Is masculinity/femininity soul deep?

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teach us the holy infallible truths of God and His true nature and the true nature of creation’s men and women and their . . . utterly different . . . yet complimentary natures . . . and His wonderful plan for the salvation of the souls of both . . . men . . . and women . . .
Please look at these URLs.

usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html

edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/me…aza.gender.id/

Eppur si muove

What guidance is there in your beautiful and moving words for those people? Those born eunuchs of their mothers womb?
 
+The word “soul” is revealed and used abundantly and exclusively throughout Sacred :bible1: Scripture . . . God’s Holy Word . . . always in reference to mankind . . . whom alone amongst all creation . . . **God **created in His glorious image . . . it isn’t used in reference to any other created living thing . . .

. . . :coffeeread: . . .

:bible1: 1 Genesis 2:7
And the **Lord God **formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.​

*In the passage of Sacred :bible1: Scripture below man is clearly defined as a “soul” separate and of a higher order than all other creatures here on earth . . . *

:bible1: Genesis 9:8-17​

8 Thus also said God to Noe, and to his sons with him,
9 Behold I will establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you: 10 And with every living **soul **that is with you, as well in all birds as in cattle and beasts of the earth, that are come forth out of the ark, and in all the beasts of the earth.

11 **I **will establish my covenant with you, and all flesh shall be no more destroyed with the waters of a flood, neither shall there be from henceforth a flood to waste the earth. 12 And God said: This is the sign of the covenant which I give between me and you, and to every living soul that is with you, for perpetual generations. 13 I will set my bow in the clouds, and it shall be the sign of a covenant between me, and between the earth. 14 And when I shall cover the sky with clouds, my bow shall appear in the clouds: 15 And **I **will remember my covenant with you, and with every living soul that beareth flesh: and there shall no more be waters of a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 And the bow shall be in the clouds, and **I **shall see it, and shall remember the everlasting covenant, that was made between **God **and every living soul of all flesh which is upon the earth.

17 And **God **said to Noe: This shall be the sign of the covenant which **I **have established between me and all flesh upon the earth.​
****CATECHISM
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
Article 1
“I Believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth”****
II. "Body and Soul but Truly One"
**363 **
In Sacred :bible1: Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.
**364 **
The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232
. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Blessed Lord+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+
Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!

:signofcross:
 
So the body is always either male or female, without exception - and there can be no exception on theological grounds - except where it, er, isn’t. But we ignore those.
The OP was about souls (unless I’m very much mistaken. In your case, you stated: “My Gender Identity has always been female”. If the theory of gendered souls is correct (not saying I know) then your gender identity must not be tied to your outward appearance.

Yes, I do think the fact of intersex issues would shed some light on the topic. As far as the Church arriving at any official theology on the matter is going to take someone who is dealing with these issues to postulate it.
 
What guidance is there in your beautiful and moving words for those people? Those born eunuchs of their mothers womb?
+As we come into contact with our wonderful God’s creation all around us . . . the heavens, the earth, the stars, the sun, moon, light, darkness, plants, trees, all the earth’s and the sea’s living creatures, etc., . . . upon observation of the external and careful study of the inner construction of all these created things . . . there is revealed to be an absolute infinity of infinitely complex interworking living patterns making up the beautiful perfection of creation on every level in everything around us . . . and flowing throughout creation . . . *plantlife, trees, and flowers, etc., as well as animal life, etc. *. . . are revealed the distinctive complimentary separate procreative traits of male and female . . . which reach their highest and most extraordinary full revelation in the creation of mankind by God in His image . . .

However . . . also revealed . . . through observation and study comes an awareness of the tragic reality and revelation . . . that our world about us is terribly broken and incredibly wounded, diseased, damaged, disordered and confused . . . and we as human beings living as part of this world . . . are part and parcel of this broken woundedness and disorder and damage . . . and the understanding that life on this earth has clearly separated itself and deviated from God’s perfection of creation on every level is abundantly and oftimes tragically evident . . .

