Is Mary sinless?

[bjcros]

I know that Catholics believe that Mary was without sin. However, this poses a problem, because for Mary to be born sinless then she was not human. I say she wouldn’t be human because in Adam everyone sinned, including Mary. To be born of man is to be sinfull, because of original sin commited by Adam. Because Jesus was not born of man but of God, he was sinless. If Mary was not human because she was without sin, that takes away where Jesus gets his humanity. Therefore, Jesus was not our representative and his sacrifice was pointless. I don’t know the exact location but Paul says just as in Adam all sinned, in Christ all are forgiven.

 

[mjdonnelly]

Mary was born without sin because it was forgiven by God. He probably has the power to do that.

 

[masterjedi747]

bjcros:

However, this poses a problem, because for Mary to be born sinless then she was not human.

No. Mary was just as human as the rest of us. But she was concieved free from original sin – just like Adam and Eve were (but of course that never make them any less human either). Mary was miraculously pre-baptized by God in order to recieve the salvific graces from Christ’s sacrifice in anticipation of His inevitable victory over sin that was to occur. In scripture, the Archangel Gabriel greets Mary in Greek: “Kaire Kecharitemene”, which means “Hail, Full of Grace” – How could Mary have possibly ever been called “Full of [the] Grace [of the Holy Spirit]” if she had ever sinned? Any stain of sin on her soul whatsoever would have made her less then full of grace. It would have meant that she had cooperated with Satan’s plan, and turned against God. The authors of scripture also refer to her as the New Ark of the Covenant – God’s most sacred and holy vessel which He dwelt in during the Old Testament – but now literally embodied by a young virgin woman who carried Him as a child. Mary was born without original sin. She is the “New Eve”, and thus she recieved absolutely nothing less than the exact same gift of freedom from sin that had first been given to Adam and Eve in the Garden. Could Mary have sinned? Yes. Adam and Eve could have also, and then they did. But Mary did not. She remained completely faithful to God, always conforming her own will to His, and positively responding to and accepting each and every single grace which He chose to give to her. She is the “woman” who God refered to in Genesis --the one who would be at war with the serpent. If Mary had sinned, she would in fact have been cooperating with Satan’s plans. She was the “woman” (a respectful term in that culture/society) who Christ spoke to at the foot of His cross. She is also the “woman” of Revalation, “clothed with the sun”, whom God protected from the jaws of the Dragon. And when the Dragon could not reach her, he instead made war upon all of her children – us. And at the end of her life, she was assumed body and soul into Heaven. Mary could have chosen to sin, but never did, and thus provides for us the best possible example of how to always follow God’s will for us and never turn against Him. Because it is possible, and we should learn from her example. So does any of this help answer your question, hopefully?

 

[VociMike]

bjcros:

I know that Catholics believe that Mary was without sin. However, this poses a problem, because for Mary to be born sinless then she was not human.

In fact, being without sin is the proper human condition, the state we were created for. That state has been damaged due to the sin of Adam, but sinlessness is still the fully-human condition. Jesus was born without sin, was He not fully man? Or was He man in the most perfect, and therefore sinless, manner?

 

[James15]

Rom. 3:23 - Some Protestants use this verse “all have sinned” in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary’s case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 - “all have sinned” also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 - finally, “all have sinned,” but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is “pantes.”

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all (“pantes”) have died, and in Christ all (“pantes”) shall live. This proves that “all” does not mean “every single one.” This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all (“pantes”) men. Again, this proves that “all” does not mean “every single one” because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says “many (not all) were made sinners.” Paul uses “polloi,” not “pantes.” Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 - “there is none that does good” expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people “good.”

Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone.” But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says “The good man out of his good treasure…” So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary’s Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.

 

[RSiscoe]

bjcros:

I know that Catholics believe that Mary was without sin. However, this poses a problem, because for Mary to be born sinless then she was not human. I say she wouldn’t be human because in Adam everyone sinned, including Mary. To be born of man is to be sinfull, because of original sin commited by Adam. Because Jesus was not born of man but of God, he was sinless. If Mary was not human because she was without sin, that takes away where Jesus gets his humanity. Therefore, Jesus was not our representative and his sacrifice was pointless. I don’t know the exact location but Paul says just as in Adam all sinned, in Christ all are forgiven.

