Is Mary A Co-Redeemer

[Tantum_ergo]

Why do we call Mary ‘ever blessed’ if her role is over, finished and done with? Does Scripture say that “He who is mighty has done great things for me” and what does that mean? Is Mary simply a ‘vessel’ or is she a mother–and if she is a mother, does her role as mother ‘cease’ upon her death?

 

[VARC]

Why do we call Mary ‘ever blessed’ if her role is over, finished and done with? Does Scripture say that “He who is mighty has done great things for me” and what does that mean? Is Mary simply a ‘vessel’ or is she a mother–and if she is a mother, does her role as mother ‘cease’ upon her death?

All those things are good and well but it is the mother of nonsequitors to assert that those things equate to her choosing who will be saved and who will not and that we should give her our souls.:nope:

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Why do we call Mary ‘ever blessed’ if her role is over, finished and done with? Does Scripture say that “He who is mighty has done great things for me” and what does that mean? Is Mary simply a ‘vessel’ or is she a mother–and if she is a mother, does her role as mother ‘cease’ upon her death?

No I understand that Mary is and always will be the Mother of God.

I dont understand how or why she would want our very souls devoted to her and not to her Son.

And I dont understand the leap from Mary giving birth to Jesus, to Mary dispensing all graces that come from Jesus, and even less so that She decides who gets what and not God the Father.

It sounds like hyperbole to me.

I really struggle with the position of Mary in the story of Salvation in catholicism, compared to the scriptures. I know catholics have more than just the scriptures, but Im not sure even the early church fathers claimed Mary dispensed all graces.

 

[Doxiemom]

I am gonna stick with Jesus.

I have no problem with Mary being the Immaculate Conception, because i can understand the need for her being undefiled flesh for our Lord Jesus Christ to have been made with her bloodline and never to have been tainted by sin.

I can even buy the Queen of Heaven title (even with it’s pagan roots) because the Hebrew people are the Bride of God the Father. It is a stretch, but it sorta makes sense.

I even pray the hail mary, time to time, when I really feel the need for extra intercessory prayer .

But this whole other business of co-redemptrix, co-redemer, is just plain wrong on so many levels.

 

[dzheremi]

I am really glad that I am not the only one who is really against this idea. Reading through Louis de Montfort’s treatise on “True Devotion” is really giving me heart trouble…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

But it isn’t a question of giving oneself to Mary INSTEAD of to Jesus. In giving ourselves to Jesus in Mary we are actually giving ourselves more completely to Jesus. More, not less.

The whole idea that consecration to Mary is in LIEU of consecration to Jesus completely misunderstands the purpose. It is not. The consecration is specifically for, and only for, Jesus. . .the way in which one becomes closest to Him is approaching Him through Mary. THROUGH Mary. Not stopping AT Mary and not going all the way to Jesus.

It’s as though our lives are various pathways to God. Some of us take a ‘round-about way’. Some walk away from Him for awhile and then turn back. Sometimes we go through deep valleys, or high mountains, in order to get to Him.

But going through Mary is like taking a direct, non-stop, bullet train to Jesus. No stops that divert you, no dillydalling, no wrong turns. The quickest, easiest and best way TO JESUS.

What is the end of the consecration? To be consecrated to JESUS.

Honestly you do have to read through the whole thing. It’s like cherry picking the Bible to take out various quotes ‘out of context’. I can pick out from the Bible the words “There is no God”. It’s in there all right, Psalm 14. Of course, the words right before are “the fool says in his heart:” Makes a LOT of difference to know the context, dontcha think?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

That’s why I think it is semi-comic, or semi-tragic, for a person to say, “Why not go directly to Jesus?” when I speak of going to Him through Mary. For in doing so, I am–repeat I AM–going directly to Jesus!

 

[Carlan]

Thank you for your reply. I asked this because as a protestant I am interested in Catholicism. I like the Catholic church. A couple of weeks ago my mom and I got into a fight about this. I wanted to hear what Catholics think about this. This petition does a lot of damage with Protestants. We think that you want Mary to save us to. I think that is blasphemy. Thank you for clearing this up for me.

rRuth, this is a rather l ong post and it doesn’t address the question 'Is Mary a co-redeemer? others here have done that very well and I’m sure there will be more answers to come.The following tells you why and just how much we Catholics love Mary.

