Is math "massless"?

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Math being and abstraction has no mass, although our intellects are extrinsically dependent on the brain to supply sense data. Extrinsic means that the intellect in knowing doesn’t need the brain to know, but in it’s present mode of existence it depends on matter, or the brain because of our union of body and soul. The intellect separated from the body is completely open to knowledge without the restriction of matter. It is infused directly by God.
Now we labor by reasoning to acquire the truth and being subjected to our senses for knowledge of material creation. Knowledge for us starts by sensing, and then we abstract concepts from what we sense What we sense is called objective reality, opposed to what we think which is called subjective reality. What we think can be called objective reality if it is external to our thoughts and connected to what we sense.
 
If math is massless, and I hold the opinion that it is, how can the world of science use it?

Many will not address being outside the realm of the physical world, but math is outside the physical world.
 
I will attempt to answer:

Math are spiritual concepts abstracted from material and/or spiritual reality, it is a deeper level of abstraction than the first level, first degree of abstraction which is the idea or concept of the object apprehended, (it’s form, nature) It is called the second degree of abstraction (deeper thought) and it deals with concepts of logic, universal principles, eg. the whole is greater than any of its parts, or the whole is the sum of all its parts. or 1+1=2, which would mean nothings until we apply it to objective reality It is based on the unit 1, we can add it, multiply it, subtract it, square it, raise it to the 10 power It is an abstract system of logic, and universal truths when applied to the material world we can design, control, change, invent etc. eg. Examining a birds wing, the principle of lift was discovered, so the wing of an airplane could be designed. Not only could we fly, but with the principles and laws of math we could design a huge aircraft to carry many people. Our math had to be consistent with the objective world to be successful. This was accomplished by the use of logic and universal principles, and laws of math. Logic and universal principles are not material, but spiritual. It deals with quantitative realities. It is interesting that math is founded on the unit 1, creation is founded on the the Being One God
 
Concerning science and Torah, these are two places that we hear about math.

I believe that Galileo and the early Pythagorean were in accurate. Math does not run the universe.

Also, god is not math.

The numerology in the Holy Bible is saying that numbers such as seven, then and fifty are signs.

These signs such as seven mean that God swore an oath to us that He would always love us.

That is, I believe, biblical numerology. ANY HELP?
 
The symbolic value of numbers in Sacred Scripture has been a matter of great interest to scholars the number one or unity is the symbol of God, of the TrinityThe number two is considered to be an imperfect number because is implies a lack of unity, and can represent creation which consists of multiplicity. It can also apply to charity which consists of the giver and the receiver. three represented the Trinity and made it sacred to Christians In the Apocalypse it denotes plenitude, eg. the three unclean spirits, the dragon, the Beast, and the false prophet. The number four represents the evangelists, and has come to signify revelation. Seven is sacred to many people 4 represented the world, and three represented the Trinity, the union of the human and the divine In the Apocalypse as through out scripture is expresses perfection or completeness it is used 54 times the number ten represents perfection corresponds to the ten Commandments , in the Apocalypse it represents the l0 days of tribulation, the l0 horns of the dragon. The number twelve was sacred to the Jews, representing the l2 tribes, also is mentions the l2 stars in the crown of the woman clothed with the sun Multiples of l2 are also indicative of plentitude, : 24 elders, l2 tribes, l2000 members, l44000 followers of the Lamb. The number 666 the number of the Beast is a number of extreme imperfection, because each digit is one less than the number seven. l000 in the Apocalypse refers to a considerable but indefinite length of time. Numbers are used symbolically.

