Is Mary more merciful than Jesus

[Justin_Mary]

more effective

I think “more effective” is the wrong way to think about it. More pleasing to God is a better way to think about it.

Yes, we are all part of the Church. We are the body, Christ is the head. The Church is also our mother. She feeds us, nurtures us, teaches us, help us grow. She is Christ’s bride.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Is it ‘more effective’ then, to ask Mary to intercede for us, and if so, why?

The “effectiveness” of a prayer is dependent on whether it is the will of God or not. You’re always going to get the will of God whether you ask Mary for her help or not. Mary always does the will of God.

People need to quit seeing prayer as being some formula where you do X Y and Z and that makes the prayer “Effective” and you get what you want. That’s pagan thinking, like the priests of Baal who thought if they called his name loud enough for long enough and said the prayers just the right way, he’d answer the prayer.

Prayer is a Relationship with God. We want to do it in a way that is Pleasing to God. Including the Mother of God in our prayers is Pleasing to God. It helps grow our Relationship with God.

If you love God, it’s pretty easy to love his Mother too and just naturally rely on her and include her in things. What I see too often on this forum is a lack of love and appreciation for God’s Mother, and it makes me sad. It’s like if you married a really great husband and he brought with him a super nice, loving mother-in-law but you just ignored her all the time saying, “I don’t need to talk to you. I can just go straight to my husband, so get lost.”

 

[Justin_Mary]

Prayer is a Relationship with God. We want to do it in a way that is Pleasing to God. Including the Mother of God in our prayers is Pleasing to God. It helps grow our Relationship with God.

St Louis de Montford says the Holy Spirit searches for His first love in us. The more Mary He finds in us, the more He pours Himself into us.

Sounds beautiful, but not really practical, I mean how do I get Mary in me.

A few weeks ago I heard someone talk about how a seed grows. It is planted in good soil, assimilates that soil into itself & grows into whatever it is supposed to be.

Similarly, we are the seed. The Church is the soil. The more we assimilate the Church in our selves, the more the Holy Spirit will poor Himself into us.

Just an idea, that works for my simple understanding.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. “Getting Mary into you” is similar to being filled with the Spirit.

We “get Mary in us” by imitating her and modeling ourselves on her. As Fr. Gaitley describes, we take her hand, like her little children, and let her lead us to the foot of the Cross.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. “Getting Mary into you” is similar to being filled with the Spirit.

We “get Mary in us” by imitating her and modeling ourselves on her. As Fr. Gaitley describes, we take her hand, like her little children, and let her lead us to the foot of the Cross.

Still, all that is so esoteric & “difficult” for me to understand. It leads to the similar question, “Why don’t we just imitate Jesus, after all He is the way, the truth, & the life.”

I’m not saying you’re wrong. In my head, we are saying the same thing. The same thing Fr Gaitly says, the same thing St Louis de Montford said.

The same thing God has said over & over again in the different, but same story we read in His revelation to us.

What is said about Mary is true about the Church. What is said about the Church is true about Mary. She is the new Eden, the new Paradise. This is where our God has planted us. The Church.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Still, all that is so esoteric & “difficult” for me to understand.

It’s not hard for me at all. Mary is my mother. She was at the foot of the cross. She brings me to the foot of the cross with her. We are there with Jesus together.

Having a mother-child relationship with Mary is like having a mother-child relationship with my own mother. It’s not difficult, doesn’t need to be analyzed, isn’t esoteric, and is as natural as can be.

 

[MNathaniel]

There seems to be the underlying assumption in Catholic practice that the Virgin Mary is more merciful than Jesus.

Um… No.

I’ll leave this for others to address, but yes, I think you may have just misunderstood Catholic belief about this. You are right to be “struggling” with that belief, because it’s not what Catholicism teaches. Jesus is God. God is the source of mercy. Mary is a mere creature.

Maybe something to be aware of is that there are Catholics who get excessive (and even say inappropriate and misleading things) about Mary. That’s deeply unfortunate. Because we should love Mary (she is our mother, who Jesus gave us from the cross to be our mother) – but when people go off the deep in about how to practice that, it risks confusing others and possibly even shaking people’s faith or provoking people into avoiding looking further into the Church.

Suffice it to say for now, that your intuition is correct, and Jesus as God is infinite, including in his mercy, so Mary is not more merciful than Jesus.

Mary is the “mother of mercy” insofar as she is the mother of Jesus. Who is mercy. The point is always Jesus; Mary always points to Jesus. Any version of Mary anyone ever offers you, if Mary isn’t pointing you right back at Jesus, it’s a false image of Mary. Mary’s message to us is always some variation of her words in John 2:5:

His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

 

[Lea101]

If you’re going to be one of those people with a hangup about intercessory prayer then that’s you’re hangup; it’s Scripturally based.

I get tired of all the “but why can’t we go straight to Jesus” on here. No one is saying you CAN’T.

“I don’t need to talk to you. I can just go straight to my husband, so get lost.”

People need to quit seeing prayer as being some formula where you do X Y and Z and that makes the prayer “Effective” and you get what you want

I think you’re reading too much into my questions. I’m genuinely trying to learn about the theology behind it, I’m not trying to put it down.

