Is Mary the queen of heaven?

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And I love her and thank her from the bottom of my heart.
Her fiat means everything to me.
And it should mean something to everyone.
 
Hey, everybody. I need some help with this question. I need you to focus in here and examine this one particular, seemingly small issue within the larger question. Joeywarren, you posted in a great link. That is a great dialogue, and I enjoyed it, but I still need this particular question addressed.

When discussing Mary as the Queen of Heaven, the conversation will eventually get around to 1 Kings 2:19 and 20. When we point out that part of scripture we are basically arguing “Here, in scripture, is a basis for believing that you can authentically go to Mary with your petitions without offending Jesus.”

OK? Our claim is that you can go to Mary with petitions, without offending Jesus, and that the scripture supports that claim.

However, I can craft a counter argument that says scripture weakens, rather than strengthens, the claim.

The counter argument goes like this: *If 1 Kings 2:19-20 is presented as a demonstration of what happens to people who pray to the Queen Mother, then please observe the next five verses in which the petitioner is killed for his petitions.

If Bathsheba is the type of Mary, and Solomon the type of Jesus, then why is not Adoni’jah the type of a subject who petitions through the Queen Mother? And if he met an earthly demise from an earthly king then may we not expect eternal damnation from a King of Heaven and Earth when we pray to the Queen Mother?*

So how is this counter argument double-countered?

I will go so far as to give the beginnings of the answer, but I don’t know the full answer so we need an authority to weigh in here.

The double-counter, the second counter, or the counter prime argument here is probably a “but for” argument. That is it probably says “but for this Adoni’jah would have been granted his petition.” So the the counter prime argument must be something along the lines of: Adoni’jah was an exceptional case. A special condition existed here that is not true in the general case. You and I go to Mary with our petitions and our case is the general case and not the exceptional case. In the general case this is true, and 1 Kings 2:19-20 is the controlling language.

Furthermore, the X-Factor in the counter prime has probably got something to do with the gal that Adoni’jah wants to marry. Somehow she is probably tied up in the special case, so it is singular and unique to her situation. If that’s true then there is no way that the special case can apply to anyone today because nobody today is going to marry that girl.
What say ye all? What is the counter prime?***
 
First of one has to distinguish between the Earthly Kingdom of David and the Heavenly Kingdom of Jesus in Heaven.

Second, not every Queen Mother on earth will advice and petition with infallacy.

Third, not every Davidic King on earth will do everything infallably. Not every Davidic King on earth will do God’s will.

Fourth, Adonijah was not a very Holy man. One should first read all about Adonijah and what he did. In doing so you will find that he warranted the death.

Fifth, Mary in heaven who is in a perpetual state of infallacy just by her mere prescence in Heaven will not petition her Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, unwisely.

I hope this helps. This is best I can do on my limited knowledge.
 
JoeyWarren said:
Fourth, Adonijah was not a very Holy man. One should first read all about Adonijah and what he did. In doing so you will find that he warranted the death.

Fifth, Mary in heaven who is in a perpetual state of infallacy just by her mere prescence in Heaven will not petition her Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, unwisely.

I hope this helps. This is best I can do on my limited knowledge.
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👍 Ok, good. So here we begin to craft our counter argument, and, as I suspected, it starts right off with something about Adoni’jah. Something “special-casey” about him. He warranted the death, meaning his particular death I take it.

Also there is something special-casey about Mary in Heaven and her unique perspective on things from there. So we are beginning to make a distinction between Adoni’jah’s case and anyone else’s.

Let’s keep going until we can be rigorously complete. Where do we go from here?
 
I cannot help you further on this. You will have to rely upon those that more skilled, but I am working on it.🙂 👍 :cool:
 
Just a thought here…

Would Adonijah’s petition have even been heard had it not have come from the queen mother?
He was not a good man. His head may well have been on the chopping block long before the petition was made.

Just a thought, but given what we know of the man, it seems to me that it is a stretch to believe he was killed for the petition when there were so many other things that deserved death.
In fact, it says something that the petition went from queen mother to the king in the first place.

Your Protestant friends would be making several unwarrented assumptions if the claim is made that the petition is why he was put to death.
 