As Christians . . . by the **Grace of God **through Divine Revelation . . . brought to us through our Apostolic Holy Roman Catholic Church . . . we learn this confusion, brokeness, destruction and disorder was caused by the grave . . . mortal sin . . . of prideful disobedience on the part of our many centuries back grandparents way back in the beginning of finite time . . . Adam and Eve . . . whose sin introduced into the heritage of the soul of man . . . and all life on earth overwhich mankind was given dominion by God . . . the wages sin . . . death . . . utter separation from God Who is the very Source of all life, love, goodness, peace, health and holy order . . . *

:bible1: Wisdom 2:23-24
23 For God created man incorruptible, and to the image of his own likeness he made him. 24 But by the envy of the devil, death came into the world:​
*There are countless multitudes of disorders plaguing mankind in their fallen sinful state here on earth . . . gender identity disorder is just one of the many . . . however God in mercy and love and has made His saving grace available to all of mankind . . . whatsoever state they may be in . . . below is a quote from St. Augustine who eloquently shares this beautiful truth . . .
. . . :coffeeread: . . .
All is contained in these brief sentences:
:bible1: Matthew 22:37-40
Love the **Lord your God **with all your heart ❤️, and with all your soul, and with all your strength: and love your neighbour as yourself;​
for these are the words in which the Lord, when on earth, gave an epitome of religion, saying in the gospel, On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Daily advance, then, in this love, both by praying and by well-doing, that through the help of Him, who enjoined it on you, and whose gift it is, it may be nourished and increased, until, being perfected, it render you perfect. For this is the love which, as the apostle says, is shed abroad in our hearts ❤️ by the Holy Ghost, which is given unto us. Romans 5:5 This is the fulfilling of the law; Romans 13:10 this is the same love by which faith works, of which he says again, Neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith, which works by love. ***Galatians 5:6 ***
  • In this love, then, all our holy fathers, patriarchs, prophets, and apostles pleased God.
  • In this all true martyrs contended against the devil even to the shedding of blood, and because in them it neither waxed cold nor failed, they became conquerors.
  • In this all true believers daily make progress, seeking to acquire not an earthly kingdom, but the kingdom of heaven …
  • And let us not despair of the fulfilment of such a great promise because it is exceeding great, but rather believe that we shall receive it because** He **who has promised it is exceeding great, as the blessed Apostle John says:
:bible1: ** John 3:2​
**
Now are we the sons of God; and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when** He **shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
God bless . . .
. . . all for Jesus+
. . . Sacred Heart of Jesus+
. . . have mercy+
:signofcross:
 
and flowing throughout creation . . . *plantlife, trees, and flowers, etc., as well as animal life, etc. *. . . are revealed the distinctive complimentary separate procreative traits of male and female . . .
Clownfish.
Clownfish live in small groups inhabiting a single anemone. The group consists of a breeding pair, which cohabit with a few non-reproductive, “pre-pubescent”, and smaller male clownfish. When the female dies, the dominant male changes sex and becomes the female.[This life history strategy is known as sequential hermaphroditism. Because clownfish are all born as males, they are protandrous hermaphrodites (pro=first; androus=male).
Wrasses
Individuals are born as males or females, but if they are born males, they are not born as terminal phase males. Females and initial phase males can become terminal phase males.
Naked Mole Rats (who have 3 sexes)
There is dismorphism between the queen, her breeding males, and two kind of workers. They have a complex social structure in which only one female (the queen) and one to three males reproduce, while the rest of the members of the colony function as workers. The queen and her some breeding males are able to breed at one year of age. Workers are steriles, with smaller focusing on food research and works, while larger are more reactive in case of attack.The naked mole rat is one of the two species of mammals that exhibit eusociality. This eusocial organisation social structure, similar to that found in ants, termites, and some bees and wasps, is very rare among mammals.
These are not “disordered”, they are as the Almighty made them. I won’t go into the various plants, bacteria etc that have even more complicated biology when it comes to sex. The Angler Fish and Banana Slug come to mind.

Creation is far more strange and wonderful than a simplistic division into distinctly “male” or distinctly “female” can describe.
[/quote]
 
I am perfectly willing to accept that such conditions as my own are abnormal. They’re certainly unusual, and whether you consider them “birth defects” such as spina bifida, or a “natural variation” such as blue eyes is more a matter of opinion than anything else.

I’d put them in the same category as colour-blindness - in general, a disability, though sometimes advantageous. Whatever, it matters not.

You mentioned “Gender Identity Disorder” - do we not have the obligation to correct this situation? As we now know that these are people whose brains are female, while the rest of the natomy is male - or the reverse - should we not provide them with help to align the two? And since we cannot change the brain without physically destroying it, we must change the body.

[BIBLEDRB]John 9:1-3[/BIBLEDRB]

One more thing. The Bible provides evidence that there are those neither male nor female, and these will, if they do the right thing, be offered a special place in the hereafter, and “a name better than sons or daughters”.

