Is Mary Magdalene's gosple real?

[diggerdomer]

Good times,CHRISTINE77 the gnostic gosples are really interesting! Okay so they were ignored by the official church - they did this for our own spiritual safety and that is good for us, but surly we can explore these things, to be able to know what is in the spirit and what is not…right? We are not so weak in faith that we would be lead astray are we?

xxx zundrah xxx

They weren’t ignored by the official church (as you say). They were simply not included in the canon of Scripture. That’s not the same as ignoring them. Yes, certainly we are free to read them; just not the same as Scripture.

 

[diggerdomer]

Actually, at least three of the gospels were written well before he died (Matthew, Luke, and Mark, in that order).

That’s one opinion/theory, but it’s not required by the Catholic faith to agree with it (and the majority of Catholic scholars think the Gospels were all written after Peter’s death). Catholics are free to agree with that theory or not.

 

[daeve]

The holy spirit!? God controls everything, right? So he obviously controlled the accorance of the gnostic gosples?

God controls everything? Does he control your free will? He knows what will happen, but He doesn’t control your choices. He doesn’t control the rapist or murderer, does he? Does he control the person who commits any kind of sin. No. I don’t understand the phrase “controlled the accorance”… I think I don’t know what accorance means. Could you mean occurance? Probably not. You were talking about the Book of Mormon on another thread…did God control that? Nope.

 

[Zundrah]

God controls everything? Does he control your free will? He knows what will happen, but He doesn’t control your choices. He doesn’t control the rapist or murderer, does he? Does he control the person who commits any kind of sin. No. I don’t understand the phrase “controlled the accorance”… I think I don’t know what accorance means. Could you mean occurance? Probably not. You were talking about the Book of Mormon on another thread…did God control that? Nope.

God controls everything… he designed the beginning and the end before it takes place. Do you really mean to deny that!?

That’s the first I’ve ever heard of a christian denying Gods control…

 

[Zundrah]

They weren’t ignored by the official church (as you say). They were simply not included in the canon of Scripture. That’s not the same as ignoring them. Yes, certainly we are free to read them; just not the same as Scripture.

So you admit that the gnostic gospel of Mary is genuine?

were simply not included in the canon of Scripture

Is that what you meant or am I just reading this wrong?

xxx zundrah xxx

 

[Zundrah]

Then “we” obviously excludes you, because you don’t know the truth in this matter.

I think that I know what I’m talking about, bpbasilphx, don’t try to insult me.

…just try and see if you can give me just** one **part of the gospel of Mary that isn’t consistent with the bible? Why is it given the cold sholder?

The Gospel of Mary Magdalene is simply not the word of Christ. Period.

It shows the disciples talking, what’s not “christ’s word” in that!? Are you blind? Can’t you read? There is nothing wrong with the text in her gospel! Show me a problem with it. It is not sinister, anti - christian or inconsistent so why ignore it?

 

[elts1956]

Do you think that the gosple of Mary Magdalene is authentic?
1 - It has been aged correctly so…
2 - It doesn’t have heresys in it.
3 - It seems competely harmless and biblicaly correct.

Have you read it?
Do you believe that it is genuine?
I do. But of course that is only my oppinion and I am not going to try to convince any one else of that. But what do you think about it, if you have read it? If you haven’t read it then quickly go and do it now, becasue it is only very short and small.

The gospel of Mary Magdalene is, if I remember correctly, a gnostic writing. Gnosticism was condemned as a heresy. When??? I don’t recall off hand. The Cathars of the Languedoc region of France were Gnostics.

 

[Zundrah]

The gospel of Mary Magdalene is, if I remember correctly, a gnostic writing. Gnosticism was condemned as a heresy. When??? I don’t recall off hand. The Cathars of the Languedoc region of France were Gnostics.

What is the definition of gnostic? Do you know?

xxx zundrah xxx

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

God controls everything… he designed the beginning and the end before it takes place. Do you really mean to deny that!?

That’s the first I’ve ever heard of a christian denying Gods control…

An understanding of free will here can help.

 

[Zundrah]

An understanding of free will here can help.

…

 

[patrick457]

The Gospel of Mary was first discovered in 1896 in the so-called Akhmim Codex (aka Papyrus Berolinensis 8502 or Berlin Codex), written during the late 4th-early 5th centuries - the gospel however is dated somewhere around the late 2nd century (there are controversial claims that it was originally written closer during Jesus’ time). There, it was grouped together the Apocryphon of John, the Sophia of Jesus Christ, and the Act of Peter (distinct from the Acts of Peter). All these are written in the Sahidic dialect of Coptic. Meanwhile, there are also two other fragments of the text, both written in Greek (Papyrus Oxyrhynchus L 3525 and Papyrus Rylands 463).