The universal principles of math are found on God as their source, and creation is permeated with these truths that are self evident. God is not math, and even if it is found in the universe it does not run the universe
 
Jim_Baur said:
Is math beyond the domain that physical science has placed upon itself?
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Yes. Math is basically a game in which one assigns definitions to terms, postulates relationships among those terms, and sees what follows logically from those postulates. It is only for pragmatic concerns that math produces theorems of practical importance. Math is designed for reality, reality isn’t designed for math.
 
ynotzap said:
The universal principles of math are found on God as their source, and creation is permeated with these truths that are self evident. God is not math, and even if it is found in the universe it does not run the universe
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Yes, only God can “run” the universe. Yet it is difficult to imagine a universe that is not reducible everywhere to mathematical principles. Even the age of the universe is roughly determinable. Though we will never know precisely what happened during the initial Big Bang, we can be fairly confident that if we did know, some kind of mathematical formula could be applied.

As Quantum physicist Paul Dirac put it, “God is a mathematician of a very high order and He used advanced mathematics in constructing the universe.”
 
I think that math only describes the noumenon.

That is all.

Math is a construct of human reason just as genus, species, and kingdom.

Human math is a symbol and Bible numerology is a sign of God’s love.
 
Jim_Baur said:
I think that math only describes the noumenon.

Math is a construct of human reason just as genus, species, and kingdom.
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This is true to a degree, in that we discover mathematical principles. But math is not imagined. It is tied to the physical world in necessary ways, following certain laws of logic that reflect the exterior world, or better yet the mind of God which devised these laws in such a way as to be understood by human reason.

E=mc2 describes a physical relationship that actually exists in the real world. Rather than say it was invented by a man, we might say it was discovered by a man. If all humans suddenly disappeared, the reality of E=mc2 would not disappear. It would just not be known in the knower’s mind so much as in the mind of the omniscient Knower. 😉

As Einstein put it, he wanted to know the mind of God.
 
Math is a system of logic created by humans that help in describing the relationships between physical entities.

It can apply directly to physical entities and it’s axiom’s can be studied, explored and applied in the imagination, abstracted from physical entities.
 
JIm Bauer

Are we dealing with another definition of ‘mass’ than the one I am familiar with, namely, “mass is a property of matter associated with gravity and/or inertia”. What is the meaning of “Does math have mass?” Are you asking: Is math affected by gravity? Does it have inertia? The answer to the OP when considered from a gravitational or inertial view is: Yes, math is “massless”.

I suspect that you are searching for an answer to a different question such as: "How can we describe the nature of mathematics, does it exist objectively, subjectively, rationally, and/or transcendentally?

From you posts, I would say that you are partially correct when you wrote “…that math is a creation of the human intellect.” I tend to agree with the 19th century German mathematician, Leopold Kronecker when he said, “'God made natural numbers; all else is the work of man”! I am inclined to add geometry to the natural numbers as God’s direct contribution. I arrive at that conclusion from the observation that there are a number of other animals that that can count (natural numbers) and utilize geometrical concepts; only man can do calculus.

Therefore God provided the natural numbers as part of objective reality and allowed man to discover the calculus (along with other math systems such as topology) as part of rational reality.

Yppop
 
abucs said:
Math is a system of logic created by humans that help in describing the relationships between physical entities.

It can apply directly to physical entities and its axioms can be studied, explored and applied in the imagination, abstracted from physical entities.
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But who created logic?

This just pushes back the question by one step. If God created logic (and possibly the natural numbers)–then all the rest of Math follows.

Furthermore, if our mathematical systems are a game, but it applies to the real world–does that not imply that on some level the real world was created with these maths, and possibly others we have yet to discover or imagine?

Consider fractals–they were always there in the world, but until recently we had not looked in quite the right way to characterize them and develop the math for them. What other maths are there for us to discover, or create?
 
I would say logic is part of the system of maths. It goes together for the purpose stated previously.

It is brilliant and complex and pervades nature but there is a real question I believe in how much it derives from nature rather than being transcendent.

It’s certainly an interesting question.
 
Thus we come back to the equally unanswered but long-debated question of whether math (and other formal systems) are discovered or invented. But that is an issue for another thread. . . .

Still, I believe it is clear in general that, as formal systems, for organizing and structuring our experience, math itself is massless, although specific examples of it would often have mass, such as three oranges, or even the electromagnetic field around a current-carrying wire.
 
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