Regina Caeli (One of my favorite prayers)
This is one of four Marian antiphons, traditionally said or sung after night prayer, immediately before going to sleep. It is said throughout Easter. The Regina caeli may also be said in place of the Angelus during Easter.

**Queen of Heaven **

V. Queen of Heaven, rejoice, alleluia.
R. For He whom you did merit to bear, alleluia.
V. Has risen, as he said, alleluia.
R. Pray for us to God, alleluia.
V. Rejoice and be glad, O Virgin Mary, alleluia.
R. For the Lord has truly risen, alleluia.

Let us pray. O God, who gave joy to the world through the resurrection of Thy Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, grant we beseech Thee, that through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, His Mother, we may obtain the joys of everlasting life. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

Regina caeli

V. Regina caeli, laetare, alleluia.
R. Quia quem meruisti portare, alleluia.
V. Resurrexit, sicut dixit, alleluia.
R. Ora pro nobis Deum, alleluia.

V. Gaude et laetare, Virgo Maria, alleluia.
R. Quia surrexit Dominus vere, alleluia.

Oremus. Deus, qui per resurrectionem Filii tui, Domini nostri Iesu Christi, mundum laetificare dignatus es: praesta, quaesumus; ut per eius Genetricem Virginem Mariam, perpetuae capiamus gaudia vitae. Per eundem Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.

My Queen (through the graces she dispenses from her Son, Consecration a la De Montfort) saved me from some terrible entrenched sins. Hail my Holy Queen!
 
BillyBayou613 said:
Do Catholic believe her to be queen of heaven?

BB
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YES, When Mary is described in Revelations 12, she is given many royal attributes: clothed with the sun, a crown of twelve stars, the moon under her feet, etc. These tend to underscore Mary’s queenly role, but they by no means are the primary source of the title “Queen of Heaven.” The primary source is the Old Testament Davidic kingdom. Jesus is the fulfillment of the promises made to Kind David and the Israelites that David’s dynasty would rule forever. The messiah had to be from the line of David in order to assume David’s kingship. But in David’s monarchy, the queen was not the king’s wife. The queen was the king’s mother (1 Kings 2:19, Jeremiah 13:18, et. al.) From this perspective, Mary is “Queen of Heaven” by the simple fact that she is the mother of the King of Heaven. (See also This Rock, Dec. 1998)
 
jben said:
Hey, everybody. I need some help with this question. I need you to focus in here and examine this one particular, seemingly small issue within the larger question. Joeywarren, you posted in a great link. That is a great dialogue, and I enjoyed it, but I still need this particular question addressed.

When discussing Mary as the Queen of Heaven, the conversation will eventually get around to 1 Kings 2:19 and 20. When we point out that part of scripture we are basically arguing “Here, in scripture, is a basis for believing that you can authentically go to Mary with your petitions without offending Jesus.”
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The subject varies so greatly to the requested information that perhaps another thread should be started with a more accurate subject…
 
vz71 said:
Just a thought here…

Would Adonijah’s petition have even been heard had it not have come from the queen mother?

Your Protestant friends would be making several unwarrented assumptions if the claim is made that the petition is why he was put to death.
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That’s a good point. Good thinking. This is why I love this forum, because we can collaborate.

One thing that I am keying in on is Verse 22, where Solomon notes that Adoni’jah is his older brother. In fact, as I read around a bit more, Adoni’jah was born in Hebron, the fourth son born to David in Hebron, and born of a woman named Haggith. So he is Solomon’s half brother, not born to Bathsheba.

Also, in 1 Kings 1 the story opens up with David old and, apparantly with a case of the chills. You’ve seen old people always wanting the heat cranked up? This appears to be going on. Verses 1 - 4 describe that, in an effort to keep David warm, they took a beautiful girl, stripped her down and sat her on David’s lap underneath the blankets, although there was no sex apparantly. All of this is sort of my interpretation, but what else does this sound like?

Anyway, this pretty girl is no other than Ab’ishag the Shu’nammite, who is exactly the same person that Adoni’jah wants to marry in verse 17 of Chapter 2.

A little more, Adoni’jah jumped the gun a little bit back in Chapter 1. You’ve heard of measuring for new drapes? When you are moving on to another job and some insolent jerk shows up in your office and wants to measure the windows for drapes? Adoni’jah engages in this sort of behavior in Chapter 1, by cementing a political faction that included the high priest and the General of the Military, General Jo’ab who was one of David’s big time advisors and cabinet members.

