Is Mary sinless?

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mercygate:
No. Human beings are not “in essence” sinful; we are tainted with Original Sin. To be conceived without sin would put Mary on a par with Eve – who was created without sin – not on a par with Christ .
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Your logic doesn’t flow. Jesus was conceived without sin. Then how does Mary being conceived without sin not put her on par with Christ. Jesus is the Messiah. If Mary was created without sin then she wasn’t of the line of David. If she wasn’t of the line then neither was Jesus. and therefore couldn’t be the Messiah. God is without sin. Mary is without sin. Mary is God. That is a heretical idea. So Mary had sin. She was forgiven it just as the rest of us. and died a physical death before ascending to heaven.
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mercygate:
God IS her savior. But she is not “forgiven” – rather, like the first Eve, she is conceived completely without
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it. The ancient understanding of the Church is that as Jesus was the New Adam, Mary is the new Eve. The fruit of the Cross is applied to Mary differently than to the rest of us – before Original Sin is transmitted to her. It all addresses the Person of Jesus. It’s really not about Mary at all, if you think prayerfully about it.
You contradict yourself in the same paragraph. You say Mary wasn’t forgiven. but then you say that fruits of the cross were applied to her. The fruits of the cross are forgiveness.
 
The only logic that doesn’t flow here is yours BJC. You offer passages as proof text that are twisted out of the full context of the Bible and so you use them to support your case. The fact is that there are those who, by the garace of God have lived a sinless life and that one of those is the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Here’s my answer:

Please understand that I am not maintaining that Mary was perfect in the divine sense as Jesus was. I am saying that she is the first and best example of a Christian living a sinless life by the grace of God, and that this makes sense because that is precisely what we have been commanded to live by Our Lord Himself. She has no comparison to the Son of God, since her life was exemplary due to the work of Our Lord.

Why is this so theologically threatening? If we are called to a sinless life and holiness (and we all agree that we are) then this implicit concept from scripture is no more than a miracle of grace. The same miracle that we are called to and that we get a taste of for short periods of time when we are indeed able to live that life. perhaps all i’m saying that the Blessed virgin lived that life for a much greater duration than I have so far to date, as so set a good example of what I am called to and what I aspire to.

This takes absolutely nothing away from Christ in any way since it is sourced in Him and is a source of praise and glory to God from whom all the graces flow.

I believe that the non-Catholic contention that Mary could not have lived without sinning is the result of a serious lack of faith, since all the scriptures point to God’s command to live a holy life and avoid sin.
Leviticus 11 :44 For I am the Lord your God: be holy because I am holy.
Leviticus 11 :46 You shall be holy, because I am holy.
1 Peter 1 :16 Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy.
Leviticus 20 :26 You shall be holy unto me, because I the Lord am holy, and I have separated you from other people, that you should be mine.
Leviticus 19 :2 Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them: Be ye holy, because I the Lord your God am holy.

It makes no sense whatever for God to command us to do the impossible when the Word of God clearly says that “with God all things are possible”. Our holy lives (or lack thereof) are the direct result of our cooperation with the superabundant grace that is the gift of God. If Our Lady was indeed “full of grace” then isn’t it unbelief to say that she did not lead a sinless life? (Luke1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.)

The New Testament nowhere gives us any example of Mary’s sin and calls Joseph and many others “righteous” because they obeyed God and cooperated with His grace in their lives. It is clearly not their own works that have merited their salvation, but their works are the result of their full cooperation with the God’s graces so that their salvation is a tremendous example of the overwhelming power of the grace that God gives us to do his will. (James 2 :18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
James 2 :20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2 :22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2 :26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.)

Is it not unbelief that causes us to fall? That unbelief is why we sin…we fail to believe that God’s grace is sufficient for us, then do not cooperate with that grace and as a result fall (flat on our spiritual faces).
Romans 3 :23 For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.
Romans 5 :12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

Also…there is no distinction made between Original sin and actual sin…newborns are without actual sin until the age of reason…Adam and Eve were sinless prior to the fall. Jesus…we know was also sinless.

St. Paul’s letter to the Romans is making a de facto statement about man’s nature and unbelief in general. I don’t think it is a literal statement. This is not salvation by works at all, but our cooperation with the free gift of grace from God.