 

[Paxinterrahominibus]

Thanks everyone for your answers - As Lea101 said (I think we are on the same line) I am not trying to undermine any teaching of the Church, just to understand it. And in this precise case, it seems to me that the Church contradicts herself by teaching that Jesus is infinitely merciful yet he won’t have mercy on a repentant sinner sometimes, times in which his mother will have mercy (which logically means that in those moments Mary is more merciful than Jesus.

So far I cannot find any of your answers theologically consistant. I appreciate how some try to make me understand through human analogy (who do you go to, your mom or your dad, when you make a mistake? etc.). However, God ways are not our ways, Jesus repeated it many times in the Gospel when he says that we have to forgive the same offender seventy-time seven because God forgives tirelessly, (Mathew 18:21-22) or when he says that God makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous (Matthew 5:45). God does not behave or react like a human being. This imagery of sweet and merciful Mary trying to soothe the anger of her vengeful Son, would only make sense if God behaved like an irascible human being. I.e a king prompt to punish harshly but whose feelings for his mother would win over. Even if Jesus is a man he is also fully God, i.e his justice and love are not flawed by human attachment and preferences in the way our is. Otherwise, we couldn’t call nuns Jesus’s wives without calling Jesus polygamous.

Jesus, while he was walking on this earth, forgave even those who scorned, flogged, and crucified Him, which was the worst thing that men ever did, the worst sin EVER committed; yet he forgave without Mary’s intercession.

People often bring the example of Cana, but then was Jesus granted was free logistical support and not forgiveness for the sin or anything that the spouses of Cana direly needed. People only had to come to him and believe, and he would heal their sicks, rise their dead, and exorcise their sons without Mary’s need to intercede.

So please tell me that the Church teaching is consistent and make me see what I can’t see.

I understand some here may be pissed off by the people who struggle with such questions. I assume those are cradle Catholics for whom all those things are so natural that they don’t even see a problem there, but the fact that most people who convert or want to convert to Catholicism have problem with those issues is revealing enough. You can’t embrace or defend inconsistency, especially if it affects your relationship with God and the way you receive His Grace.

 

[Ilkka]

Think of Jesus like a judge and Mary is our defense lawyer when we go before Jesus.

But what about the fact that Jesus already knows everything that we have in our defense and even better than we ourselves. Why would Jesus need reminding for this from Mary since He already knows? I’m genuinely baffled and that’s why I’m asking.

 

[Heavenward]

It is not that Mary is more merciful than Jesus; heck Jesus is the Divine Mercy, the Fountain and Model of all mercy, and thus Jesus is the Source of mercy of Mary the Mother Mercy (Mother of Mercy=Mother of Jesus, get it?).

It is just that while Mary inherited all of her mercy from Jesus, she inherited none of His Justice. There is no hint of punishment in her, not like Jesus who is also our Divine Judge. And considering the power of Mary for intercession, it is no wonder sinners flock to her.

Look it up: Mary has no title of “Mother of Justice” or “Lady of Justice” except from some fringe SJW groups. The nearest you will find is the title “Mirror of Justice” from the Litany of Loretto, which is traditionally described as Mary reflecting the holiness of Jesus.

Now I get it, that may have no sense whatsoever, since mercy is traditionally defined as giving somebody more than what is just, so you cannot be merciful if you are not just. But that is what I have been taught and what I have read from saints such as St Alphonsus Liguori.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

But what about the fact that Jesus already knows everything that we have in our defense and even better than we ourselves. Why would Jesus need reminding for this from Mary since He already knows? I’m genuinely baffled and that’s why I’m asking.

Do you think Jesus, in his divine nature (And maybe even in his human nature), wasn’t already aware that the wedding couple at Cana had run out of wine and were about to be embarrassed in front of all the guests?

Why didn’t he just go fix that for them instead of waiting for his mother to intercede and ask him to do it?

Jesus was making a point about Mary as our mediatrix/ intercessor. God wants Mary in this role.

 

[Heavenward]

To add to @Tis_Bearself’s answer, you have to remember that the time of God’s mercy is in this world, in this life, not in the next. Show me where in the Bible where it depicts God is merciful after death. No, it is all God’s Justice, Jesus as the Pantokrator, the Just Judge, in the afterlife.

That is why it has been said that when we die Mary becomes our defense lawyer: she has no hint of justice in her, even in the afterlife, and she will be on our side after death.

 

[Ilkka]

Do you think Jesus, in his divine nature (And maybe even in his human nature), wasn’t already aware that the wedding couple at Cana had run out of wine and were about to be embarrassed in front of all the guests?

I actually had this specific passage in mind. I mean, maybe this was a test of some sort for Mary? And what about the Canaanite woman whose request Jesus first rejected and later accepted? Could it be that Jesus didn’t change His mind so much as He tested the woman and her faith?

Jesus was making a point about Mary as our mediatrix/ intercessor. God wants Mary in this role.