So Adoni’jah had a claim to the throne, and tried to secure it. Then David gets word of this, abdicates and sets Solomon on the throne just before he dies. He does this with Zadok the Priest and Nathan the Prophet in attendance giving the annointment to Solomon. When David dies we’re primed up for a succession struggle.

Adoni’jah and his faction vs. Solomon and his faction, but Solomon has the superior claim because David himself passed on the title to Solomon.

Now Adoni’jah claims to come in peace to Bathsheba, see Chapter 2 verse 13. And he wants to get married?!? Ok, well…married to who?

Well how about the naked chick who was “warming” King David back in Chapter 1?

Is this mere coincidence? Unlikely. Something is going on here that Solomon finds unacceptable, and this doesn’t look like an innocent request by Adoni’jah, but I don’t know what all is happening. I don’t know all of the subtlety here.

Who can give some background or additional information?
 
vz71 said:
It sounds like you have enough background information to mount a good defense of petitions made to Mary.

What more are you looking for?
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We’re not there yet. We need more rigour. We can see that Adoni’jah isn’t exactly the innocent sort, but what is he plotting here? Why did he ask for Abi’shag? Why not someone else?

And by the way, what is this business about Adoni’jah “grabbing hold of the horns of the alter” back in Chapter 1, verses 50 and 51? What is *that *all about?

Something definately smells fishy about Adoni’jah. He’s shiftless and conniving. But lots of people are shiftless and conniving and they are not discouraged from going to Our Lady in prayer.

So far the best argument that we can make to OPBaS is that “the shiftless and conniving shouldn’t go to Our Lady in prayer because they’ll end up dead,” and that is not a true statement. We know that those are exactly the people who *can most *go to her in prayer.

What is Adoni’jah’s special circumstance? We need to find that.
 
jben said:
We’re not there yet. We need more rigour. We can see that Adoni’jah isn’t exactly the innocent sort, but what is he plotting here? Why did he ask for Abi’shag? Why not someone else?

And by the way, what is this business about Adoni’jah “grabbing hold of the horns of the alter” back in Chapter 1, verses 50 and 51? What is *that *all about?

Something definately smells fishy about Adoni’jah. He’s shiftless and conniving. But lots of people are shiftless and conniving and they are not discouraged from going to Our Lady in prayer.

So far the best argument that we can make to OPBaS is that “the shiftless and conniving shouldn’t go to Our Lady in prayer because they’ll end up dead,” and that is not a true statement. We know that those are exactly the people who *can most *go to her in prayer.

What is Adoni’jah’s special circumstance? We need to find that.
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I think your letting yourself get sidetracked here.

I do not believe it important the he was killed shortly after the petition. He was a political rebel that sought to overthrow the legal king and take the kingdom as his own…twice.
I find it odd that he was able to talk to the queen mother without being killed on the spot.

What was his special cicumstance?
His life.
He led a life worthy of death. And yet his petition was heard.
I do not believe there is any real significance to his petition other then to show that he had not given up efforts to sieze the throne.

The wages of sin is death, the wages of a petition are not.
 
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jben:
When we point out that part of scripture we are basically arguing “Here, in scripture, is a basis for believing that you can authentically go to Mary with your petitions without offending Jesus.”

OK? Our claim is that you can go to Mary with petitions, without offending Jesus, and that the scripture supports that claim.
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The Adonijah debate’s a good one, but the lines above seem like the crux here. Some Protestants are probably knee-jerk hostile toward such arguments, but many, incl. me, are simply curious about the implications. To wit:
  1. I’ve always laboured under the impression that the entire life, death, and resurrection of Christ was, among other things, a way of becoming able to approach God the Father with our petitions, through His Son, perfectly. I tend to think of Jesus as the last Person I’d need to make any sort of end-run around, and going to His Mother, however glorified she may be in Heaven, feels precisely like that. No sarcasm or disrespect intended, but do Catholics believe in some system of internal Heavenly politics that I’m missing?
  2. Are there some petitions that Catholics think Mary the Queen would be likelier to listen to than her Son would? If so, which? what kind?
  3. As Queen of Heaven, is there some function that Mary carries out that the Triune God, in any of His Persons, doesn’t, or won’t? If so, which?
 
vz71 said:
I think your letting yourself get sidetracked here.

