Is Mental illness proof of an ultimate mind?

[rom422]

Has anyone figured out what the mind is? Is it something different from the brain?

 

[prodigalson2011]

Has anyone figured out what the mind is? Is it something different from the brain?

I personally think this is one of those questions that will remain beyond the domain of scientific inquiry forever.

 

[rom422]

I personally think this is one of those questions that will remain beyond the domain of scientific inquiry forever.

I was just wondering whether, all things being equal, there is a discernible difference between the brain of a person who is mentally healthy and the brain of a lunatic.

 

[prodigalson2011]

I was just wondering whether, all things being equal, there is a discernible difference between the brain of a person who is mentally healthy and the brain of a lunatic.

Yes. But this still leaves room for the independence of the mind. A good analogy I read (possibly on these forums?) was to think of the brain as a guitar and the mind as a musician. If the guitar is warped, broken, missing strings, etc., the guitarist will not be able to play it properly and it will sound horrible. It’s not the strongest case that could be made, sure, but it gets the general notion across.

 

[Trishie]

Who is the judge of what is mentally “healthy” or “ill?”
/QUOTE] Are any of us, truly mentally without anything that is, in some manner, ill? If so, who’s to judge? If I judge that I am not in any way without what is disordered in my perceptions and understandings and in my interpretations, am I right? Or shall we agree that you might see in me that there is that in me that is mentally unwell/unbalanced, ill to any lesser or greater degree…even just a little!. And you? A similar argument?

 

[Trishie]

Who is the judge of what is mentally “healthy” or “ill?”

Yes!
Are any of us, truly mentally without anything that is, in some manner, ill? If so, who’s to judge? If I judge that I do not in any way possess or act out of what is disordered in the perceptions and understandings, interpretations and judgments of my mind, am I correct? Or shall we agree that you might see in me that there is that in me that is mentally unwell/unbalanced, ill to any lesser or greater degree…even just a little!
And you? Each of us? A similar argument?

 

[Trishie]

I’ve decided to include an indication of my own particular insanity in the form of a poem I wrote at one stage and which came to mind as I thought about and responded obliquely to your argument, or really only a fraction of it. You do know that because you usually, well, invariably (mercifully?) ignore me if I do post on your threads! I’m out of phase and is that not a little insane? Yes, there are norms by which we judge, but are they not arbitrary. Where does the abnormal-mind-definition begin or end?
Mostly I didn’t even reply to your question:
Thats part of what ails my mind. You proposed logic, I jump a detail seeking to unravel your logic by subjective rambling that expresses my detail in opposition to your logic.

Understanding

My dear, I love you,
but the reasons matter not.
One cannot argue with the fact of love
which is entirely of the stuff of God.

Yet, my dear, we sometimes seem estranged!
my thought and heart have failed to closely match your own
and we leave each other alien for a while–
even wounded or damaged for life–
though both are imaged in love of the same eternal God!

The wonder perhaps is that we meet at all
for each created being is possessed of logic,
of identity unique within itself
which only appears reflected in others’ lives and thoughts
for none can know or judge but by a private consciousness.

Each soul remains hidden within divine Love’s mysteries
manifest in wondrous individual expression.
It is a whole world, formed and blessed,
and burdened with heavy crosses, perhaps?
a world in value, goodness and giving apparently slight?
yet perhaps its’ all–the sum of what God grants it
for His own secret delight!

After death many surprises await,
of treasure buried in simple human hearts
concealed perhaps in ugly shapes, foolish deeds and ordinary lives
and in lives that others might choose to brush aside or to crush
as crippled, useless, unbalanced, peculiar, unwanted, unworthy…
He miniaturises His special created delights sometimes–
persons negligible even to themselves.

And it pleases Him that our least ones He shall exalt
before the vast and great and good.
From God alone
comes union and mutual understanding of souls, minds and hearts.
True comprehension waits upon
the fullness of eternal communion, begun in Eucharist.

Until then I only know, like you, the truths as I allow Him
to speak them in my limited, biased self.
I cannot know and love you, dear, nor you myself,
unless God grants this gift.
This does not mean that I do not love you.
Just that I love the best that I can.
Forgive me all the rest. And I, you too.

