Is Mary the Co-redeemer?

[Mannyfit75]

O.K. If Mary is in the Hierarchy, as the catholic church says, or was that you? Why did Jesus not say in Matt 28:19 "baptizing them in the name of the Father, Mother, Son and Holy Spirit? You said she was the Mother, now what?

When I read your post, I was like? Eh? Does he have a clue what he is talking about? Apparently, you don’t.

Mary is consider the Queen of Heaven because she is the Woman in Revelation 12:1 and that woman had a twelve crown on her head. Second, the woman gave birth to a male child, who will rule all nations, and he was taken up to his throne in heaven. This child is Jesus. So Mary is in heaven with her son.

Catholics only baptized, In the Name of the Father, And Of the Son, and Of the Holy Spirit.

Don’t come joining this forum with your Protestant bias about the Catholic Church. Apparently, you are clueless what the Catholic Church teaches. :tsktsk:

 

[Salamander]

When I read your post, I was like? Eh? Does he have a clue what he is talking about? Apparently, you don’t.

Mary is consider the Queen of Heaven because she is the Woman in Revelation 12:1 and that woman had a twelve crown on her head. Second, the woman gave birth to a male child, who will rule all nations, and he was taken up to his throne in heaven. This child is Jesus. So Mary is in heaven with her son.

Catholics only baptized, In the Name of the Father, And Of the Son, and Of the Holy Spirit.

Don’t come joining this forum with your Protestant bias about the Catholic Church. Apparently, you are clueless what the Catholic Church teaches. :tsktsk:

Uh, I’m not Protestant.

 

[Salamander]

I’m clueless huh? So tell me, where does this come from? The Bible or somewhere else. I’m sorry, but I’ll believe the Bible and its Word before I’ll believe the commentary below:

*491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854…

494 ... As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." ... 

495 ... the Church confesses that Mary is truly "Mother of God" (Theotokos). 

508 From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. "Full of grace," Mary is "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life. 

964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death"; it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion. ... enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her ... 

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son ..." The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection ... "In giving birth you kept your virginity... You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death" (Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.). 

968 "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the Saviour's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace." 

969 "... Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us gifts of eternal salvation. ... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." *  ---- none of these names is in the Bible....so where is this coming from?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Uh, I’m not Protestant.

You are a Protestant Christian. You aren’t Catholic Christian. You aren’t even Orthodox Christian. So what are you? A Protestant Christian. You believe that the Bible Alone is the sole authority and you believe in Faith Alone. If you believe those, then you are a Protestant.

 

[CEM]

No, not co-Redeemer, but Co-redemptrix, because she is female, not male - lol

The meaning of “co” is:

dictionary.reference.com/browse/co

Main Entry: co-
Function: prefix
1 : with : together : joint : jointly
2 a : associated in an action with another : fellow b : having a usually lesser share in duty or responsibility : alternate : deputy

This is the meaning (or “role”) of Mary’s “co” in co-redemptrix.

The proposed dogma would hold that “Mary is Co-Redemptrix (Co-operator in the Redemption) by her unique co-operation with God as the Woman, New Eve, Mother of the living. Assumed into heaven, Mary continues this saving office as Advocate and Mediatrix of all grace by her constant intercession to obtain for all men the gifts of salvation. Mary’s role is subordinate to and always dependent upon the essential and chief role of her Son.”

Although it is not Doctrine, many would like to see it become so. Mary’s “YES” to accepting the role and thus the suffering it entailed, on being the mother of Jesus, (God incarnate), made her a willing participant in the Salvation and Redemption of mankind. That is the meaning of “co”.

peace of Christ,
CEM

 

[Mannyfit75]

I’m clueless huh? So tell me, where does this come from? The Bible or somewhere else. I’m sorry, but I’ll believe the Bible and its Word before I’ll believe the commentary below:

*491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854…

494 ... As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." ... 

495 ... the Church confesses that Mary is truly "Mother of God" (Theotokos). 

508 From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. "Full of grace," Mary is "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life. 

964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death*"; it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion. ... enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her ... 

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son ..." The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection ... "In giving birth you kept your virginity... You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death" (Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.). 

968 "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the Saviour's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace." 

969 "... Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us gifts of eternal salvation. ... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."   ---- none of these names is in the Bible....so where is this coming from?

Yes, you are IGNORANT.

It comes from the Sacred Tradition of the Church. If you are not as ignorant as you claim, I do believe you are, you would know the three pillars of Catholicism.

Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Magisterial Authority. Many of the Marian beliefs are from Patristic sources; that is from the writings of the Early Church Fathers, the ECF themselves are not infallible but they bear witness to the common belief that Early Christians have following the death of the Last Apostles.