Pax vobiscum,
Here’s the link:forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=40979
 
Church Militant:
The only logic that doesn’t flow here is yours BJC. You offer passages as proof text that are twisted out of the full context of the Bible and so you use them to support your case. The fact is that there are those who, by the garace of God have lived a sinless life and that one of those is the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Here’s my answer:

Please understand that I am not maintaining that Mary was perfect in the divine sense as Jesus was. I am saying that she is the first and best example of a Christian living a sinless life by the grace of God, and that this makes sense because that is precisely what we have been commanded to live by Our Lord Himself. She has no comparison to the Son of God, since her life was exemplary due to the work of Our Lord.

Why is this so theologically threatening? If we are called to a sinless life and holiness (and we all agree that we are) then this implicit concept from scripture is no more than a miracle of grace. The same miracle that we are called to and that we get a taste of for short periods of time when we are indeed able to live that life. perhaps all i’m saying that the Blessed virgin lived that life for a much greater duration than I have so far to date, as so set a good example of what I am called to and what I aspire to.

This takes absolutely nothing away from Christ in any way since it is sourced in Him and is a source of praise and glory to God from whom all the graces flow.

I believe that the non-Catholic contention that Mary could not have lived without sinning is the result of a serious lack of faith, since all the scriptures point to God’s command to live a holy life and avoid sin.

It makes no sense whatever for God to command us to do the impossible when the Word of God clearly says that “with God all things are possible”. Our holy lives (or lack thereof) are the direct result of our cooperation with the superabundant grace that is the gift of God. If Our Lady was indeed “full of grace” then isn’t it unbelief to say that she did not lead a sinless life? (Luke1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.)

The New Testament nowhere gives us any example of Mary’s sin and calls Joseph and many others “righteous” because they obeyed God and cooperated with His grace in their lives. It is clearly not their own works that have merited their salvation, but their works are the result of their full cooperation with the God’s graces so that their salvation is a tremendous example of the overwhelming power of the grace that God gives us to do his will. Is it not unbelief that causes us to fall? That unbelief is why we sin…we fail to believe that God’s grace is sufficient for us, then do not cooperate with that grace and as a result fall (flat on our spiritual faces).
Romans 3 :23 For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.
Romans 5 :12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
Also…there is no distinction made between Original sin and actual sin…newborns are without actual sin until the age of reason…Adam and Eve were sinless prior to the fall. Jesus…we know was also sinless.
St. Paul’s letter to the Romans is making a de facto statement about man’s nature and unbelief in general. I don’t think it is a literal statement. This is not salvation by works at all, but our cooperation with the free gift of grace from God.
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Why does Mary need a savior if she was without sin? First of all I contend the passage of Luke 1:28 I say that it says ‘favored one’, rather than ‘full of grace’. I don’t see how I have twisted the context of the texts that I used. Who other than Mary and Jesus would have a sinless life. We are commanded to live a sinless life but I can pretty much guarantee that we can’t live a perfect life. God knows that we can’t live a perfect life. That is why there was sacrifice and then that is why he sent Jesus.
This is so theologically threatening because it takes away from the necessity of Christ. Mary didn’t need Christ because she was without sin. Those without sin don’t need help or salvation. Why would God send his son when there was another way that salvation could have been acheived. We are also not called to live a life like Mary lived but rather a life as Christ lived. Mary isn’t my example Christ is.
I lack no faith in God’s ability to do anything. I have seen him work. personally in my life. God does demand something we can’t do. It is true that he can do it but we can’t.
Now who has “twisted [passages] out of the full context of the Bible.”
 
