. John in a more allegorical and anagogical way. The theme of Mary as the new Eve appears in their gospels, which is brought to fuller relief in the teachings of the 2nd century Church Fathers.

What one has to appreciate about Protestant theology is that it derives its support from the Word of God.

The Scriptures must be interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition by the Church heirarchy. Protestants are severed from the historic Christian faith and have no authentic apostolic mandate to preach the Word of God. The New Testament and the teachings of the Church Fathers show this to be true. History and common sense do as well. Sola Scriptura is unbiblical and the cause of a divided Protestant tradition.

If you can show that the infallible Word of God tells me to go through Mary to get to Jesus as a “bullet train” ( as one RC put it here) or I guess the equivalent of “Fed Ex” I will. Where is the straight scriptural support for that position. Where???

The angel Gabriel just suddenly vanished without further ado, like a speeding bullet, as soon as Mary freely consented to be the Mother of God, so that her Son would redeem us. God could have sent his Son without Mary’s collaboration with him as his “co-worker”, but he willed no other course. Haven’t you ever wondered why?

PAX :harp: