Is Mary our sister?

[Thomas_White]

Quote:

The bolded is simply incorrect. Mary as sister is valid. We Carmelites call “Mary our Mother, Sister, and Queen” with Church approbation.

THANK-YOU for this post!! I think this sufficiently answers the question and should close the topic.

I have to disagree. I believe that to say Mary is both Mother and Sister requires an explanation in plain English. It does not suffice to simply say it. What does it mean?

 

[fastenatingguy]

I found this:

*The Feast of the Holy Name of Mary was established by Pope Innocent XI upon the victory of Christian forces against the Muslims besieging Vienna in 1683. This litany, reflecting the nature of the feast, is for private devotion.

Prayer:

Lord, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.
Son of Mary, hear us.
Son of Mary, graciously hear us.

Heavenly Father, of Whom Mary is the Daughter, have mercy on us.
Eternal Word, of Whom Mary is the Mother, have mercy on us.
Holy Spirit, of Whom Mary is the spouse, have mercy on us.
Divine Trinity, of Whom Mary is the Handmaid, have mercy on us.

Mary, Mother of the Living God, pray for us
Mary, daughter of the Light Eternal, pray for us
Mary, our light, pray for us
**Mary, our sister, pray for us **
Mary, flower of Jesse, pray for us
Mary, issue of kings, pray for us
Mary, chief work of God, pray for us
Mary, the beloved of God, pray for us
Mary, Immaculate Virgin, pray for us
Mary, all fair, pray for us
Mary, light in darkness, pray for us
Mary, our sure rest, pray for us
Mary, house of God, pray for us
Mary, sanctuary of the Lord, pray for us
Mary, altar of the Divinity, pray for us
Mary, Virgin Mother, pray for us
Mary, embracing your Infant God, pray for us
Mary, reposing with Eternal Wisdom, pray for us
Mary, ocean of bitterness, pray for us
Mary, Star of the Sea, pray for us
Mary, suffering with your only Son, pray for us
Mary, pierced with a sword of sorrow, pray for us
Mary, torn with a cruel wound, pray for us
Mary, sorrowful even unto death, pray for us
Mary, bereft of all consolation, pray for us
Mary, submissive to the law of God, pray for us
Mary, standing by the Cross of Jesus, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady, pray for us
Mary, Our Queen, pray for us
Mary, Queen of glory, pray for us
Mary glory of the Church Triumphant, pray for us
Mary, Blessed Queen, pray for us
Mary, advocate of the Church Militant, pray for us
Mary, Queen of Mercy, pray for us
Mary, consoler of the Church Suffering, pray for us
Mary, exalted above the angels,
Mary, crowned with twelve stars, pray for us
Mary, fair as the moon, pray for us
Mary, bright as the sun, pray for us
Mary, distinguished above all, pray for us
Mary, seated at the right hand of Jesus, pray for us
Mary, our hope, pray for us
Mary, our sweetness, pray for us
Mary, glory of Jerusalem, pray for us
Mary, joy of Israel, pray for us
Mary, honor of our people, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady of the Assumption, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady of Loreto, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady of Lourdes, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady of Czestochowa, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady of Mount Carmel, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady of the Angels, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady of Dolors, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady of Mercy, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady of the Rosary, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady of Victory, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady of La Trappe, pray for us
Mary, Our Lady of Divine Providence, pray for us

Lamb of God, Who takes away the sins of the world, spare us, O Lord Jesus.
Lamb of God, Who takes away the sins of the world, graciously hear us, O Lord Jesus.
Lamb of God, Who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us, O Lord Jesus.

Son of Mary, hear us.
Son of Mary, graciously hear us.

I will declare your name unto my brethren.
I will praise you in the assembly of the faithful.*

 

[Thomas_White]

fastenatingguy–thanks for the reply. It is too long to quote, but I concede the point. I was interested in seeing a theological explanation of how Mary could be both sister and mother to the same person. However, it is a spiritual matter and if it is a recognized Catholic belief then as a Roman Catholic I accept it.

I would have far greater difficulty, however, in accepting the concept that Christ, the Son of God, is my brother. The idea that a person could on some level be an equal of Christ just doesn’t seem right. We are far, far from that. This concept would seem to limit Christ to his time as a man in the temporal world when He was the historical Jesus. But the historical Jesus was both true God and true Man, and I believe there would be something fundamentally wrong in implying that I could as a human being share in the divinity of Christ. This cannot be correct.

