Is Mary the Co-redeemer?

[Dr_M]

St. Jude must of been a heretic when he said this “And some indeed reprove, being judged: But others save, pulling them out of the fire. And on others have mercy, in fear, hating also the spotted garment which is carnal.” St. Jude 1, 22-23

 

[Steelhart]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=103374
Fr. Vincent Serpa
** Re: Am I required to believe Mary is a co-redeemer with Christ? **

 

[mansr27]

We don’t hold to definitions 1 and 3. We hold to definiton 2. That is why it is bolded in red. That is the context of our belief.

My point was, If one and there are also valid definitions, it is very easy to understand why people misinterpreted our beliefs.

Fr. Vincent Serpa : Mar 15, '06 at 1:13 pm.
"Because these terms can be highly mis-leading, the Church has not formalized them in any official doctrinal way. (See artical: ewtn.com/library/MARY/ORMARIA2.HTM) "

As for you, you only have 2 posts and the nature of your post gives reason to suspect you are not Catholic at all.

I did not know my faith was dependant on my number of posts. I thought this was a venue for debate and spiritual growth not just another place on the web where people attack each other.

 

[JoeyWarren]

My point was, If one and there are also valid definitions, it is very easy to understand why people misinterpreted our beliefs.

Fr. Vincent Serpa : Mar 15, '06 at 1:13 pm.
"Because these terms can be highly mis-leading, the Church has not formalized them in any official doctrinal way. (See artical: ewtn.com/library/MARY/ORMARIA2.HTM) "

I did not know my faith was dependant on my number of posts. I thought this was a venue for debate and spiritual growth not just another place on the web where people attack each other.

Do you really think I attacked you? In the last couple of days, there have been posters whom signed as Catholics and were not Catholic. The suspicion factor is high right now because the Troll factor is high.

Originally Posted by JoeyWarren
As for you, you only have 2 posts and the nature of your post gives reason to suspect you are not Catholic at all

 

[Bob_Rowland]

It should be mentioned that Mary also suffered the pain of the Crucifixion.

 

[Salamander]

If Mary was a “Co-redeemer” then I guess Jesus stating, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life” would be false. He would instead have said We are the Way… (you see, the catholic faith is not sound because it bases its canon on prayer to Mary, and not in the Name of Jesus as He is our “mediator”, not Mary). Co-redeemer, indeed!

 

[JoeyWarren]

If Mary was a “Co-redeemer” then I guess Jesus stating, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life” would be false. He would instead have said We are the Way… (you see, the catholic faith is not sound because it bases its canon on prayer to Mary, and not in the Name of Jesus as He is our “mediator”, not Mary). Co-redeemer, indeed!

-]1. Together; joint; jointly; mutually: coaptation. /-]
2. Subordinate or auxiliary: coenzyme.
-]3. To the same extent or degree: codominant./-]

Subordinate-Redeemer? Yes
Auxiliary-Redeemer? Yes

Salamander, if you find a non-christian on the street and you tell him about Christ and he says your “Sinners Prayer” and becomes saved, are you not in the role of co-redeemer(in the proper context as noted above) as well? The sinner that you actively helped come to christ may not have come to christ on his own. Your co-redeemer role would be very apparent.

 

[Salamander]

First of all, no. Secondly, “the Sinner’s Prayer” isn’t even in the Bible. Jesus was our propitiation, our redeemer, our Savior, our Sacrifice. Mary was not sacrificed, ergo, she could not be our “Redeemer”. I am a servant (not capitalized), he was a Servant (proper noun), he was the ultimate in Sacrifices. I am only a messenger of Christ; He is The Message. No one else!

 

[LilyM]

First of all, no. Secondly, “the Sinner’s Prayer” isn’t even in the Bible. Jesus was our propitiation, our redeemer, our Savior, our Sacrifice. Mary was not sacrificed, ergo, she could not be our “Redeemer”. I am a servant (not capitalized), he was a Servant (proper noun), he was the ultimate in Sacrifices. I am only a messenger of Christ; He is The Message. No one else!

Look, if I write one page of a book - heck, one paragraph even - then I can rightly be termed a co-author. That wouldn’t put me on the same level as someone else who wrote the other 99% of the thing, but it means I made a contribution which can legitimately be recognised.