St. Polycarp, and St. Ignatius, and St. Clement of Rome were all taught by the Apostles. St. Polycarp and St. Ignatius were disciples of St. John the Apostle, St. Clement of Rome the Third Pope was ordained by St. Peter.

They in turn taught others like St. Justin Martyr, St. Ireneaus, and so forth.

The Church, as we Catholic Church believe is guided by the Holy Spirit, and in her past form Councils the first being the Council fo Jerusalem. Inspired by the Holy Spirit the Council did away with circumcision for the Gentiles, in the later Centuries, the Council again form another Church in response to a heresy called Arianism, which claimed Jesus is created being. The Council condemned it. In 451 AD, another heresy arose called Nectorianism, which denied Jesus divinity. In response they defined that Jesus is truly God and by doing so gave Mary the Title Theotokos, God bearer, or Mother of God because Mary is the Mother of Jesus and Jesus is God.

The Church guided by the Holy Spirit made Marian to process a belief that was common in ancient Christianity. All of the Marian doctrine are Christocentric. They all point to One Mediator, Jesus Christ.

There is no Church document that put Mary above her Son. None. Since Mary is a member of the Communion of Saints, it is fruitful to ask for her intercession, or ask her to pray for us. It is the same way, I ask other Christians to pray for me.

 

[Mannyfit75]

No, not co-Redeemer, but Co-redemptrix, because she is female, not male - lol

The meaning of “co” is:

dictionary.reference.com/browse/co

Main Entry: co-
Function: prefix
1 : with : together : joint : jointly
2 a : associated in an action with another : fellow b : having a usually lesser share in duty or responsibility : alternate : deputy

This is the meaning (or “role”) of Mary’s “co” in co-redemptrix.

The proposed dogma would hold that “Mary is Co-Redemptrix (Co-operator in the Redemption) by her unique co-operation with God as the Woman, New Eve, Mother of the living. Assumed into heaven, Mary continues this saving office as Advocate and Mediatrix of all grace by her constant intercession to obtain for all men the gifts of salvation. Mary’s role is subordinate to and always dependent upon the essential and chief role of her Son.”

Although it is not Doctrine, many would like to see it become so. Mary’s “YES” to accepting the role and thus the suffering it entailed, on being the mother of Jesus, (God incarnate), made her a willing participant in the Salvation and Redemption of mankind. That is the meaning of “co”.

peace of Christ,
CEM

Well, said. Co-Redemptrix is not dogmatic nor is Co-Redeemer…

 

[Ave_Maria_1]

Fr. Stefano M. Manelli explains Our Lady’s presence at the foot of the Cross with words from Lumen Gentium,

“Mary’s motherhood became a co-redemptive or sacrificial motherhood, because at the foot of the Cross she stood ‘enduring with her only begotten Son His intense suffering, associating herself with His sacrifice in her mother’s heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim which had been born of her’ (Lumen Gentium, no. 58).”
All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed (Academy of the Immaculate: 1995), 336.

YES, Our Lady is the co-redemptrix. We are able to enter into the great mystery of the redemption with the offering of our own prayers and sufferings as well which is what St. Paul meant when he said he was making up in his own body what was lacking in the sufferings of Christ. By that he meant his participation in the mystical body of Christ, not that there was anything lacking in the One Redemption won for us by Christ. But as members of His Mystical Body, we are to have our share too. Our Lady had the greatest share of any creature.

 

[Taliesin]

Why is this even an issue?

Can’t she be just a normal Christian, just like you and me? And then we leave it at that.

Why has Mary *ever *been an issue? What spirit is behind this thrust to put Mary in our face?:irish3:

 

[Taliesin]

YES, Our Lady is the co-redemptrix. We are able to enter into the great mystery of the redemption with the offering of our own prayers and sufferings as well which is what St. Paul meant when he said he was making up in his own body what was lacking in the sufferings of Christ. By that he meant his participation in the mystical body of Christ, not that there was anything lacking in the One Redemption won for us by Christ. But as members of His Mystical Body, we are to have our share too. Our Lady had the greatest share of any creature.

So I guess Paul is our Co-Redemptrix too. Ave Paulus!

 

[Taliesin]

Yes, you are IGNORANT.

It comes from the Sacred Tradition of the Church. If you are not as ignorant as you claim, I do believe you are, you would know the three pillars of Catholicism.

Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Magisterial Authority. …

The Church, as we Catholic Church believe is guided by the Holy Spirit, and in her past form Councils the first being the Council fo Jerusalem. Inspired by the Holy Spirit the Council did away with circumcision for the Gentiles, in the later Centuries, the Council again form another Church in response to a heresy called Arianism, which claimed Jesus is created being. The Council condemned it. In 451 AD, another heresy arose called Nectorianism, which denied Jesus divinity. In response they defined that Jesus is truly God and by doing so gave Mary the Title Theotokos, God bearer, or Mother of God because Mary is the Mother of Jesus and Jesus is God.