IFMARY WAS SINLESS, SHE HAD NO NEED FOR A SAVIOR,BUT SHE ADMITTED WITH HER OWN LIPS THAT JESUS WAS HER SAVIOR. WHAT WAS SHE BEING SAVED FROM? JESUS SAID NOT ONE WAS GOOD EXCEPT HIS FATHER IN HEAVEN. WAS MARY AGAIN EXCLUDED FROM THIS STATEMENT? :confused: GOD BLESS
 
I tend to be short and simple with my responses:ehh: The Ark of the Covenant held the commandments of God and it was considered Holy in fact if you touched it you would die.Imagine God Himself in the womb of Mary:nope: You are going to try to tell me she had sin:eek:
 
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SPOKENWORD:
IFMARY WAS SINLESS, SHE HAD NO NEED FOR A SAVIOR,BUT SHE ADMITTED WITH HER OWN LIPS THAT JESUS WAS HER SAVIOR. WHAT WAS SHE BEING SAVED FROM? :confused: GOD BLESS
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Spoken her Savior applied this before her conception.God is out side of time,he is free to do that.😦
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
I tend to be short and simple with my responses:ehh: The Ark of the Covenant held the commandments of God and it was considered Holy in fact if you touched it you would die.Imagine God Himself in the womb of Mary:nope: You are going to try to tell me she had sin:eek:
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They aren’t saying that Mary was sinless just when she had Jesus inside of her. But rather that she was born without sin. She doesn’t have God in her at birth she isn’t even old enough too have a child. It is one thing to say that she was born without sin. And it is another to say she was forgiven her sin and was righteous at the time of conception.
 
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bjcros:
Why does Mary need a savior if she was without sin? First of all I contend the passage of Luke 1:28 I say that it says ‘favored one’, rather than ‘full of grace’. I don’t see how I have twisted the context of the texts that I used. Who other than Mary and Jesus would have a sinless life. We are commanded to live a sinless life but I can pretty much guarantee that we can’t live a perfect life. God knows that we can’t live a perfect life. That is why there was sacrifice and then that is why he sent Jesus.
This is so theologically threatening because it takes away from the necessity of Christ. Mary didn’t need Christ because she was without sin. Those without sin don’t need help or salvation. Why would God send his son when there was another way that salvation could have been acheived. We are also not called to live a life like Mary lived but rather a life as Christ lived. Mary isn’t my example Christ is.
I lack no faith in God’s ability to do anything. I have seen him work. personally in my life. God does demand something we can’t do. It is true that he can do it but we can’t.
Now who has “twisted [passages] out of the full context of the Bible.”
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Are you too silly and obtuse to take note of the fact that Mary’s sinlessness was the work of God’s grace and that is the same grace that is available to all believers. You can dis the Mother of God all you like but your lame arguments hold no water. You allege that you understand what we beleve but refuse to listen to Catholics who attempt to clarify it all for you…why? Because you would prefer to attack Catholic belief that admit that you and your sources might not know what the heck you’re talking about. You disagree? Fine. Tell someone who cares and is dumb enough to buy into that rot… it sure won’t be this Catholic. I suggest that you go bother the JWs or some other such lot.
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
I tend to be short and simple with my responses:ehh: The Ark of the Covenant held the commandments of God and it was considered Holy in fact if you touched it you would die.Imagine God Himself in the womb of Mary:nope: You are going to try to tell me she had sin:eek:
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Hi Lisa, I believe Mary was born with original sin because all that came from a womb inherited sin. Was she in sin when she bore Jesus? I believe God washed Mary through the blood of Jesus.Sin and holyness cannot dwell together. God Bless
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Hi Lisa, I believe Mary was born with original sin because all that came from a womb inherited sin. Was she in sin when she bore Jesus? I believe God washed Mary through the blood of Jesus.Sin and holyness cannot dwell together. God Bless
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Why can you accept that and not accept the same thing before conception?
 
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bjcros:
They aren’t saying that Mary was sinless just when she had Jesus inside of her. But rather that she was born without sin. She doesn’t have God in her at birth she isn’t even old enough too have a child. It is one thing to say that she was born without sin. And it is another to say she was forgiven her sin and was righteous at the time of conception.
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Again I ask why would God NOT do that?:nope:
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Why can you accept that and not accept the same thing before conception?
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Hi Lisa, because then it would not contadict scripture. 😉 God Bless
 
Church Militant:
Is it not unbelief that causes us to fall? That unbelief is why we sin…we fail to believe that God’s grace is sufficient for us, then do not cooperate with that grace and as a result fall (flat on our spiritual faces).
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Yes. This is the sin against the Holy Spirit: the only sin which God cannot forgive. Why? Because to be forgiven one must first humble oneself to believe that God can forgive us and wants to forgive us. To doubt that God’s grace is sufficient for us prevents us from asking for forgiveness and, without us asking for it, forgiveness cannot be obtained. That is the nature of free will.

