Is Mary Higher than the Angels?

[JimG]

I am not sure about that, Jim. Perhaps in our fallen state, we are lower, but we will be deified, become like God. (2 Peter 1.4). St. John says, “Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is. 3 And every one that hath this hope in him, sanctifieth himself, as he also is holy.” 1 John 3.2

In our fallen state, we are certainly lower in virtue and moral perfection than the angels in heaven; we are also higher in virtue and moral perfection than the fallen angels, not yet having landed ourselves in hell!

But ontologically, we are different kind of creatures than angels. We acquire knowledge over time, through sensory (name removed by moderator)ut and thought; they acquire knowledge intuitively and without effort. We have bodies that can decompose and die; they do not have bodies and thus could never have died.

It is such considerations that lead me to say that the angelic nature is ontologically of a higher order than the human nature.

In one thing we might be said to have an advantage: The Son of God never took upon himself an angelic nature; he did assume a human nature.

Yes, we will become like God. We begin here, with the infusion of sanctifying grace. We are perfected in heaven with a direct knowledge of God, not mediated by thought (rather similar to angelic ways of knowing). But we can never become like God ontologically. And we will always remain human beings, even in heaven, while angels remain angels and God remains God.

 

[lanceg]

I Jim, agree we never become like God ontologically. Rather, it is like heat (God) that permeates a branding iron (us).

Even if we are lower than the angels ontologically, our faith holds that the most glorious Theotokos and Mother of God is “more honorable than the Cherubim, and incomporably more glorious the the Seraphim.” I am sure Latin piety & theology has similar expressions supporting this, as our Lady is “Queen of Angels.”

 

[CentralFLJames]

I agree with the other Jim. In general human nature is lesser than Angelic nature. Angels in heaven never sinned and are pure spiritual beings and do not have united souls and bodies like we humans do. Angels are higher up in general - but there are exceptions. But more importantly the heavenly court all cooperate with each other and raise each other up in common family glory and sharing of joy. Angels do not seperate themselves from humans or vice versa - we all are spiritual brethren. Yet, there does seem to be a definate hiearchy of honor that is joyously given and shared in.

I am of the mind that the capacity of the created human soul is limited in how much of God’s grace it can contain without being overcome by God’s holiness and grandeur. This is why I think we are called to higher levels of holiness and even sainthood to grow our souls to be able to participate more deeply in the beatific vision in heaven.

But Mary is held special and different than all other humans and angelic beings. Mary is the Queen of heaven and is second to no other created being. But as our mother she is not worshiped and shares our human nature. In heaven she joins our prayers to hers in worship and mediates grace and makes profound intercession to God and Jesus. Protestants don’t know it but Mary as their spiritual mother is interceding for them as well and asking God to convey special graces and to come back to the full communion with The Catholic Church.

Certain other humans by special relationship to Jesus may also be given a superhuman elevated status above angels or at least to a certain tier of angles. St. Joseph is said to have a special status that places him as a Prince of Heaven above the Seraphim as well. He may be the first person below Mary or lovingly at “her side” in another special co-joined status. No doubt the apostles, martyrs and saints have a special status as well and unique honors that are shared with the entire heavenly court.

But for most of us I think we will be just eternally happy to come crawling into heaven at whatever level God will let us in. But it certainly would be better to strive to attain as high a spiritual status as humanly possible. After all this is for eternity!

James

 

[JimG]

I Jim, agree we never become like God ontologically. Rather, it is like heat (God) that permeates a branding iron (us).

Even if we are lower than the angels ontologically, our faith holds that the most glorious Theotokos and Mother of God is “more honorable than the Cherubim, and incomporably more glorious the the Seraphim.” I am sure Latin piety & theology has similar expressions supporting this, as our Lady is “Queen of Angels.”

Yes, I have to agree with you there. Mary is assuredly Queen of Angels in many of our prayers and in reality.

 

[catholic1966]

Angels certainly have free will. Otherwise, some could not have sinned, becoming devils, and the others could not love, serving God as holy angels.

The story of the rebellion of the angels was held by Aquinas, as was the view that angels are higher than humans.

I’m assuming you mean this in a past tense. They have no free will NOW do they? I mean, from my recollection, the angels were “tested” in one instance as to whether they were “good” and remained in Heaven or “evil” and fell to Hell. At present, the angels in Heaven have no free will to sin as I understand it via Aquinas. No angels in Heaven are currently continually being condemned Hell by sinning. Right?

 

[JimG]

I’m assuming you mean this in a past tense. They have no free will NOW do they? I mean, from my recollection, the angels were “tested” in one instance as to whether they were “good” and remained in Heaven or “evil” and fell to Hell. At present, the angels in Heaven have no free will to sin as I understand it via Aquinas. No angels in Heaven are currently continually being condemned Hell by sinning. Right?

Not to answer for Ron, but I think it is not so much a matter of not having free will, as it is of the nature of the angelic intellect and will. Angels know intuitively, not through sense knowledge, like us. Consequently, when an angel makes a decision, it is permanent. Angels do not change their minds, ever. There is no basis for them to do so.