MOTHER OF GOD
]
*]Blessed are you, O Virgin Mary, who carried the Creator of the world in your womb; you gave birth to your Creator, remaining a virgin forever. (RM Mass BVM#2)

   1.”At the message of an angel, the Virgin Mary received the Word of God in her heart and in her body, and gave Life to the world. Hence she is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and Mother of the Redeemer” (LG53).Vatican2 thus presents  the figure of the Blessed Mother in synthesis. The divine maternity  is the source of all her privileges; all her greatness and glory and her very existence are only explained by her predestination to this high office.  If God had not decreed that the incarnation of his Son should take pl ace in the womb of a virgin, we should never have had that masterpiece of grace and loveliness, the most blessed Virgin;  we should never have had her smile or her maternal caresses. Therefore the Church teaches us to love and honor Mary because she is the Mother of God, the Mother of Jesus; and  loving her in her relation to God, our devotion to her only makes our love for God ,for Jesus, deeper and more tender.
   “Mother of God, Mother of our Creator,” we invoke her in the liturgy. These two titles which seem to be contradictory, actually express a unique synthesis because Mary, although a creature, is really the Mother of her Creator, the Mother of God’s Son to whom she has given a human  body: the fruit of her womb and of her blood. Here we understand more than ever how her dignity reached the threshold of the infinite. ”Because the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of God, she has a kind of infinite dignity which is derived from the infinite good, which is God” (St. Thos 1,25,6). We cannot imagine a higher dignity, for, except for Christ, no human creature has been united to God in so intimate and sublime a manner as Mary, who is his Mother. If anyone wonders why so little is said about Mary in the Gospel, St. Thomas of Villanova replies: “What more do you want? Is it not enough for you to know that she is the Mother of God?...It would have been sufficient to say, ‘Jesus was born to her’ “’.In fact, O Mary, all  I need to know in order to love you is that you are the Mother of my God.

  2. Although God, from all eternity, had predestined Mary to be the Mother of  his Son, he would not have her unaware of this, and so, when the time came for carrying out his plan, he asked the humble Virgin’s consent.  The Angel’s message revealed to Mary the sublime vocation which God had reserved for her: “Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus”(Lk 1:31). Mary asked and the Angel explained the mystery of the divine maternity which would take place in her, without prejudice to her virginity. What could God have asked that Mary would have refused? It was not the first time she gave up her own will for God’s: from the beginning of her existence, she had lived in the state of perfect union with God, and her chief characteristic was simply this full conformity of her human will with the divine will. That is why Mary gave her consent with all the love of her soul, said her fiat, accepted voluntarily, and voluntarily abandoned herself to God’s action. ”By  thus consenting to the divine utterance, Mary...became the Mother of Jesus, and embracing God’s saving will with a full heart...she devoted herself totally as a handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son” (LG56). From this moment the mystery was accomplished, and the Virgin Mary bore God present within her. The word of God  was present in her by the life

*]of the body which Mary communicated to her Son; he was present in her by the superabundance of supernatural life which the Son communicated to his Mother; between the Mother and the Son there was an exchange of life, an identity of affections, desires and sentiments which the heart of Christ implanted in the heart of Mary. No one could ever say more truly than Mary: “It is no longer I who live ,but Christ who lives in me”(Gal2:20).
Immense, marvelous mystery! And in the depths of this mystery we find the yes of a humble ,human creature. God has created man free, and that is why, although he wants to work great things in him, he will not do so without his consent. God wants to transform us by his grace and to sanctify us, but before he does so, he waits for our assent. When this Yes is complete and total, as Mary’s was, God will accomplish his work in us.

                 LG-----Dogmatic Constitution of the Church

From Divine Intimacy

*]With Carlan.
/

 

[RevDrNorth]

Hi, I have been doing searches on the Catholic Church and the Virgin Mary. I came across some articles about how Catholics are petitioning Pope Benedict XVI to make Mary the Co-redeemer. What does that mean and what do Catholics think about Mary and redeeming us along with Jesus?

Thanks for your answers.

I have heard some complicated gymnastics to try and justify it but it really does not hold true. Mary is NOT co redeemer. If the Pope speaks from the chair and makes it dogma then Roman Catholics will be obligated to accept it. It will be another irritant to the Eastern Orthodox who are already not happy with what they see as RCC innovations to the catholic faith. Protestants (at least those that see the Bible as the word of God) will not accept it as it has no scriptural warrant.

I think some are pushing it and have been for a long time because of the exaggerated sense of Marian theology. It is simply a misplaced devotion to Mary the exceeds what is biblically or historically part of the church. It is a mine field that I suspect Benedict will stay out of.

 

[Carlan]

I have heard some complicated gymnastics to try and justify it but it really does not hold true. Mary is NOT co redeemer. If the Pope speaks from the chair and makes it dogma then Roman Catholics will be obligated to accept it. It will be another irritant to the Eastern Orthodox who are already not happy with what they see as RCC innovations to the catholic faith. Protestants (at least those that see the Bible as the word of God) will not accept it as it has no scriptural warrant.