Same with Mary, same with you if you bring Christ’s message to others. Paul in his epistles speaks of becoming ‘all things to all men, that by all means* I * might save some’. Is Paul here denying the salvific work of Christ? Of course not, but he rightly speaks of and rejoices in his own part in the work of bringing salvation to those who hear him.

 

[mayra_hart]

O, how marvelous it is! She acts as a mediatrix between the loftiness of God and the lowliness of the flesh, and becomes Mother of the Creator." *Andrew of Crete, Homily 1 on Mary’s Nativity (ante A.D. 740). *
“She is all beautiful, all near to God. For she, surpassing the cherubim. Exalted beyond the seraphim, is placed near to God.” *John of Damascene, Homily on the Nativity, 9 (ante A.D. 749). mary the mother of god, for me she is my redeemer when i pray to her is like iam touching god. *

 

[theAuthor]

When understood using the lens of the “magisterium” of posters in this thread, the term wouldn’t be inappropriate; however, as another poster pointed out, the colloquial use of “co” implies equality in English. So, it almost seems like by deliberately using it, we are trying to pick a fight with our Protestant friends. Don’t we honor her enough without applying honorifics that need an apologist to explain correctly?

Well said.

 

[Big_Dave]

I have a tremendous respect for Mary. To say She is a Co-Redeemer is Blasphemy. Yes, she said yes to God. There is only One Redeemer, Christ Jesus our Lord. The church is crossing the line on this one. It’s gonna loose even more members if it makes her equal to our Savior Jesus.

As a new Catholic this past Easter I had a very hard time with this. I believe that Jesus deserves all the praise and glory for saving us. Why use a term that causes so much consternation?? I know the reason for sayimng that she is, but is it really nessassary to stress that fact?? Yes " All generations will call me Blessed: as well we should. But co-redeemer?? no.

 

[theAuthor]

The problem for you and me BigDave is that if you look at the poll at the start of this thread it is very scary indeed. Either:

1. People who posted yes have a nuanced understanding of the meaning behind the title from the Catholic perspective, which is fine, or
2. The people who have posted yes are heretics.

Unfortunately, you and I will never know. We will never know if people praying the Memorare are really praying to Jesus or Mary for help. We will never know if people who pray the Rosary daily are really focussing on Jesus as Lord and are just asking for intercession, or if they are seeing Mary as a goddess of some sort. I expect some do see Mary as a deity, and address virtually all their prayers to her, neglecting Jesus.

Mayra above is an example of a heretic who deifies Mary beyond her station, even as the mother of God. She is still fully human and is in no way divine. In no way at all. She is not the Mother of God the Father, nor the Mother of the Holy Spirit. She is the mother of Jesus who is God, which is why we call her Mother of God. It emphasises that Jesus is God, not that Mary is a deity.

Having said that, I do pray the Rosary, but not as much as I pray directly to God, like Jesus told us we could.

 

[upperdarby]

In answer to the question: why bother with this title since it seems unnecessary, dangerous for some, and annoying to protestants…

The answer is that this question is wrong. The questions is whether or not it is true. If it is true, it provides another title under which we can pray to Mary for intercession and as such, a new source of grace and miracles. For the few Mariolaters in the church, it won’t make anything worse. However, it may help bring some of the lost back.

P.S. to protestants - Don’t worry to much about Mary and Catholics, most Catholics ignore her just like you - in spite of “… all generations will call me blessed…”

 

[mayra_hart]

What motivates Catholic Marian devotion is something even more than her physical privilege of being the Mother of God, incredible dignity though that was. It was her spiritual excellence, her perfect modeling of sainthood. We can distinguish seven related aspects of Mary’s sanctity and contrast them with fundamentalism’s opposite emphasis Mary is hidden, almost invisible. She “kept all these things and pondered them in her heart.” Like John the Baptist, Mary disappears before Christ. (That’s why Christ called John the Baptist the greatest of all the prophets (Matt. 11:11) because his whole program was that “He must increase, but I must decrease” (John 3:30). Mary is greatest because she is smallest. Fundamentalists object that Mary gets in the way of Christ. In fact, it is the exact opposite. She is like the morning air to the rising sun (the Rising Son!). **Fundamentalists ** **PETER KREEFT **V. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
R. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[mwienke]

“Do whatever He tells you”

words of a fine co-redemptrix

 

[LilyM]

Unfortunately, you and I will never know. We will never know if people praying the Memorare are really praying to Jesus or Mary for help. We will never know if people who pray the Rosary daily are really focussing on Jesus as Lord and are just asking for intercession, or if they are seeing Mary as a goddess of some sort. I expect some do see Mary as a deity, and address virtually all their prayers to her, neglecting Jesus.