Do you think that it would be impossible for God - who created the world out of nothing - to bring Mary (a human) into the world without sin? Would that exceed the limit of God’s power?

 

[Pax]

God created Adam and Eve without sin. Eve brought sin into the world as did Adam. Mary brought Jesus, our salvation, into the world. Who is greater Mary or Eve? If God brought Eve into the world without sin, than God could certainly bring Mary into the world without sin “for nothing is impossible with God.”[Luke 1:37]
Moreover, it is appropriate for Mary to be born without original sin because she bore the savior, Jesus, in her womb.

 

[mlchance]

bjcros:

To be born of man is to be sinfull, because of original sin commited by Adam. Because Jesus was not born of man but of God, he was sinless.

So original sin is a gender thing. How novel.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Terry_Collins]

Your first notion that a human cannot be born without sin is incorrect. We know of three who were born without sin and possible a fourth.
First John the Baptist was born without sin, as he was sanctified in the womb of his Mother (Luke 1:15). Secondly Jesus was born without sin and born of a woman. Thirdly Mary was born without sin and concieved without sin. Her human nature shared the same blessing that her Son shared (Luke 1:42) which was prefigured in Gen 3:15.
Now the fourth possibility was Jeremiah (Jer. 1:5).

 

[mayra_hart]

is there any scripture that directly teaches the immaculate conception? no. but there are two scripture passages that lend themselves to this understanding of mary’s life. the most important one is in luke:"the angel went to her and said,’ greetings,you who are highly favored! the lord is with you’ “(1:28). jerome probably did the best job of translating this passage so many centuries ago. he translated it as “hail,full of grace”. the important point to notice is that mary is not addressed by gabriel as “mary”. she is addressed as “full of grace”, as though that were her name. when we unpack the greek meaning of these words, gabriel called mary"the one most full of god’s gracious gift of his life in all time”.

 

[unworthysinner]

(Heb 4:15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

I Peter 2
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

(Heb 6:18) That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Sinless people do not need a Savior, Jesus we all agree was sinless, but He needed no savior. But Mary was sinless, and needed a savior??? Jesus Himself says none is greater born of woman than John the Baptist. But John is never called sinless. Mary is never called sinless, only Christ. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There are none righteous(not even Mary), no not one. Only God is righteous. Now Mary is indeed called blessed in the Bible, but never called sinless.

 

[tuopaolo]

mjdonnelly:

Mary was born without sin because it was forgiven by God. He probably has the power to do that.

She was not just born with sin but conceived without sin so it’s not true that “it was forgiven by God” since there was no sin to begin with to be forgiven. It is true that God has the power to exclude Mary from all stain of sin.

 

[bjcros]

mlchance:

So original sin is a gender thing. How novel.

– Mark L. Chance.

No, but it is passed through the man.

 

[Genesis315]

In Gen. 3:15 (woohoo!) God puts the same enmity between Jesus (the seed) and evil and between Mary (the woman)and evil. Since we know Jesus never sinned, we can say that it’s total and perfect enmity. Since Mary has this same perfect enmity between herself and evil, it follows that she also did not sin.

 

[Dph]

mlchance:

So original sin is a gender thing. How novel.

– Mark L. Chance.

man is often used to refer to human kind as a whole

 

[Milliardo]

tuopaolo:

She was not just born with sin but conceived without sin so it’s not true that “it was forgiven by God” since there was no sin to begin with to be forgiven. It is true that God has the power to exclude Mary from all stain of sin.

I’m not certain about this one. After all, Mary ios not exempt from original sin; that would then make her, in essence, at a par with Christ, and we know that it isn’t so. However, we can get a clue from her Magnificat in which she says her spirit rejoice in God her savior, so we can see that the point about God forgiving her of her original sin would be much more logical. In short, God from the beginning of time already forgave Mary for that.

 

[mercygate]

Milliardo:

I’m not certain about this one. After all, Mary ios not exempt from original sin; that would then make her, in essence, at a par with Christ, and we know that it isn’t so.

No. Human beings are not “in essence” sinful; we are tainted with Original Sin. To be conceived without sin would put Mary on a par with Eve – who was created without sin – not on a par with Christ .

However, we can get a clue from her Magnificat in which she says her spirit rejoice in God her savior, so we can see that the point about God forgiving her of her original sin would be much more logical. In short, God from the beginning of time already forgave Mary for that.