 

[rom422]

Yes. But this still leaves room for the independence of the mind. A good analogy I read (possibly on these forums?) was to think of the brain as a guitar and the mind as a musician. If the guitar is warped, broken, missing strings, etc., the guitarist will not be able to play it properly and it will sound horrible. It’s not the strongest case that could be made, sure, but it gets the general notion across.

Very good point. I, too, believe in the independence of the mind, but of course I cannot prove that as I am not a brain scientist.

To me, the mind is the cognitive component of our psyche (or soul). Therefore, it includes not only the intellect, but also the memory, the imagination, and even our sense perceptions. Is that how you understand the mind also?

 

[rom422]

Yes!
Are any of us, truly mentally without anything that is, in some manner, ill? If so, who’s to judge? If I judge that I do not in any way possess or act out of what is disordered in the perceptions and understandings, interpretations and judgments of my mind, am I correct? Or shall we agree that you might see in me that there is that in me that is mentally unwell/unbalanced, ill to any lesser or greater degree…even just a little!
And you? Each of us? A similar argument?

They say that even geniuses exhibit some idiosyncrasies. That’s why after a psychological test and the doctor said I was normal, I was disappointed. LOL. It means I’m not a genius.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

I am not saying this is a valid argument. I am just throwing it out there to see what happens.

1. Mentally ill people exist objectively; and we know they shouldn’t be like that. Which is why we call them mentally ill.
2. If Mentally ill people exist objectively, then it would mean that there is a way they ought to think, but they have been deprived of that ability.
3. Given metaphysical naturalism, there is no such thing as a way things ought to be. Things just are.
4. But that would contradict our experience of mentally ill people.
5. Therefore if there is way that people ought to think, this can only be true if there is an objective standard of mental health, by which our minds our measured. This mind has to exist objectively, otherwise the standard is not objective.
6. Since this ultimate standard of mind is the measure of what a mind ought to be in terms of health, then it stands to reason that this ultimate mind is the hierarchical source of all contingent minds. If you ought to do something, that means that you were brought in to existence to do something, and this is true because your minds presence in reality is intrinsic with the fact that you ought to do something or ought to be a certain way. In this case you exist to reflect a standard of mental health.

Conclusion: There is an Ultimate Mind

I’m a SchizoAffective person and I’m capable of insight that mentally healthy people are not. For instance, a symptom of my disorder is a deep perception (that’s what we call madness). I see myself within myself, I constantly stare at my image through my reflection; and in so doing I’m able to discern the effects of good and evil on the human psyche. In otherwords, I know myself and am able to clean myself because I see clearly sin’s effect on my being.

You see, you mentally healthy people are lucky because of your ignorance. You can allow evil thoughts to pass throughout your mind, that’s your sin. I can’t even allow a single evil thought within me because then it appears in the depths of madness, within my image through my reflection. A single evil thought left to ruminate within me would consume me because I’m constantly looking at my image. That’s what madness is.

The ultimate standard mind is the sinless mind. And you people are far from that. You’re not the mentally healthy, you’re the insane, allowing evil to coarse through your mind as if it didn’t affect you. But you’re lucky, if you’re perception deepened you would be consumed by the evil that you have stored up for yourselves.

 

[Trishie]

They say that even geniuses exhibit some idiosyncrasies. That’s why after a psychological test and the doctor said I was normal, I was disappointed. LOL. It means I’m not a genius.

No it doesn’t! You are a genius without idiosyncrasies? Perhaps you are?
We’re questioning the norms, some of us, aren’t we!

 

[rom422]

I’ve decided to include an indication of my own particular insanity in the form of a poem I wrote at one stage and which came to mind as I thought about and responded obliquely to your argument, or really only a fraction of it. You do know that because you usually, well, invariably (mercifully?) ignore me if I do post on your threads! I’m out of phase and is that not a little insane? Yes, there are norms by which we judge, but are they not arbitrary. Where does the abnormal-mind-definition begin or end?

Hey that’s a great poem you wrote. Thanks for sharing!