[BIBLEDRB]Isaiah 56:3-5[/BIBLEDRB]
 
I am perfectly willing to accept that such conditions as my own are abnormal. They’re certainly unusual, and whether you consider them “birth defects” such as spina bifida …

You mentioned “Gender Identity Disorder” - do we not have the obligation to correct this situation? As we now know that these are people whose brains are female, while the rest of the natomy is male - or the reverse - should we not provide them with help to align the two? …

:bible1: John 9:1-3
1 And Jesus passing by saw a man blind from birth …

One more thing. The Bible provides evidence that there are those neither male nor female, and these will, if they do the right thing, be offered a special place in the hereafter, and “a name better than sons or daughters”.

:bible1: Isaiah 56:3-5
3 And let not the son of the stranger, that adhereth to the Lord, speak, saying: The Lord will divide and separate me from his people. And let not the eunuch say: Behold I am a dry tree. …​
+In all charity and peace . . .

First . . . within Catholicism and indeed the entire wealth of Judeo/Christian orthodox teachings over the centuries. . . in acceptance and in accordance with . . . **Divine :bible1: Revelation **. . . there is absolutely no such state within God’s creation of human kind such as . . . “neither male nor female” . . . such a teaching/understanding is a delusion and is a false teaching . . . which in Christendom is considered as “heresy” . . . and please let’s stay on topic . . . out of respect for the original poster and the original subject of this posted thread . . . *and Catholic Forum Answers rules and encouragement * . . . lets keep this discussion within the guiding parameters set in the original post . . . keeping this thread discussion of the masculine and feminine relevant to **God’s **creation of the soul of mankind . . . the scope of which subject is vast in and of itself . . .

Second . . . attempting to apply the word “eunuch” to a an individual suffering from gender identity disorder is a misappropriation and misapplication of the term “eunuch” . . . and is completely in error . . . neither in Sacred :bible1: Scripture, nor in Church Tradition, **nor **in the teachings of Catholic Church is there anywhere equated the term “eunuch” to anything other than . . . the state of celibacy . . .
  • which can occur in the physical plane where an individual is rendered . . . *for whatever reason *. . . unable to procreate . . . or . . .
  • which can occur on the spiritual plane where . . . by** God’s grace . . . an individual chooses of their own free will . . . grounded in a life circumstances, i.e. singles, widowers, widows . . . to embrace a celibate and chaste lifestyle . . . which condition is most often temporary rather than permanent . . . to God be the glory . . . or because of permanent choices made to embrace the celebate lifestyle as a servant of **God **. . . such as the willing holy solemn vows made by Catholic priests and religious within the Body of Christ . . . our most holy wonderful Apostolic Holy Roman Catholic Church . . . to forward the Work of God . . . the salvation of mankind . . . *and as the word is used within Christianity . . . such celibate men and women never lose their created male or female complimentary identities . . . whether their chaste celibacy is enforced because of circumstances . . . or chosen as a permanent state of life to be lived by the grace of God . . . *
    Third . . . God has provided a complete answer, cure and salvation for all the ills human kind . . . men and women . . .
    :bible1: Matthew 6:32​

    For after all these things do the heathens seek. For your Father knoweth that you have need of all these things.

:bible1: Matthew 6:33
Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you.

:bible1: Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.​

I highly recommend that you . . . who have come as a proclaimed agnostic among God’s Catholic children here at CAF . . . go and talk with one of God’s Catholic priests about the gracious . . . **Holy Sacrament of Baptism **. . . which when obediently and lovingly embraced and participated in with Faith is a . . . whole life changing . . . soul saving . . . source of love and life experience . . . and through which God’s grace is made available to the soul to teach and cure and bring it into understanding and conformity with the holy things and holy ways and holy thoughts of God . . . *which are always and ever will be . . . vastly higher . . . than fallen sinful man’s ways . . . and thoughts . . . *
. . . all for Jesus+
. . . Sacred Heart ❤️ of Jesus+
. . . have mercy+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Mary+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+
 
Second . . . attempting to apply the word “eunuch” to a an individual suffering from gender identity disorder is a misappropriation and misapplication of the term “eunuch” . . . and is completely in error . . . neither in Sacred :bible1: Scripture, nor in Church Tradition, **nor **in the teachings of Catholic Church is there anywhere equated the term “eunuch” to anything other than . . . the state of celibacy .
First clause:
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 19:12[/BIBLEDRB]

For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb

In an agrarian society, it would be impossible not to notice freemartins and other intersex conditions in livestock. It would also be impossible not to notice similar physicial conditions in humans.