God IS her savior. But she is not “forgiven” – rather, like the first Eve, she is conceived completely without it. The ancient understanding of the Church is that as Jesus was the New Adam, Mary is the new Eve. The fruit of the Cross is applied to Mary differently than to the rest of us – before Original Sin is transmitted to her. It all addresses the Person of Jesus. It’s really not about Mary at all, if you think prayerfully about it.

 

[jeffreedy789]

if any of us make it into heaven, it’ll be because we’re free from sin - we’ve been redeemed.

mary was redeemed, too. before she sinned.

pretty simple, really.

 

[bjcros]

James15:
Rom. 3:23 - “all have sinned” also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all (“pantes”) have died, and in Christ all (“pantes”) shall live. This proves that “all” does not mean “every single one.” This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all (“pantes”) men. Again, this proves that “all” does not mean “every single one” because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 - “there is none that does good” expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people “good.”

Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone.” But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says “The good man out of his good treasure…” So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.

These are in response to…

Rom 3:23 - there is no exception. All of those people are under sin.

1 Cor. 15:22 - alright maybe he doesn’t mean all here. but Enoch and Elijah may die. The end of times isn’t here yet. Who are the two prophets in revelations?

Rom. 5:12 - Enoch and Elijah may die. The end of times isn’t here yet. Who are the two prophets in revelations?

Rom. 3:10-11 - take a look at Eccles. 7:20. Which is a footnote of the verse aswell. There is no distinction. It says

There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.

Psalm 14 - It doesn’t make a distinction between righteous and unrighteous except in the begining. Then it makes the statement “sons of men” in other words all people.

All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

Psalm 53 - Almost the exact same words of Psalm 14, but you really need help interpreting these scriptures, because it doesn’t say that God found anyone favorable or even trying to seek him.

Matt 12:35 - Jesus doesn’t say that man is good, he says the good men will do good things. He is saying that Man is good in man’s eyes, but not in God’s eyes.

Rom. 9:11 - The passage doesn’t have anything to do with Mary. Jacob was choosen before being born, but he wasn’t born without sin.

mercygate:

No. Human beings are not “in essence” sinful; we are tainted with Original Sin. To be conceived without sin would put Mary on a par with Eve – who was created without sin – not on a par with Christ .

Your logic doesn’t flow. Jesus was conceived without sin. Then how does Mary being conceived without sin not put her on par with Christ. Jesus is the Messiah. If Mary was created without sin then she wasn’t of the line of David. If she wasn’t of the line then neither was Jesus. and therefore couldn’t be the Messiah. God is without sin. Mary is without sin. Mary is God. That is a heretical idea. So Mary had sin. She was forgiven it just as the rest of us. and died a physical death before ascending to heaven.

 

[bjcros]

James15:
Rom. 3:23 - “all have sinned” also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all (“pantes”) have died, and in Christ all (“pantes”) shall live. This proves that “all” does not mean “every single one.” This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all (“pantes”) men. Again, this proves that “all” does not mean “every single one” because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 - “there is none that does good” expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people “good.”

Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone.” But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says “The good man out of his good treasure…” So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.

These are in response to…

Rom 3:23 - there is no exception. All of those people are under sin.

1 Cor. 15:22 - alright maybe he doesn’t mean all here. but Enoch and Elijah may die. The end of times isn’t here yet. Who are the two prophets in revelations?

Rom. 5:12 - Enoch and Elijah may die. The end of times isn’t here yet. Who are the two prophets in revelations?

Rom. 3:10-11 - take a look at Eccles. 7:20. Which is a footnote of the verse aswell. There is no distinction. It says

There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.

Psalm 14 - It doesn’t make a distinction between righteous and unrighteous except in the begining. Then it makes the statement “sons of men” in other words all people.
Psalm 14:3:

All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

Psalm 53 - Almost the exact same words of Psalm 14, but you really need help interpreting these scriptures, because it doesn’t say that God found anyone favorable or even trying to seek him.

Matt 12:35 - Jesus doesn’t say that man is good, he says the good men will do good things. He is saying that Man is good in man’s eyes, but not in God’s eyes.

Rom. 9:11 - The passage doesn’t have anything to do with Mary. Jacob was choosen before being born, but he wasn’t born without sin.