It also has to do with the Beatific Vision. Even for humans, direct contact with God–perfect goodness–so satiates the will, which is drawn to the good, that even though our will is still free, there is no possibility that we can choose against God while in Heaven in the possession of the Beatific Vision.

 

[rbspace]

Dear Friends,

I would like to challenge you all to read in your bibles psalm 8:5 and the first chapter of Hebrews. Jesus is LORD not Mary. Mary is simply the vessel that God used in order to get his will done in the earth. Also, we need to remember that Jesus died on the cross for us too. Sure Mary was blessed to be used of God, but remember Acts 10:34 says that God is no respecter of persons. Where does it say in any translation of the bible that Mary is above the angels? That would counteract scripture because the first chapter of Hebrews says that Jesus is so much better than they are! Read it for yourself!

Blessed to be a Blessing

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . . Where does it say in any translation of the bible that Mary is above the angels? That would counteract scripture because the first chapter of Hebrews says that Jesus is so much better than they are! Read it for yourself!

Blessed to be a Blessing

I’m missing something in your logic. Why would the fact that Jesus is higher than the angels mean that Mary cannot also be higher than the angels?

Mt Everest is higher than me; that does not prevent Mt Wilson from being higher than me also. Nowhere does it say that the angels are next highest to Jesus.

 

[mlldrl]

Where does it say in any translation of the bible that Mary is above the angels?

1Cor 6:3

M

 

[catholic1966]

It also has to do with the Beatific Vision. Even for humans, direct contact with God–perfect goodness–so satiates the will, which is drawn to the good, that even though our will is still free, there is no possibility that we can choose against God while in Heaven in the possession of the Beatific Vision.

Hey, Jim. But wasn’t Satan and the other host of angels that fell from grace ALWAYS in the beatific vision and with God since their creation since all angels were once in Heaven? So how did Satan and the other bad angels “fall” (end up in Hell) by your logic? They were always in the possession of the Beatific Vision since their creation. All angels were created and in Heaven with God since their very creation. Yet one third of them fell. How is that?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I have seen it claimed that the salutation of Gabriel to Mary translated as Ave or Hail is in the form of a subordinate addressing a superior [As in *Hail Caesar!]. That seems to be the way that word is used elsewhere in the New Testament.

Everywhere else angels greet humans with Do not be afraid.

Note that while Gabriel is described as an archangel, as are Raphael and Michael, all three seem to be of one of the highest orders of angels.

 

[Irish_Saints]

I have seen it claimed that the salutation of Gabriel to Mary translated as Ave or Hail is in the form of a subordinate addressing a superior [As in *Hail Caesar

!]. That seems to be the way that word is used elsewhere in the New Testament.

Everywhere else angels greet humans with Do not be afraid.

Note that while Gabriel is described as an archangel, as are Raphael and Michael, all three seem to be of one of the highest orders of angels.
I’m no Greek scholar by any means, but it looks to me that the word in St. Luke 1:28 is χαιρε (chaire), and is a fairly common greeting used throughout the New Testament. It would be somewhat more formal than a simple “hello” in English; it carried with it the notion of “be well, be at peace, be filled with joy”, etc. These types of greetings were and are fairly popular in the Near- and Middle-East regions.

You are correct in your observation that what IS unique about the angel’s greeting is the fact that in Mary’s case alone, the typical “Don’t be afraid” preamble is conspicuous by its absense. This should at least raise the question about what made this young woman from Nazareth so singular that God’s chief messenger dispensed with the usual pleasantries and addressed her in a decidedly uncharacteristic fashion. Coupled with the highly unorthodox moniker κεχαριτώμενή (kecaritomene), this passage has and likely will continue to cause many to emulate the faithful maidservant of Galilee, who “thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.”

Dominus vobiscum

 

[JimG]

Hey, Jim. But wasn’t Satan and the other host of angels that fell from grace ALWAYS in the beatific vision and with God since their creation since all angels were once in Heaven? So how did Satan and the other bad angels “fall” (end up in Hell) by your logic? They were always in the possession of the Beatific Vision since their creation. All angels were created and in Heaven with God since their very creation. Yet one third of them fell. How is that?

The angels did not enjoy the Beatific Vision from the instant of their creation. If they had, as you say, they could not have fallen.

Like Adam and Eve, they were subject to a test, and had to choose for or against God. Only after making that choice were those who chose for God granted the direct vision of God.

All creatures are always in the presence of God, since no creature exists without his notice and his positive will. But neither humans nor angels experience the Beatific Vision until making a positive choice for God.

Divine revelation does not tell us much about the angels’ test, and since they do not exist in a time-continuum, as we do, it is not easy to imagine how it occurred, but we do know that it occurred.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I’m no Greek scholar by any means, but it looks to me that the word in St. Luke 1:28 is χαιρε (chaire), and is a fairly common greeting used throughout the New Testament. . .