The second clause refers to physical castration. I can think of no biblical scholarship or exegesis that says otherwise. The third clause though refers to celibacy, and it is clear that it refers to that rather than auto-castration (pace Origen’s Heresy) from the context of prceeding and succeeding verses, which are all about those permitted to marry.

Today, through autopsies and using MRI imaging, we can determine that Transsexuals - those with Gender Identity Disorder (soon to be renamed Gender Incongruence to reflect its anatomical origin) are a form of Intersex too. Such people are born with partly feminised anatomy, partly masculinised anatomy.

See for example the many hundreds of papers on the subject, dealing with experiments on animals, and autopsies and radiological of humans:. Some examples;

Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;

Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041

Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.

A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.

With respect, I think that we are on topic. And I deeply appreciate your insight here, and beg forgiveness for any upset to the civil and polite discourse that has been the hallmark of this thread.
. . . there is absolutely no such state within God’s creation of human kind such as . . . “neither male nor female” . . . such a teaching/understanding is a delusion and is a false teaching . . . which in Christendom is considered as “heresy” . . .
Please give your sources for this. While this is a popular opinion, one obviously shared by His Holiness, I’ve consulted canon lawyers and there has been no statement as far as I know by the Magisterium on the subject. I assume you are referring purely to the times before the hereafter, as there is an obvious contradiction otherwise.

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 3:28[/BIBLEDRB]

To accuse someone of Heresy without just cause would seem to me to be inadvertantly verging on bearing false witness. However, I’m certain that there was no malice involved, quite the contrary. You wished to point out my error - as you perceived it. You may well be right, but please give me the evidence of that, so I may see the error of my ways.

I appreciate the charitable way you phrased your admonition. It is why I said “verged on”, as I think you are blameless here.

You have not addressed my objections though, and explained how the biological phenomena I adduced can be coerced to fit into your theological framework. Hence my phrase, Eppur si muove.
 
Again, please can someone - anyone - explain how such biological facts can be coerced into a theological framework of a strict division between male and female under Natural Law.
 
Again, please can someone - anyone - explain how such biological facts can be coerced into a theological framework of a strict division between male and female under Natural Law.
It’s very simple. Each created thing has a nature. Every species doesn’t have the same nature regarding sex. That’s fine because every species has its own nature to begin with. Human nature has a natural distinction between the sexes. Any human who does not fall into one of these categories according to its normal meaning in every way, is some way deformed (just as we would say of someone who is born without a limb). From what I understand of the science, such a person is still “more” male or female. I could be wrong, but even then the exception proves the rule. Everyone will admit that such persons are not the norm but are actually deformed in some way. That’s not to degrade their dignity as human persons, but it’s simply a fact. I assume that moral theologians have addressed this issue at length, though I have to admit I haven’t read much about it. I would assume that such persons are called to a life of celibacy.
 
I think on the final judgement day we will find a few people who we “knew” were one sex and gender suddenly appearing the opposite. I am not talking those who went through the transition, but those who suppressed their inner self.
 
It’s very simple. Each created thing has a nature. Every species doesn’t have the same nature regarding sex. That’s fine because every species has its own nature to begin with. Human nature has a natural distinction between the sexes. Any human who does not fall into one of these categories according to its normal meaning in every way, is some way deformed (just as we would say of someone who is born without a limb). From what I understand of the science, such a person is still “more” male or female. I could be wrong, but even then the exception proves the rule. Everyone will admit that such persons are not the norm but are actually deformed in some way. That’s not to degrade their dignity as human persons, but it’s simply a fact. I assume that moral theologians have addressed this issue at length, though I have to admit I haven’t read much about it. I would assume that such persons are called to a life of celibacy.
“Some are born eunuchs”, perhaps ought to be the basis for understanding this?🤷 I know it must not be an easy thing to live with, but there is a rudimentary start to develop a better understanding of theological issues and intersexuality here.
 
The sensus plenior of scripture offers some potential understanding.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The word used for soul comes from the root ‘wax cold’.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The spirit gives life. The piercing of the word can tell in an instant if there is waxing cold/dieing, or spirit/life. This is confirmed here:

Eze 18:4 … the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

So the soul, as mentioned by others is connected to the body and created with it. It is a part of our fallen nature. The Spirit gives us life.

Gender identity in body and soul would ideally be the same, but we live in a fallen world. The condition will disappear when we become ‘like Him’, since in the spirit there is no male or female (Ga 3:28).

There is no sexuality in heaven since Jesus plainly teaches there is no marriage in heaven. The church is the bride of Christ.