As for whether it is ‘heretical’ or not…

(Missing)

“…Will m[a]tter then be utterly [destr]oyed or not?” The Savior said, “All natures, all formed things, all creatures exist in and with one another and will again be resolved into their own roots, because the nature of matter is dissolved into the roots of its nature alone. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

Then Peter said to Him, “Since you have now explained all things to us, tell us this: what is the sin of the world?” The Savior replied, “There is no such thing as sin; but you make sin when you do what is of the nature of adultery, which is called ‘sin.’ For this reason, the Good came among into your midst, to the essence of each nature, to restore it to its root.”

Then He went on to say, “This is why you get si[c]k and die: because [you love] what de[c]ei[ve]s [you]. [Anyone who] thinks should consider (these matters)! [Ma]tter gav[e bi]rth to a passion which has no Image because it derives from what is contrary to nature. Then there arises a disturbance in the whole body. For this reason I said to you, ‘Be of good courage’, and if you are discouraged, still take courage over against the various forms of nature. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

When the Blessed One said this, he greeted all of them, saying, “Peace be with you! Receive my peace for yourselves. Be on your guard so that no one deceives you by saying, ‘Look over here!’ or ‘Look over there!’ For the Son of Man is within you. Follow Him! Those who seek Him will find Him. Go therefore, and preac[h] the good news of the Kingdom. I have left no commandment but what I have commanded you, and I have given you no law, as the Lawgiver did, lest you be bound by it.” After He had said these things, He departed from them.

But they were distressed and wept greatly, saying, “How shall we go to the gentiles to announce the good news of the Kingdom of the Son of Man? If even He was not spared, how will we we be spared?”

Then Mary stood up and greeted all of them and said to her brethren, “Do not weep and be distressed nor let your hearts be irresolute. For His grace will be with you all and will shelter you. Rather we should praise His greatness, for He has prepared us and made us into men.” When Mary had said these things, she turned their heart [to]ward the Good, and they began to discuss the wor[d]s of [the Savior].

Peter said to Mary, “Sister, we know that the Savior loved you more than other women. Tell us the words of the Savior that you remember, which you have in mind since you know them; and we do not, nor have we heard of them.”
Mary answered and said, “I will impart to you what is hidden from you.” And she began to say the following words to them. She said, “I saw the Lord in a vision and I said to Him, ‘Lord, I saw you today in a vision.’ He answered and said to me, ‘Blessed are you since you did not waver at the sight of me.! For where the mind is, there is the treasure.’ I said to Him, ‘Lord, the mind which sees the vision, does it see it through the soul or through the spirit?’ The Savior answered, ''It sees neither through the soul nor through the spirit. Rather the mind, which is between the two, sees the vision an[d] that is w[hat … ]’”

(Missing)

 

[Zundrah]

The Gospel of Mary was first discovered in 1896 in the so-called Akhmim Codex (aka Papyrus Berolinensis 8502 or Berlin Codex), written during the late 4th-early 5th centuries - the gospel however is dated somewhere around the late 2nd century (there are controversial claims that it was originally written closer during Jesus’ time). There, it was grouped together the Apocryphon of John, the Sophia of Jesus Christ, and the Act of Peter (distinct from the Acts of Peter). All these are written in the Sahidic dialect of Coptic. Meanwhile, there are also two other fragments of the text, both written in Greek (Papyrus Oxyrhynchus L 3525 and Papyrus Rylands 463).

As for whether it is ‘heretical’ or not…

(Missing)

“…Will m[a]tter then be utterly [destr]oyed or not?” The Savior said, “All natures, all formed things, all creatures exist in and with one another and will again be resolved into their own roots, because the nature of matter is dissolved into the roots of its nature alone. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

Then Peter said to Him, “Since you have now explained all things to us, tell us this: what is the sin of the world?” The Savior replied, “There is no such thing as sin; but you make sin when you do what is of the nature of adultery, which is called ‘sin.’ For this reason, the Good came among into your midst, to the essence of each nature, to restore it to its root.”