Luminously argued, Church Militant.
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Hi Lisa, because then it would not contadict scripture. 😉 God Bless
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Where is the contradiction if the salvation and removal of origional sin was due to the intervention of God?
 
Church Militant:
Are you too silly and obtuse to take note of the fact that Mary’s sinlessness was the work of God’s grace and that is the same grace that is available to all believers. You can dis the Mother of God all you like but your lame arguments hold no water. You allege that you understand what we beleve but refuse to listen to Catholics who attempt to clarify it all for you…why? Because you would prefer to attack Catholic belief that admit that you and your sources might not know what the heck you’re talking about. You disagree? Fine. Tell someone who cares and is dumb enough to buy into that rot… it sure won’t be this Catholic. I suggest that you go bother the JWs or some other such lot.
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When do I say I know what Catholics believe. The only reason I am here is to understand what Catholics believe. I aint dissin Mary. I am asking for scriptural evidence of what you believe. The only evidence that anyone has ever showed me is the controversial Luke 1:28. I mean no disrespect to nobody, especially not Mary. So I take it you don’t care if you can’t defend your faith. You can’t even defend it to someone who atleast partially accepts what you believe. I suggest that you learn how to defend what you believe. Because there are those who are alot better at argueing than me, and they won’t even by into the truth of the Bible. They definitely won’t care what the church says. First of all the only source I have used is the Bible. I hope that you aint saying the Bible is wrong. because then you really don’t have any arguement for your faith. I am coming at this like Anslem “faith seeking to understand”. I understand alot more than you think. I use reason to reach logical conclusions. Which are based on the bible. That’s probably more than you can say. You prob got all your stuff from the Catholic Church so it aint even your interpretation or reading. If you don’t like what I gotta say then don’t read it. I think your saying all this stuff because you know that you don’t have an arguement for what I gotta say.
 
Can someone help with this question: Would the removal of original sin from Mary mean that she was unable to sin, or that she lived in complete obedience because she was able to resist sin?
 
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bjcros:
When do I say I know what Catholics believe. The only reason I am here is to understand what Catholics believe. I aint dissin Mary. I am asking for scriptural evidence of what you believe. The only evidence that anyone has ever showed me is the controversial Luke 1:28. I mean do disrespect to nobody, especially not Mary. So I take it you don’t care if you can’t defend your faith. You can’t even defend it to someone who atleast partially accepts what you believe. I suggest that you learn how to defend what you believe. Because there are those who are alot better at aruguing than me, and they won’t even by into the truth of the Bible. They definitely won’t care what the church says. First of all the only source I have used is the Bible. I hope that you aint saying the Bible is wrong. because then you really don’t have any arguement for your faith. I am coming at this like Anslem “faith seeking to understand”. I understand alot more than you think. I use reason to reach logical conclusions. Which are based on the bible. That’s probably more than you can say. You prob got all your stuff from the Catholic Church so it aint even your interpretation or reading. If you don’t like what I gotta say then don’t read it. I think your saying all this stuff because you know that you don’t have an arguement for what I gotta say.
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Whoa dude:eek: Don’t even go there!:tsktsk: It is funny you accept the Bible that the CATHOLIC CHURCH put in canon.Back up off of Micheal:mad:
 
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mj330:
Can someone help with this question: Would the removal of original sin from Mary mean that she was unable to sin, or that she lived in complete obedience because she was able to resist sin?
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If she didn’t have original sin then she would be able to resist temptation.
 
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mj330:
Can someone help with this question: Would the removal of original sin from Mary mean that she was unable to sin, or that she lived in complete obedience because she was able to resist sin?
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She still had free will if that is what you are asking.
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Where is the contradiction if the salvation and removal of origional sin was due to the intervention of God?
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The contradiction would be in scripture that says all have sinned and that there is not one who is good except the Father who is in Heaven. Thats the contradiction. :confused: God Bless
 
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