So how do we treat the ‘intesexed’? the same as everyone else, with non-judgmental love and compassion. How does the ‘intersexed’ properly relate in gender roles? Either celibacy or carefully choosing one partner for life like everyone else.

Marriage is of the flesh. It ends at death.

However, there are many claiming gender identity problems when the fact is that they desire fornication with multiple partners. They should be treated the same as heterosexual fornicators… also with non-judgmental love and compassion, as we remember our own sin against Christ.
 
Again, please can someone - anyone - explain how such biological facts can be coerced into a theological framework of a strict division between male and female under Natural Law.
A strict biological framework for humans, I think you mean. No one has said that plants and animals must all fall into this pattern - clearly they don’t.

I am not sure why you think that this is a problem any more than many other issues where human beings fall outside of what is considered normative, physically speaking. Humans are considered rational by nature to, but some people are never able to come to that stage of development.

An interesting question is will the soul of someone with some sort of intersexed condition, or some other biologically based condition, will still reflect that. I think the answer is simply that we don’t know. It seems clear that our memories and the experiences that shape us will stay with us. I think it is clear too that we will be in some way made perfect, and healed of our ills. But what is an ill? Beyond that, I don’t think we can speculate. I’m not sure it is wise either - it can be dangerous to try to pin down these things that have been left vague.
 
However, there are many claiming gender identity problems when the fact is that they desire fornication with multiple partners.
Really? I had no idea ! Can you tell me where to read up about this ? Does it say why having gender identity problems might facilitate this?
 
I am bumping this thread in light of what Pope Francis said a couple of months ago:

“A great relationship with the Blessed Virgin helps us to have a great relationship with the Church: they are both mothers… You know the text of Saint Isaac of Stella [monk and theologian of the twelfth century]: what can be said of Mary can be said of the Church and also of our soul. All three are feminine, all three are mothers, all three give life. Our relationship with the Virgin is the relationship of a son.”

See at aleteia.org/en/religion/article/pope-francis-if-you-dont-want-mary-as-your-mother-you-shall-have-her-as-your-stepmother-5801135839379456 .
 
To add my thoughts on the issue, I tend to believe that gender is NOT soul deep.

On the one side, we have arguments that “the soul is the form of the body”, and the fact that individuals will be resurrected into a human body after Judgment Day. We also have arguments about Holy Orders and the indelible stamp that such a sacrament marks only on the souls of men, and not on women.

On the other side, we have the symbolic imagery of all human souls as constituting potential brides for Jesus, and for the imagery of the entire Church itself as being this bride. To this there are mystics such as Isaac of Stella who apparently believed that the human soul was feminine.

I generally agree with what another poster wrote above about gender being a fluid and complex concept that has different meanings depending upon context. I think male and female gender roles are something holy that we are called to maintain, even as it takes some active energy to maintain them and not devolve into “natural” blurring of these lines as you see in prison culture, or in Sodom and Gomorrah. Just because traditional gender roles are somewhat “artificial,” that doesn’t mean they aren’t worth maintaining. All lawful order takes energy to maintain so long as we remain in our fallen state.

But that doesn’t really answer the question about the underlying reality of the human soul, and to get more to the point on that issue, I would refer to Galatians 3:27-28, where it is written: “For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

True, we shall have resurrected bodies, but if the sacrament of marriage no longer holds in the afterlife, and if nobody is having sex in the afterlife, then what does it mean to retain gender if we are all both masculine and feminine in relation to Christ? (Masculine in terms of being one with Him, and feminine in terms of being obedient to Him.)

Angels are spiritual creatures that sometimes take bodily form, but presumably without sex organs. Will glorified bodies have sex organs? I don’t even know. Who does?

As for the sacramental mark on male priests, I tend to think this does not necessarily imply a gendered soul in the afterlife, anymore than the sacrament of marriage, or the Old Testament sacrament of circumcision, implied a gendered a soul. As is written in Colossians 3:9-11: “Stop lying to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed, for knowledge, in the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian,* slave, free; but Christ is all and in all.”

I am not completely sure of my own opinion here, but I do think it would surprise me a little bit to see gender roles for the saints in heaven. Gender roles are necessary for governing the family unit and procreating, but with those ordinary events no longer occurring, and with their being no longer any need for masculine rules and order (because everyone will have an immediate beatific vision of Christ such that masculine intermediaries of authority will no longer be necessary), I just don’t see how gender would make any sense as a human attribute that would extend into eternity.
 
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