I do not believe it important the he was killed shortly after the petition. He was a political rebel that sought to overthrow the legal king and take the kingdom as his own…twice.
I find it odd that he was able to talk to the queen mother without being killed on the spot.

What was his special cicumstance?
His life.
He led a life worthy of death. And yet his petition was heard.
I do not believe there is any real significance to his petition other then to show that he had not given up efforts to sieze the throne.

The wages of sin is death, the wages of a petition are not.
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Le_Cracquere said:
The Adonijah debate’s a good one, but the lines above seem like the crux here. Some Protestants are probably knee-jerk hostile toward such arguments, but many, incl. me, are simply curious about the implications. To wit:
  1. I’ve always laboured under the impression that the entire life, death, and resurrection of Christ was, among other things, a way of becoming able to approach God the Father with our petitions, through His Son, perfectly. I tend to think of Jesus as the last Person I’d need to make any sort of end-run around, and going to His Mother, however glorified she may be in Heaven, feels precisely like that. No sarcasm or disrespect intended, but do Catholics believe in some system of internal Heavenly politics that I’m missing?
  2. Are there some petitions that Catholics think Mary the Queen would be likelier to listen to than her Son would? If so, which? what kind?
  3. As Queen of Heaven, is there some function that Mary carries out that the Triune God, in any of His Persons, doesn’t, or won’t? If so, which?
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Good questions here. First of all, you use the term “end run.” Catholic teaching does not imply that any end runs need to be made. We can and do go straight to Jesus with anything on our hearts.

But if I ask you to pray for me you then know that I am also going to Jesus in my prayer, and not only to you in my prayer. For a “prayer” is only a form of request, and not strictly a form of worship as the word is often used.

And you wouldn’t suppose that I am making an end run to try and get something passed in some celestial parliamentary strategy or clever manipulation of the “Heavenly Rules of Order” so to speak.

Also the term Heavenly Politics: No, not Heavenly Politics, but more like family relationship. We do use the term “Heavenly Court” because Jesus is a King, but that is a metaphor. It’s much closer to supper conversation really at “the table of the LORD.”

So for questions #1 and #2 there is nothing more going on than talking to mom, or a brother or sister in the case of other saints, or friends here on Earth.

As for Question #3, a role played by Mary that isn’t touched upon by the Triune God? Good question here, but we’d have to get into semantics to answer it, and that would bring up more debate than anything else. We might start talking about Mary the Mother of God, as opposed to God the Father or God the Son or God the Paraclete. But it’s a little academic.

I think that the thrust of your question is “What’s the point of praying to Mary when you can pray to Jesus himself?” To which my answer is similar to above. It’s just talkin’ with Mama.

Any thoughts on Adoni’jah?
 
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Laurel:
Mary was a perpetual virgin and she was assumed, body and soul, into heaven shortly after her death. Don’t just take my work on this, it is stated in the following…( Matt. 1:24,25; 13:54-56; Mk. 6:3; Jn. 7:5), (doctrine of the “Assumption of the Virgin Mary,” declared by Pope Pius XII in 1950).
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Matthew 1:24-25
24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Matthew 13:54-56
54 He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers? “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? “And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

Mark 6:3
3 “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him.

John 7:5
5 For not even His brothers were believing in Him.Don’t those verses speak more to Mary having had other children, and not at all about a body and soul assumption into heaven?
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Laurel:
Therefore, the only answer can be yes she is the Queen Of Heaven.
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There is a lot of talk about a “Queen Mother,” and about a “Queen of Heaven” on this thread. Now some Queen Mothers were good, and others not so good; as far as the Queen of Heaven, she is never good, and Israel, according to Jerermiah, is punished for their devotion to her; and if one allows scripture to interpret scripture…

Also, in the NT, there are only three queens mentioned, as I recall: the Queen of the South, mentioned twice; and the queen of the Ethiopians, mentioned once; and a queen in Rev. 18 which is most probably “Babylon.”

Furthermore, there are no texts which refer to Mary as either “Queen Mother,” or “Queen of Heaven.”

Perhaps that is because there is only a King in heaven? :hmmm:
 
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