I think some are pushing it and have been for a long time because of the exaggerated sense of Marian theology. It is simply a misplaced devotion to Mary the exceeds what is biblically or historically part of the church. It is a mine field that I suspect Benedict will stay out of.

Your opinion RevDrNorth, fair enough. Carlan

 

[Carlan]

I have every respect for Mary as the mother of God, I pray the Hail Mary with reverence and respect. But I simply cannot go as far as this. Its difficult to express disagreement without sounding disrespectful, but to say that Mary has a superabundance of grace that she can dispose of as she wills, nd that all graces come from the Father to us through Mary is just way off base to me. I dint understand it at all. What is the basis for this belief. Scripture? Apostolic tradition?

Guy,The Angel did not say to Mary ,'Mary full of superabundant grace. But, Mary fullof grace, to me that meant she could not possibly be given any more she was completely full of Gods grace. and God’s grace flows from him through Mary to us, and to me that is not way off base as you say, and in todays terms I think that is Carlan

 

[Carlan]

I found this article very troubling. It suggests that Mary receives graces from God for her own exclusive distribution, and goes further to suggest that Mary is the mediatrix of all graces. Can someone explain this to me - I thought and believe that all grace comes from the Father and his Son, Jesus. What is the scriptural basis for this belief, that ALL graces from God are given to us through Mary, and not directly by Him or His Son(.end quote.)

Dear Guy,
The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ but rather shows its power…in no way does it impede the immediate union of the faithful with Christ: rather it fosters it"(cfLG60) How could it ever be thought that Mary, who was so deeply dedicated to the cause of her Son and united with him in one single aim, could be an obstacle in the relationship of the faithful with her Jesus? It is she who has given the world its only Redeemer and Mediator, who in her role as Mother opens to all men the way to her Son and introduces them to knowledge and love. It is she who , “when she is being preached and venerated …summons the faithful to her Son and his service, and to love for the Father”.This all comes about through the positive will of God, who willed to give the world its Redeemer by means of Mary. " When the time has fully come, God sent forth his Son born of a woman" -we read in St, Paul(Gal4:4 Since she is so closely linked to the Savior, Mary fulfils her function as mediatrix in the highest degree, but always in a way subordinate to him, “All the saving influences of the Blessed Virgin on men”-defines the Council-“flow forth…from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rest on his mediation, depend entirely on it, and draw all their power from it” (LG60) This in no way prevents Mary’s mediation from being real and most precious… We may and should resort to her with full confidence without any fear of confiding too much in her whom Jesus himself gave us as mother. The Liturgy likewise urges us to address ourselves to God through the powerful intercession of Mary: “O God…grant that we may be helped in coming to you by the intercession of her whom we believe to be the Mother of God”(RM Mass BVM#4) Carlan

Vatican 11

 

[dzheremi]

The Angel did not say to Mary ,'Mary full of superabundant grace. But, Mary fullof grace, to me that meant she could not possibly be given any more she was completely full of Gods grace

This makes sense.

and God’s grace flows from him through Mary to us

This does not follow from the first thing.

 

[Good_Fella]

Hi, I have been doing searches on the Catholic Church and the Virgin Mary. I came across some articles about how Catholics are petitioning Pope Benedict XVI to make Mary the Co-redeemer. What does that mean and what do Catholics think about Mary and redeeming us along with Jesus?

Thanks for your answers.

The title is co-Redemptrix, and it does not even remotely imply that Mary has actually redeemed the human race and satisfied for all sins by her merits* de condigno* together with Jesus. Mary satisfied for all sins de congruo in everything that Jesus did de condigno. In the words of theologian Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange: "Mary offered God a satisfaction which it was becoming that He should accept: Jesus satisfied for us in strict justice. As Mother of the Redeemer, Mary was closely united to Jesus by conformity of will, by humility, by poverty, by suffering - and most particularly by her compassion on Calvary. That is what is meant when it is said that she offered satisfaction along with Him. Her satisfaction derives its value from her dignity as Mother of God, from her great charity, from the fact that there was no fault in herself which needed to be expiated (the Immaculate Conception), and from the intensity of her sufferings. I suggest you carefully read the writings of the Church Fathers and the Popes to better understand the meaning of this title.

“And you yourself a sword will pierce, so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Luke 2, 35

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[Ceil-1]

All I know is, the people endorsing this devotion are totally committed to Christ in ways that make you and I look like slobs.

The Friars of the Immaculata is the order St. Maximillian Kolbe belonged to. This man was completely engaged in the business of God. Members of his organization, who were located in the middle of Nagasaki were **spared **the effects of the atomic bomb. That, to me, tells me God approves of them. Sorry, it is just too obvious.