This is not to say a person cannot experience the presence of Christ in their temporal existence.

 

[polki]

I found this article interesting. Chaminade is the founder of the Marianists.

campus.udayton.edu/mary/ChaminadeandMary.html

“When we say “brother,” we speak of a genetic similarity and psychological affinity. So, if we are “brothers of Mary,” she must be our sister. That image, “Mary, our sister,” is often used in feminist theology today, but the title of “sister” for Mary is very old in the Church. It was used by Cyril, by Athanasius, Epiphanius, and Augustine, limiting ourselves to the patristic period. The Carmelites, for example, have always considered themselves to be “brothers of the Blessed Mary,” their sister in religion. In Pope Paul VI we have a recent and illustrious advocate of such terminology. Mary belongs to the human family; she is our sister in Christ and in the common faith of Abraham; she is our sister in the midst of the Church. Eminent member of the Church, she remains full-fledged member, for she too is consecrated by the Spirit.”

It goes on to mention the role of Mary as mother. "…We believe, indeed, with the holy doctors, that she is all our hope, tota ratio spei nostrae. She is our Mother, our refuge, our help, our strength, and our life!” "

 

[polki]

Quote:

The bolded is simply incorrect. Mary as sister is valid. We Carmelites call “Mary our Mother, Sister, and Queen” with Church approbation.

THANK-YOU for this post!! I think this sufficiently answers the question and should close the topic.

Are you the moderator? Why can’t this topic remain open to discussion? Quoting one line from the Carmelites does not answer the question about why Mary should be considered “first and foremost” our sister and why Jesus should be considered “first and foremost” our brother. They are far above the level of us miserable sinners. Do you have any references, perhaps from the catechism or from the doctors of the Church, regarding the topic?

 

[polki]

fastenatingguy–thanks for the reply. It is too long to quote, but I concede the point. I was interested in seeing a theological explanation of how Mary could be both sister and mother to the same person. However, it is a spiritual matter and if it is a recognized Catholic belief then as a Roman Catholic I accept it.

I would have far greater difficulty, however, in accepting the concept that Christ, the Son of God, is my brother. The idea that a person could on some level be an equal of Christ just doesn’t seem right. We are far, far from that. This concept would seem to limit Christ to his time as a man in the temporal world when He was the historical Jesus. But the historical Jesus was both true God and true Man, and I believe there would be something fundamentally wrong in implying that I could as a human being share in the divinity of Christ. This cannot be correct.

This is not to say a person cannot experience the presence of Christ in their temporal existence.

I agree. I think that anything that comes across as making Jesus more human than God ought to be questioned by Catholics. We are not supposed to lower Jesus in order to raise ourselves up. Jesus being considered “our brother first and foremost” comes across this way to me.

 

[commenter]

Ok, a relative is a Carmelite priest, they are great. Carmelites and other reliable guides rightly reverence Mary as “sister” but only in a much larger theological and devotional context that is non existent in the average parish, or for most individuals. Yes, Mary is our sister. She is a fellow believer who needed salvation, except hers was accomplished different from ours.

But in this thread, this sermon and follow up with this priest, seems to raise questions. Given that most Christians do choose between focusing on Mary as only our (past, deceased) sister - the Protestant view, and also how non-Christians may think of her

• or -
  focusing on Mary as our (current) mother, to whom we can offer intercession now, as well as being a role model, it seems the sermon failed to make the right point - especially one given on Jan 1. This fits in with the follow up where the priest says that the rosary isn’t the only prayer. Of course rosary people know that! The problem in the average parish in 2015 is not that Catholics are so engrossed with Mary they neglect Jesus. It’s more likely they have never been been taught about Mary as mother, in the sense of Mother of God, and in a sense our mother now.

Like that priest, I remember 1960 too. But why is he preaching in 2015 a sermon to respond to the needs of a prior time?

 

[godisgood77]

Are you the moderator? Why can’t this topic remain open to discussion? Quoting one line from the Carmelites does not answer the question about why Mary should be considered “first and foremost” our sister and why Jesus should be considered “first and foremost” our brother. They are far above the level of us miserable sinners. Do you have any references, perhaps from the catechism or from the doctors of the Church, regarding the topic?

Apologies…didn’t mean to come across as flippant.

On the surface, I thought the question was whether or not Mary could be referred to as our sister and Jesus our brother. Which they clearly can be. I didn’t realize the debate was whether Mary should be considered “first and foremost” (your quotes) as our sister and Jesus “first and foremost” our brother.