Where else do you find it used in the New Testament? Strong’s only lists it as Hail at:

1. Judas greeting of Jesus Mt 26:49
2. The soldiers mocking Jesus Mt 27:29; Mk 15:18; Jn 19:3
3. The women greeting Jesus at the tomb Mt 28:9

I missed it if it is translated as something else.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Hey, Jim. But wasn’t Satan and the other host of angels that fell from grace ALWAYS in the beatific vision and with God since their creation since all angels were once in Heaven? So how did Satan and the other bad angels “fall” (end up in Hell) by your logic? They were always in the possession of the Beatific Vision since their creation. All angels were created and in Heaven with God since their very creation. Yet one third of them fell. How is that?

My recollection of the source escapes me at the moment but somewhere tucked away in my mind is a remembrance of some saintly writings and private exegesis that indicates that the angelic fall most likely happened at the instant the angles were created. This is mystic speculation.

And one theory or insight is that The angels were created from nothing into “eternity” in one instant. Since there is no concept of “time” in heaven what is an instant to us is as an eternity to them and vice-versa. So in the creative act itself some claim the angels resolved for themselves their respective allegiances in a flash of pure angelic intellect and reasoning. In that creative event Lucifer perceived the profound superiority of God’s splendor and elected to not submit to unconditionally serve God. Further he lusted to possess the fullness of God’s splendor and magnificence unto himself. Out of pure pride and perfect knowledge of the consequences Lucifer decided that he would rather serve an eternity of torment in hell rather than serve God as even his 2nd in command as the single most powerful created angelic being in existence! Lucifer wanted nothing less than the full power and magnificence of God Himself. So at that same instant Lucifer elected to be Satan to have what he resolved would be his own dominion. So again, in the same instant they were created, Satan and the other rebellious angels cast themselves into hell to seperate themselves from God to consumate the decision permanently.

Some Catholic sources (this one I think came out in an exorcism of a group of extremely high level demons) claim that if God were to give Satan one final act of Mercy to be forgiven and return to the heavenly court that Satan would still reject that act of mercy from pure pride and resolute decision. This is as somone said because angels as spiritual beings of pure intellect do not and can not change their minds. Most interesting is that angels apparently were made subject to some very human like frailty at the instant of their creation as humans are (pride, rebellion etc.).

Thus, my own take and speculation is that the angels did not yet share in the beatific vision at the time of the fall since yet it was ongoing for the eternity before they were created. But angels as created beings (just like humans are) only came into existence when they became manifest objects of that eternal beatific vision. Thus while angels came from the beatific vision those falling never were likely in full or probably any communion with that beatific vision. It seems logical then that the faithful angels who passed the test of creation and did not fall were permitted to share in that vision.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

I have seen it claimed that the salutation of Gabriel to Mary translated as Ave or Hail is in the form of a subordinate addressing a superior [As in *Hail Caesar

!]. That seems to be the way that word is used elsewhere in the New Testament.

Everywhere else angels greet humans with Do not be afraid.

Note that while Gabriel is described as an archangel, as are Raphael and Michael, all three seem to be of one of the highest orders of angels.

I am not an expert here Joe. That said it is likely that there are additional unknown/unrevealed archangels. But the archangels are only in the 2nd of 9 tiers of angelic and heavenly beings. The multitude of regular angles being the First Choir.

There are at least 7 more heavenly tiers above these two that ascend upward from The Choir of Principalities, The Choir of Virtues, The Choir of Powers, The Choir of Dominations, The Choir of Thrones, The Choir of Cherubim, and the Choir of Seraphim.

James

 

[Irish_Saints]

Where else do you find it used in the New Testament? Strong’s only lists it as Hail at:

1. Judas greeting of Jesus Mt 26:49
2. The soldiers mocking Jesus Mt 27:29; Mk 15:18; Jn 19:3
3. The women greeting Jesus at the tomb Mt 28:9

I missed it if it is translated as something else.

Translated as “Hail” or similar, you’ve found what appears to be five. However, the root word “chairo”, is translated a number of various ways.

In one popular translation, the word parses out the following way in the NT:
all hail 1
be glad 14
farewell 1
God speed 2
greeting 3
hail 5
joy 5
joyfully 1
rejoice 42

In all the word appears no less than 68 times in 16 out of the 27 NT books.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Wonder why the translator used Hail in only those six cases. Is there something else in the phrase that led him to it?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I am not an expert here Joe. That said it is likely that there are additional unknown/unrevealed archangels. But the archangels are only in the 2nd of 9 tiers of angelic and heavenly beings. The multitude of regular angles being the First Choir.

There are at least 7 more heavenly tiers above these two that ascend upward from The Choir of Principalities, The Choir of Virtues, The Choir of Powers, The Choir of Dominations, The Choir of Thrones, The Choir of Cherubim, and the Choir of Seraphim.

James

Note Tobit 12:15. Raphael declares that he is one of the seven who stand before God and present petitions. I think this means he is of the Cherubim. The note in the Jerusalem Bible says that Gabriel and Michael are also of that seven.

 

[AndyF]

vrlobo88:

Yes.

From: St. Michael and the Angels (TAN Books isbn:0-89555-196-9)

“…And what can tell the glorious scenes that took place in Paradise when, a few years later, Mary the Mother of God was assumed body and soul into heaven and proclaimed the Queen of Angels.?”

One destined for heaven will also judge angels. (1 Cor 6,3)

AndyF