Then He went on to say, “This is why you get si[c]k and die: because [you love] what de[c]ei[ve]s [you]. [Anyone who] thinks should consider (these matters)! [Ma]tter gav[e bi]rth to a passion which has no Image because it derives from what is contrary to nature. Then there arises a disturbance in the whole body. For this reason I said to you, ‘Be of good courage’, and if you are discouraged, still take courage over against the various forms of nature. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

When the Blessed One said this, he greeted all of them, saying, “Peace be with you! Receive my peace for yourselves. Be on your guard so that no one deceives you by saying, ‘Look over here!’ or ‘Look over there!’ For the Son of Man is within you. Follow Him! Those who seek Him will find Him. Go therefore, and preac[h] the good news of the Kingdom. I have left no commandment but what I have commanded you, and I have given you no law, as the Lawgiver did, lest you be bound by it.” After He had said these things, He departed from them.

But they were distressed and wept greatly, saying, “How shall we go to the gentiles to announce the good news of the Kingdom of the Son of Man? If even He was not spared, how will we we be spared?”

Then Mary stood up and greeted all of them and said to her brethren, “Do not weep and be distressed nor let your hearts be irresolute. For His grace will be with you all and will shelter you. Rather we should praise His greatness, for He has prepared us and made us into men.” When Mary had said these things, she turned their heart [to]ward the Good, and they began to discuss the wor[d]s of [the Savior].

Peter said to Mary, “Sister, we know that the Savior loved you more than other women. Tell us the words of the Savior that you remember, which you have in mind since you know them; and we do not, nor have we heard of them.”
Mary answered and said, “I will impart to you what is hidden from you.” And she began to say the following words to them. She said, “I saw the Lord in a vision and I said to Him, ‘Lord, I saw you today in a vision.’ He answered and said to me, ‘Blessed are you since you did not waver at the sight of me.! For where the mind is, there is the treasure.’ I said to Him, ‘Lord, the mind which sees the vision, does it see it through the soul or through the spirit?’ The Savior answered, ''It sees neither through the soul nor through the spirit. Rather the mind, which is between the two, sees the vision an[d] that is w[hat … ]’”

(Missing)

Thanks for this patrick457, I will have to read this in about **two hours ** time though because I have to run some where quickly - lunch with mum - I’ll be back soon!

xxx zundrah xxx

thank you again!

 

[patrick457]

The continuation:

"*’… it.’ And Desire said, ‘I did not see you go down, but now I see you rising. So why do you speak falsely when you belong to me?’ The soul answered, ‘I saw you, but you did not see me or recognize me. I served you as a garment and you did not recognize me.’ After it had said these things, it left joyfully and gradfully away.

Again, it came to the third Power, ‘Ignorance.’ [It] examined the soul closely, saying, ‘Where are you going? You are bound by wickedness - indeed you are bound! Do not judge!’ And the soul said, ‘Why do you judge me when I judged not? I was bound, though I did not bind. I was not recognized, but I have recognized that all will be dissolved, both the things of earth and those of heaven.’

When the soul had left the third Power behind, it rose upward, and saw the fourth Power, which had seven forms. The first form is darkness; the second desire; the third ignorance; the fourth is zeal for death; the fifth is the realm of the flesh; the sixth is the wisdom of the folly of the flesh; the seventh is the wisdom of the wrathful. These are the seven Powers of Wrath.

They interrogated the soul, ‘Where are you coming from, men-killer, and where are you going, space-conqueror?’ The soul answered and said, ‘What binds me has been slain, and what surrounds me has been overcome, and my desire has come to an end and ignorance is dead. In a [wor]ld, I was set loose from a world, [an]d in a “type”, from a “type” which is above, and (from) the fetter of forgetfulness, which exists in time. From this time I will reach rest in the time of the moment of the Aeon in silence.’*"

After Mary had said these things, she was silent, since the Savior had spoken thus far with her. But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, “Say what you will about the things she has said, but I do not believe that the S[a]vior said these things, f[or] indeed these teachings are of other ideas.” Peter also opposed her in regard to these matters and asked them about the Savior. “Did He, then, speak secretly with a woman, in preference to us, and not openly? Are we to turn back and all listen to her? Did He choose her over us?”

Then [M]ary wept and said to Peter, “My brother Peter, what are you imagining? Do you think that I have thought up this up myself in my heart or that I am lying about the Savior?”

Levi answered, speaking to Peter, “Peter, you are always irate. Now I see you contending against the woman like the Adversaries. But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you to reject her? Surely the Savior knew her very well. For this He loved her more than us. And we should rather be ashamed and clothe ourselves with the Perfect Man, acquire it for ourselves as He commanded us, and proclaim the good news, without laying down any a further commandment or a further law than the one which the Savior spoke.” After [he had said these] things, they started to go out [to] proclaim and to preach.

[The Gos]pel according to Mary

…That’s pretty much the surviving text we have.