Jesus is inconceivably ‘higher’ than us and Mary is much higher than us…She is more like us than like Jesus, but higher nonetheless.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

When Christ died we were made adopted sons and daughters and therefore you became brothers and sisters to each other.

Mary however was different since she was conceived without sin totally through God’s grace. Since she was Christ mother she became our adopted mother and was even given to us at the foot of the cross “behold your mother”.

So all I don’t think it is technically incorrect to call her our sister since we are all brothers and sisters in Christ I think it is more correct to call her our mother. Mary has many titles as in the Carmelites litany. But as the catechism says Mary is mother of Christ and mother of the church.

 

[commenter]

If a priest were giving a series of talks on Mary to a small, highly informed group of Catholics, he could focus on a few different aspects, building on what he knows they already know. In that context, he might point out, after finishing the rosary, that in addition to Mary’s crucial role as our mother right now, we can also join with our Protestant friends in loving her as our sister. Our late sister.

If that same priest were preaching a 10 minute homily at the noon Mass in the average parish, on Jan 1 he should focus on her as mother of God, and our mother now. He cannot assume most Catholics in 2015 have a good understanding of Mary’s and the saints’ current role in our lives, intercessory prayer, or other aspects of Mary in Catholic doctrine.

In some parishes, I have heard priests steer people away from Christ the King, or Christ the Savior. They focus only on Christ the Friend, or Christ the Community Builder, or Christ the Reliever of Guilt Feelings and Low Self Esteem. Again, I suppose those new titles are not exactly heresy in themselves, but you have to look at what aspects of Christian Faith people are being steered away from. What are they NOT hearing on the feast of Christ the King, or Jan 1?

 

[drforjc]

I would have far greater difficulty, however, in accepting the concept that Christ, the Son of God, is my brother. The idea that a person could on some level be an equal of Christ just doesn’t seem right. We are far, far from that. This concept would seem to limit Christ to his time as a man in the temporal world when He was the historical Jesus. But the historical Jesus was both true God and true Man, and I believe there would be something fundamentally wrong in implying that I could as a human being share in the divinity of Christ. This cannot be correct.

For the first bold, simply look at the prayers in the Liturgy of the Hours. I was easily able to find a response in the intercessions that simply said “Lord, help your brothers to grow in holiness.”

As to the second, simply look at the Offertory prayers at Mass: “May we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity.”

 

[HelenRose]

Quote:

The bolded is simply incorrect. Mary as sister is valid. We Carmelites call “Mary our Mother, Sister, and Queen” with Church approbation.

THANK-YOU for this post!! I think this sufficiently answers the question and should close the topic.

 

[zab]

The priest at mass today said that he wanted to clear up some misconceptions about Mary’s role in the Church.
He said that:

1. “authentic Catholic teaching is that Mary is our sister, and Jesus is our brother.” (I thought she was the Mother of the Church and so therefore she is our mother because we are part of the Church.)
2. “to say that to ask Jesus for something, you should go through Mary, is incorrect.” (I thought you could, and that Catholics even could consecrate themselves to the Sacred Heart of Jesus through Mary.)
3. “Mary is blessed, not because she is the Mother of God, but because she said yes to the will of God.” (I thought it was both.)

Is any and all of this true? Thank you for helping me to understand.

If he had pointed out that we can also think of Mary as our sister in Christ, that would be one thing. But it is puzzling to me why he would want to clear up a “misconception about Mary’s role in the Church” as our mother. Also, it is not incorrect to go to Jesus through Mary. We don’t have to go to Jesus through Mary, but it is certainly alright and we are even encouraged to do so. Just listen to the prayer of our daily offering, “O Jesus,** through the Immaculate Heart of Mary**, I offer Thee all my prayers, works, joys and sufferings of this day…” From your description, it seems that the priest did more to confuse the congregation than to clear up any misconceptions.

 

[drforjc]

If he had pointed out that we can also think of Mary as our sister in Christ, that would be one thing. But it is puzzling to me why he would want to clear up a “misconception about Mary’s role in the Church” as our mother. Also, it is not incorrect to go to Jesus through Mary.

Agreed. Mary as sister and Christ as brother are legitimate ideas, but are secondary to Mary as mother and Christ as Lord.

 

[Thomas_White]

I just cannot agree that Christ could be our brother. There is the Trinity, and Christ is the Son of God the Father. Christian belief is that there is but one God. So while Christ is the Son of God, one must remember the Trinity. That Christ is the Son of God cannot mean He is our brother. This would seem to imply that in some way we share in the divinity of Christ. This cannot be correct. There is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit: the one true God.