I don’t know if this specific passage talks about that. I believe that Mary is our Holy Mother and also an intercessor in prayer. But I’m really not sure if this passage is talking about Mary interceding for us as much as it is about Jesus testing Mary’s faith.

What do you think?

Edit: Another thing that crossed my mind is what if Mary is interceding for us in the sense that she has the faith we lack? That is not so much about her being a defense lawyer as it is having faith for us when we are lacking in faith for ourselves? This is a way I could see how she truly is our intercessor. Not so much in power or having leverage to change Jesus’ mind but rather in the sense that she is the perfect example of faithfulness and reverance. What do you think about that?

 

[Lea101]

Jesus testing Mary’s faith.

That was never really my interpretation, tbh. Always took it to mean that the passage was highlighting Mary’s pivotal role in starting his ministry and/or his obedience to his mother (and hence her importance). I just never understood the theology of the topic at hand because the analogies seem to somewhat reinforce the original point, or warrant some deeper explanation because it makes Jesus comes across as cold/not merciful in these analogies. I understand her role in guiding some to Jesus, it’s just the intercessory part on Judgement Day that raises some questions and protestants don’t get it either.

I think when you’re a kid and you do something wrong, who do you want to tell first? Tell mom or tell dad? I think we have an impression that mom will go easier on us. If dad finds out he’ll kill me

Friend B is not on good terms with Friend A but Friend B needs a favor from Friend A. Friend B asks you to talk to Friend A on his behalf. You go to Friend A and talk to him. Friend A is still not on good terms with Friend B, but he will do the favor because you’re his friend.

Think of Jesus like a judge and Mary is our defense lawyer when we go before Jesus.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I don’t know if this specific passage talks about that. I believe that Mary is our Holy Mother and also an intercessor in prayer. But I’m really not sure if this passage is talking about Mary interceding for us as much as it is about Jesus testing Mary’s faith.

What do you think?

This isn’t about “what I think” or what anybody “thinks”. It’s about what the Church teaches about Mary.

From the Catechism:

The prayer of the Virgin Mary

[2617] Mary’s prayer is revealed to us at the dawning of the fullness of time. Before the incarnation of the Son of God, and before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, her prayer cooperates in a unique way with the Father’s plan of loving kindness: at the Annunciation, for Christ’s conception; at Pentecost, for the formation of the Church, his Body.88 In the faith of his humble handmaid, the Gift of God found the acceptance he had awaited from the beginning of time. She whom the Almighty made “full of grace” responds by offering her whole being: “Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word.” " Fiat ": this is Christian prayer: to be wholly God’s, because he is wholly ours.

[2618] The Gospel reveals to us how Mary prays and intercedes in faith. At Cana, the mother of Jesus asks her son for the needs of a wedding feast; this is the sign of another feast - that of the wedding of the Lamb where he gives his body and blood at the request of the Church, his Bride. It is at the hour of the New Covenant, at the foot of the cross,90 that Mary is heard as the Woman, the new Eve, the true “Mother of all the living.”

[2619] That is why the Canticle of Mary, the Magnificat (Latin) or Megalynei (Byzantine) is the song both of the Mother of God and of the Church; the song of the Daughter of Zion and of the new People of God; the song of thanksgiving for the fullness of graces poured out in the economy of salvation and the song of the “poor” whose hope is met by the fulfillment of the promises made to our ancestors, “to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.”

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

Except in this case it is Jesus who gave us this way to Himself because He wants us to honor His/our mother as a part of receiving that mercy.

 

[Lea101]

Could you expand more, with the analogy that was given?

 

[Ilkka]

This isn’t about “what I think” or what anybody “thinks”. It’s about what the Church teaches about Mary.

I’m sorry but saying this made you come across to me as a little hostile, honestly. I’m not stupid nor a fool. I trust what the Church teaches is infallibly true. I just don’t see how the Catechism quotes you posted somehow convey the idea that Mary uses some sort of leverage on Jesus to make Him do things He wouldn’t otherwise do.

As I see it and have been taught by priests and the Catechism, prayer in general is a mystery and it doesn’t necessarily change God’s mind as much as it is a mysterious act of co-operation with God. Perhaps faith and prayer are means by which we commune with God. It would make sense that the Immaculate Mother of God and Perpetual Virgin would also display perfect faith and that is what intercedes for us. Her faith and not her leverage as if it was a hostage situation and Mary is our negotiator.

I was simply trying to lead you to consider another perspective at Mary’s role as our intercessor. If that made your heresy alarm go off then I’m sorry, that was not my intention.

 

[Paxinterrahominibus]

This is an extremely hazardous and grave statement. If Jesus is “only justice” at the final Judgement, then Mary’s intercession would change nothing, plus she would be directly opposing Jesus’ wisdom and not directing us to him.

In both scenarios, the way you see things is still that Mary doesn’t give up on us when Jesus does, i.e that she is more merciful than he is, which I think is blasphemous.

I think we should also stop opposing God’s justice and God’s mercy. God’s mercy is part of His justice and not against it. This is what Aquinas says.

Now what is your source for saying that Mary has no justice and only mercy, contrary to Jesus who has both?