All in all, the gist of the text would be pretty much like:

• The resurrected Jesus discusses some things with His disciples, answering their questions on the nature of matter and the nature of sin.
• After the discussion, He commissions them to preach the gospel and departs (the Ascension?), leaving the disciples distraught and grieving.
• Mary (presumably Mary of Magdala ) comes up to the fore and encourages them.
• Peter then asks Mary to share with them any special teaching she received from Jesus. Mary responds to Peter’s request by recounting a conversation she had with the Savior about visions. In the conversation, Jesus teaches that the inner self is composed of soul, spirit, and mind, and visions are seen and understood in the mind.
• When the narrative resumes after a break in the text, Mary is no longer recalling her discussion with the Savior. She is instead recounting the revelation given to her in her vision, describing an ascent of a soul, which as it passes on its way to its final rest, engages in dialogue with four powers that try to stop it (the three surviving ones are named ‘Desire’, ‘Ignorance’, and ‘Wrath’, which in turn has seven forms).
• Peter then appears to be offended by the discovery that Jesus selected Mary above the other disciples to interpret his teachings and attacks her, along with Andrew.
• Levi, however, defends Mary and quells Peter’s attack on her (“If the Savior made her worthy, who are you to reject her?”).
• The gospel finally ends with the disciples going forth to preach the gospel.

 

[Zundrah]

I don’t understand what you mean (name removed by moderator)… What’s wrong with it?

 

[diggerdomer]

So you admit that the gnostic gospel of Mary is genuine?

What do you mean by geniune?

Is that what you meant or am I just reading this wrong?

xxx zundrah xxx

I mean that the Gospel of Mary was not included in the canon of Scripture.

 

[FCEGM]

It shows the disciples talking, what’s not “christ’s word” in that!? Are you blind? Can’t you read? There is nothing wrong with the text in her gospel! Show me a problem with it. It is not sinister, anti - christian or inconsistent so why ignore it?

Simply because a writing claims to present a dialogue between the disciples does not make it an actual account or a God-inspired writing. The Book of Mormon does precisely the same thing, but is that inspired by God? I can write a work of fiction with dialogue between Christ and His disciples - does that make it worthy of canonization?

God controls everything… he designed the beginning and the end before it takes place. Do you really mean to deny that!?

That’s the first I’ve ever heard of a christian denying Gods control…

No one is denying God’s ultimate control of all. But God does not directly will sin or error, but He does allow such (His permissive will) knowing that in the End His Will is triumphant.

Those participating in this thread are trying to help you see why the canon has been set as it is and why certain writings purporting to be orthodox Christian works (the gospel of Mary Magdalen, the gospel of Peter, etc., etc.) have not been placed in the official canon. Now, as one approaching the Catholic Church, the canon of Scripture is something you will have to accept if you become a member of the Church.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Depends on what the definition of “this” is.

If you mean why the Church hasn’t ruled out additional books, I can’t prove why. I simply gave a reasonable suggestion that relations with the Orthodox, or with Eastern Catholics, might be a reason.

If you are questioning the fact that that the Orthodox have a larger canon, here’s a good chart:
catholic-resources.org/Bible/Heb-Xn-Bibles.htm

This is a great Bible comparison chart - thanks!

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Simply because a writing claims to present a dialogue between the disciples does not make it an actual account or a God-inspired writing. The Book of Mormon does precisely the same thing, but is that inspired by God? I can write a work of fiction with dialogue between Christ and His disciples - does that make it worthy of canonization?

No one is denying God’s ultimate control of all. But God does not directly will sin or error, but He does allow such (His permissive will) knowing that in the End His Will is triumphant.

Those participating in this thread are trying to help you see why the canon has been set as it is and why certain writings purporting to be orthodox Christian works (the gospel of Mary Magdalen, the gospel of Peter, etc., etc.) have not been placed in the official canon. Now, as one approaching the Catholic Church, the canon of Scripture is something you will have to accept if you become a member of the Church.

THis is what I was trying to get at—permissive will versus active will.

 

[FCEGM]

I don’t understand what you mean (name removed by moderator)… What’s wrong with it?

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6977&repos=1&subrepos=0&searchid=487457

catholicculture.org/commentary/otr.cfm?id=3599&repos=6&subrepos=4&searchid=487457

Jessica, these two articles should help you better understand what Gnosticism was and is and why the writings arising from these beliefs are not held in the Christian canon. Reading them may be interesting, but if one reads them without being able to discern the wheat from the chaff then they can do harm to one’s Christian faith.

 

[FCEGM]

THis is what I was trying to get at—permissive will versus active will.