God is our Father. And this is so because God created our souls. While Christ is the Son of the one God, He is God; God and Christ are, together with the Holy Spirit, the one true God. God created us, but this did not make us the brother of Christ, the Son of God. Is any human being also the Son of God? I don’t think so. But this is precisely what calling Christ our brother would necessarily mean. Brothers by definition have the same father. For this reason, I cannot agree that I could be the brother of Christ. The enormity of what this would mean should be realized. It assumes divinity. It absolutely cannot be correct.

I could understand referring to Christ as one’s brother in a figurative way, such as in ‘Christ, our brother in faith’. But the meaning would properly only be figurative, I think.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

I just cannot agree that Christ could be our brother. There is the Trinity, and Christ is the Son of God the Father. Christian belief is that there is but one God. So while Christ is the Son of God, one must remember the Trinity. That Christ is the Son of God cannot mean He is our brother. This would seem to imply that in some way we share in the divinity of Christ. This cannot be correct. There is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit: the one true God.

God is our Father. And this is so because God created our souls. While Christ is the Son of the one God, He is God; God and Christ are, together with the Holy Spirit, the one true God. God created us, but this did not make us the brother of Christ, the Son of God. Is any human being also the Son of God? I don’t think so. But this is precisely what calling Christ our brother would necessarily mean. Brothers by definition have the same father. For this reason, I cannot agree that I could be the brother of Christ. The enormity of what this would mean should be realized. It assumes divinity. It absolutely cannot be correct.

I could understand referring to Christ as one’s brother in a figurative way, such as in ‘Christ, our brother in faith’. But the meaning would properly only be figurative, I think.

Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters. (Hebrews 2:11)

 

[drforjc]

I just cannot agree that Christ could be our brother. There is the Trinity, and Christ is the Son of God the Father. Christian belief is that there is but one God. So while Christ is the Son of God, one must remember the Trinity. That Christ is the Son of God cannot mean He is our brother. This would seem to imply that in some way we share in the divinity of Christ. This cannot be correct. There is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit: the one true God.

God is our Father. And this is so because God created our souls. While Christ is the Son of the one God, He is God; God and Christ are, together with the Holy Spirit, the one true God. God created us, but this did not make us the brother of Christ, the Son of God. Is any human being also the Son of God? I don’t think so. But this is precisely what calling Christ our brother would necessarily mean. Brothers by definition have the same father. For this reason, I cannot agree that I could be the brother of Christ. The enormity of what this would mean should be realized. It assumes divinity. It absolutely cannot be correct.

I could understand referring to Christ as one’s brother in a figurative way, such as in ‘Christ, our brother in faith’. But the meaning would properly only be figurative, I think.

Matthew 12

1. 
   ]48] But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my* brothers**?"
   ]49] And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my* brothers**!

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

I’m pretty sure Church teaching is that she is our mother. You can go through Mary to Jesus, you are right. To third one it is both.

Yes, it’s even in the Bible when Jesus says to John, " Son, behold your mother", to Mary, “woman, behold thy son”. She is called the mediatrix of all grace because she intercedes for us.

What this priest speaks are modernist heresies.

 

[Thomas_White]

Matthew 12

1. 
   ]48] But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my* brothers**?"
   ]49] And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my* brothers**!

1. 
   Yes, I understand. What I meant was that although Christ in these verses says, “Here are my mother and my brothers”, he did not mean that they shared in his divinity as the Son of God the Father. What I believe he meant was that kinship with him “counts for nothing” and “only one who does the will of his Heavenly Father belongs to his true family.” What I have put in quotes in the preceeding sentence is in a footnote to these verses in the NAB. While the language does have great meaning, it is also surely figurative. While the usage is figurative, it is also spiritual and should not be taken lightly.
   
   My point was that Christ’s use of the word “brothers”, as in Matthew 12:49, does not mean that such a brother is literally the brother of the Son of the Father. This would connote divinity, and I believe this just cannot be the correct meaning or interpretation.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

Agreed. Mary as sister and Christ as brother are legitimate ideas, but are secondary to Mary as mother and Christ as Lord.

In my own honest and humble opinion, Mary as sister and Jesus as brother are more than merely legitimate ‘ideas’, that they are integral realities along with Mary as being our mother and Jesus being our Lord. A case of dual nature and reality. Jesus has of His own Divine ultimate authority, and Mary has been given/allowed by God subordinate albeit it powerful authority.