St. Maximillian Kolbe died a horrible death on behalf of a person he didn’t even know. That, to me, is the height of Christianity. *“Greater love hath no man, than he who would lay down his life for a friend.” *

Can one achieve such spiritual perfection without Mary’s assistance? I suppose Corrie Ten Boom may be an example of such. But, I suspect if she knew about Mary without prejudice, she would have made a **fabulous ** Catholic. Can one have a devotion without promoting the dogma? Obviously. But, I doubt anyone can argue we could and should be doing far, far better than we are.

The devotion of St. Louis du Monfort has the Nihil Obstat, and Imprimatur, as do the various books on this devotion. That is, it does not go against the Faith to adhere to this devotion.

Now, you can pooh, pooh this all you want. But, the fact remains that St. Louis du Monfort and St. Maximiliian Kolbe, indeed, most devotees of this project are among the holiest, committed Christians who have ever lived. And, what is it about the holy priests we meet, as opposed to the lukewarm ones? Well, the holy priests all, without exception, have a devotion to Mary. And, it seems the more the devotion, the holier they are. Same goes with the laity.

Why are some of you reluctant to give this even a modicum of discernment before passing judgment? And, what was meant by, “And your heart a sword shall pierce, so that the thoughts of many shall be revealed.” ?

 

[Carlan]

This makes sense.

This does not follow from the first thing.

Hello dzheremi, Well, thats my faith the way I see it.Carlan

 

[Carlan]

All I know is, the people endorsing this devotion are totally committed to Christ in ways that make you and I look like slobs.

The Friars of the Immaculata is the order St. Maximillian Kolbe belonged to. This man was completely engaged in the business of God. Members of his organization, who were located in the middle of Nagasaki were **spared **the effects of the atomic bomb. That, to me, tells me God approves of them. Sorry, it is just too obvious.

St. Maximillian Kolbe died a horrible death on behalf of a person he didn’t even know. That, to me, is the height of Christianity. *“Greater love hath no man, than he who would lay down his life for a friend.” *

Can one achieve such spiritual perfection without Mary’s assistance? I suppose Corrie Ten Boom may be an example of such. But, I suspect if she knew about Mary without prejudice, she would have made a **fabulous ** Catholic. Can one have a devotion without promoting the dogma? Obviously. But, I doubt anyone can argue we could and should be doing far, far better than we are.

The devotion of St. Louis du Monfort has the Nihil Obstat, and Imprimatur, as do the various books on this devotion. That is, it does not go against the Faith to adhere to this devotion.

Now, you can pooh, pooh this all you want. But, the fact remains that St. Louis du Monfort and St. Maximiliian Kolbe, indeed, most devotees of this project are among the holiest, committed Christians who have ever lived. And, what is it about the holy priests we meet, as opposed to the lukewarm ones? Well, the holy priests all, without exception, have a devotion to Mary. And, it seems the more the devotion, the holier they are. Same goes with the laity.

Why are some of you reluctant to give this even a modicum of discernment before passing judgment? And, what was meant by, “And your heart a sword shall pierce, so that the thoughts of many shall be revealed.” ?

OH, Thank you Ciel!:angel1::angel1: Carlan

 

[Zooey]

Well protestant do not understand any thing about Mary now and if Mary is a Co=Redeemer well it split them more,Protestant do not have the ability to understand.

Bill, you know that some of us understand more than that…Nevertheless, my friend, you are absolutely correct about the kind of problems that this would cause.
I don’t think that it means, as taught by some very great saints of God, anything like what it appears to mean on the surface. (In fact, I really need to put DeMontfort on my “absolutely required reading list”). But the problem is, that the real danger is there for causing all kinds of horrrific fallout.
And I suspect that the cries of horror from this side of the Tiber would be nothing compared to the ones coming from Catholics.
All of which will be, IF], as nothing next to what we would all hear from the Orthodox. (Who have, or so it seems to me over in the Methodist Amen Corner, at least as much devotion to Our Lady as Catholics have. Indeed, they may in some ways have more…IMHO).

 

[John_Larocque]

I hope Pope Benedict’s views on this are the same ones he expressed years ago as a cardinal. “Co-redemtrix” is a misleading title and there are other existing titles that already cover theologically what this represents.

Wouldn’t declaring this a dogmatic decree has the effect of stating that believing in it is necessary for salvation. Is it? (I am greatly amused that some of the strongest proponents of
declaring this a Dogmatic Decree… also reject Vatican II).

 

[Ceil-1]

John, please explain how the dogmatic decree would be a rejection of Vatican II.