The Church guided by the Holy Spirit made Marian to process a belief that was common in ancient Christianity. All of the Marian doctrine are Christocentric. They all point to One Mediator, Jesus Christ.

There is no Church document that put Mary above her Son. None. Since Mary is a member of the Communion of Saints, it is fruitful to ask for her intercession, or ask her to pray for us. It is the same way, I ask other Christians to pray for me.

Be careful throwing stones. Nestorius never denied Jesus’s divinity. He wasn’t even *accused * of that. He was accused of saying there were two persons in Christ. But he never said that either. That was just someone’s supposedly reductio ad absurdum applied to Nestorius’s refusal to call Mary Theotokos.

Mary is *not *Theotokos. That would make her also God. Much less is she Co-redeemer. Give me a break!

 

[b2memphis]

It is only fruitful to ask for Mary’s intercession on our behalf if we intend our sin’s not to be heard by God.

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Col 3:17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

Tradition will not save you, only obedience to the Lord as we are commanded in the N.T.

Tradition, I think not!

 

[b2memphis]

you want to prove that for me? Just give me ONE clear reference that doesn’t include some catholic fiction.

 

[Stephen_C]

you want to prove that for me? Just give me ONE clear reference that doesn’t include some catholic fiction.

Oh please explain this Catholic fiction? (one post per fiction please) You are so anti-Catholic might as well say you are acting like a walking talking (and copy/pasting) Jack Chick track. Why the heck are you here? Showing Christian Charity is not one of them.

 

[b2memphis]

What I’m doing here is pointing out to how little you actually know about the Bible and how little of what you believe is supported by any scripture whatsoever.

 

[Stephen_C]

What I’m doing here is pointing out to how little you actually know about the Bible and how little of what you believe is supported by any scripture whatsoever.

Again please start a thread on each one of these Catholic “fictions” you are talking about. If that is what you are here for. You are right tough, I do know very little about **your interpretation **of the Bible. Fill us in.

 

[Potato1]

What I’m doing here is pointing out to how little you actually know about the Bible and how little of what you believe is supported by any scripture whatsoever.

PM me anytime. I am a biblical scholar and a Catholic, I can quote scripture like any evangelical. Bring it on.

 

[Taliesin]

Quick question: Is Mary rightly called the Mother of God?

Why or why not?

Thanks in advance. :tiphat:

Not rightly.
Like gives birth to like.
That would make her God.
Since God is spirit, To say she was the Mother of God means that her spirit supplied all the spiritual material necessary to spiritually grow God in her spiritual womb. Utter nonsense.

Nestorius was right.

Mark 3:33-35: “33 And he answered them, Who are my mother and my brothers? 34 And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”
So is whoever does the will of God the Mother of God, or the Brother of God, or the Sister of God?

 

[JoeyWarren]

Not rightly.

Is that your infallible interpretation? Or just a gut feeling?

Like gives birth to like.

hmmmmmm Mary gave birth to Jesus. So you are saying Jesus was only Human and not God?

That would make her God.

How so?

Since God is spirit,

Jesus was human, so Jesus is not God?

To say she was the Mother of God means that her spirit supplied all the spiritual material necessary to spiritually grow God in her spiritual womb.

So Jesus was not God then?

Utter nonsense.

Nope, everything you have said is utter nonsense and I not so sure your existence is not utter nonsense as well.

Nestorius was right.

In my honest opinon Nestorius is in need of asbestos underwear if my assumptions pan out.

 

[LilyM]

Not rightly.
Like gives birth to like.
That would make her God.
Since God is spirit, To say she was the Mother of God means that her spirit supplied all the spiritual material necessary to spiritually grow God in her spiritual womb. Utter nonsense.

Nestorius was right.

Mark 3:33-35: “33 And he answered them, Who are my mother and my brothers? 34 And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”
So is whoever does the will of God the Mother of God, or the Brother of God, or the Sister of God?

Bulldust. EVERY mother gives birth to a child that gets half of its DNA (physical matter) from its biological father, and its soul directly from God. So she gives birth to an being unlike to herself of which she supplied only half the physical material and none of the spiritual essence. Nonetheless the mother is the mother of that whole person, not just a half or a quarter of it.

You don’t call your mother ‘mother of half of me’ - and Queen Elizabeth II called her mother ‘Queen Mother’ regardless of the fact that her mother had little if anything to do personally with Elizabeth becoming Queen.