Having said that, I do pray the Rosary, but not as much as I pray directly to God, like Jesus told us we could.

But it simply isn’t a question of EITHER Mary OR Jesus, but, as the saying goes, ‘To Jesus Through Mary’. Paul says of all who come to heaven - ‘we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is’. If Mary is in heaven, and we all truly believe so, she has no will but God’s, so there is no contradiction. That is what we believe of all the Saints - it’s called the Beatific Vision.

If I can make an analogy here it might help. My parents love each other deeply, and they are the least jealous and most loving, selfless and humble people you could possibly imagine. More than that, they share EEEEEVERYTHING with each other, and discuss EEEEEEEVERYTHING with each other.

Knowing all this, I know that it rarely if ever really matters who I address first with a request - essentially telling either is the same as telling both. Dad won’t get upset if I speak to Mum first, they’ll talk things over and come to an agreement before they make a decision and get back to me. They usually won’t even disagree about anything! THAT is what I imagine Jesus and Mary’s relationship to be like, only STRONGER and more unified even, stronger than we can possibly imagine.

 

[theAuthor]

Lily M, I agree with your perspective about intercession. However the analogy is a dangerous one. If I am a child asking Mum or Dad, each has equal authority. So to say that asking the Blessed Mother for something is the same as asking the Father is to put her on the same level as God- a heresy.

That is a world away from “Do as he tells you” at Cana, where Jesus did the miracle at Mary’s request. It is a good precedent in asking for intercession, but not for saying that Mother Mary grants miracles herself.

Something worth pointing out here is that the cloth in the temple was torn in two when Jesus rose again. Jesus tells us we can approach God directly now.

Mayra, I absolutley agree with Mary’s perfect modelling of sainthood. I would be interested in what seven things you talk of (I could not count 7 in your post). What do you mean by Mary disappears before Christ?

I would say to you that we can only think of a limited number of things (well, I am male! ) at a time, so if I am constantly praying to Mary I am indeed neglecting to give my due honour to Jesus and am guilty of idolatory. Do you agree that if you give most of your thought to Mary then that is idolatory?

 

[LilyM]

Lily M, I agree with your perspective about intercession. However the analogy is a dangerous one. If I am a child asking Mum or Dad, each has equal authority. So to say that asking the Blessed Mother for something is the same as asking the Father is to put her on the same level as God- a heresy.

That is a world away from “Do as he tells you” at Cana, where Jesus did the miracle at Mary’s request. It is a good precedent in asking for intercession, but not for saying that Mother Mary grants miracles herself.

Something worth pointing out here is that the cloth in the temple was torn in two when Jesus rose again. Jesus tells us we can approach God directly now.

Since when does what I said mean they have equal authority? They share information is all. So in fact it IS true that to ASK Mum really is to ask Dad - simply because what she knows, he knows. Because she tells him everything.

And if I were to need lunch money for school or what have you, I could ask her and obtain it from her directly, even if all the money she has was earned by Dad and she never earned any income of her own. So like my Mum, Mary does have SOME abilities and authority - as Jesus said in the parable of the faithful servants ‘I will put you in charge over many things’.

Secondly - yes the Veil in the Temple was torn. That signifies two things, firstly that the Jewish priesthood and law and ritual (especially the animal sacrifice that went on in the Temple) was done away with, secondly that Jesus WAS God, so God’s physical presence wasn’t restricted to the Holy of Holies in the Temple.

As for approaching God directly - every Jewish person prayed and prays directly to God just as we do, so that could always be done. No change there.

 

[HenryV]

John in Revelation had no problem seeing and hearing EVERYONE praising God - in heaven, on earth and under the earth - all at once, when God graciously granted to him to do so.

So I have no problem believing that Mary, through the granting of God’s power and grace, can hear the prayers of those who pray to her - which is not the same thing as being truly ‘omni’, since she’s not hearing, seeing or knowing absolutely everything!

And isn’t it indeed said that we shall be like God when we see Him as He is? Why not in this attribute of His then?

Mary does see and hear all her children, she is the mother of all.
She sees us in God.
The number of humans are not infinite.
Hail Mary, greater than you is only God.