I do not think that the rules by which we judge are all arbitrary. Sometimes (but not always) we judge what is “normal” by the statistical average, which is not arbitrary. So, a 20/20 vision is considered normal, and the farther you depart from that, the more severe is the abnormality. The mind, however, is not so easy to measure statistically. For example, you can’t say a student is a dummy just because he does not pass the average or normal score in math. The truth is, this student might be poor in math, but he or she excels in poetry.

 

[Trishie]

I am not saying this is a valid argument. I am just throwing it out there to see what happens.

1. Mentally ill people exist objectively; and we know they shouldn’t be like that. Which is why we call them mentally ill.
2. If Mentally ill people exist objectively, then it would mean that there is a way they ought to think, but they have been deprived of that ability.
3. Given metaphysical naturalism, there is no such thing as a way things ought to be. Things just are.
4. But that would contradict our experience of mentally ill people.
5. Therefore if there is way that people ought to think, this can only be true if there is an objective standard of mental health, by which our minds our measured. This mind has to exist objectively, otherwise the standard is not objective.
6. Since this ultimate standard of mind is the measure of what a mind ought to be in terms of health, then it stands to reason that this ultimate mind is the hierarchical source of all contingent minds. If you ought to do something, that means that you were brought in to existence to do something, and this is true because your minds presence in reality is intrinsic with the fact that you ought to do something or ought to be a certain way. In this case you exist to reflect a standard of mental health.

Conclusion: There is an Ultimate Mind

Being more serious. I get what you’re saying, and there is an ultimate mind if you will, that we can call God… but seriously I don’t think we can successfully measure the human mind along any ultimate lines as we cannot get past the subjective nature of our judgments. You could possibly receive a vote result (although you ARE arguing from and accepted definition, the boundaries of which I contest)that could back up your hypothesis, but it would always be artificial from our human viewpoint as we are millions of separate consciousnesses/awarenesses who really can only assess with our own separated and subjective minds. I could show you behavior that seems perfectly insane, but to you it might indicate some kind of imbalance or ill-ness in my thought processes…and any of the billions of human awarenesses can witness the same question in a billion different ways, even with arbitrary agreement on degree and definition of illness or sanity. Just me, as it’s the only awareness I have…if you have followed me through all of my 28 thousand plus posts, you will have discovered those ways in which I am not quite sane, not quite balanced. You also might discover the ways in which I am. Questions and answers also regarding billions of human brains and minds.

I’m glad that you periodically challenge us. And I’m sorry that I tease you occasionally, but I will again, I’m sure. It interests me to…perhaps you rouse the philosophy student I once was, an those insane discussions that a few times lasted until dawn.

I’m more subjective than you appear to be so if I argue with you it will be subjectively, which is my strength and my weakness, as in this excerpt from my journal:

'How profound is the giving required by that person, and this! What happiness, what anguish is known there! What temptation is encountered! What sensitivities enfeeble or enrich and sanctify that life! How great is Your glory in the strange or ordinary facts and struggles of their existence! Yet, how can we know?

We err in applying rules of private interpretation to another’s intention or act, except as feeble measure for our compassion and charity. Only by one’s private consciousness—unless enlightened by Your Spirit of love—can each see what lies in another’s soul.
Each person is a unique expression of Your love, an individual world, some great, and some miniature, separate in existence and consciousness, yet united in You. Yet how quickly do we judge each other! We offer You our hurt and theirs in prayer for healing and forgiveness.

Let us not belittle or betray, in thought, or by gossip—the seemingly sinful, the apparently misled or foolish, or those perceived to be ugly, or crippled in mind or spirit. Let us celebrate their preciousness in You. Let us no longer sin against Your sacred love and creation in anyone by our judgments however seemingly justified. Let Your Holy Spirit know and love each other person through us, with sensitivity to their emerging needs. Give us compassion for each other, however perplexed or inaccurate our perception, so that we revere each other—and ourselves—as individuals sacred to You.’

Hopefully you will get your discussion back on track if my posts have simply been an illogical red-herring.

 

[tonyrey]

I get what you’re saying, and there is an ultimate mind if you will, that we can call God… but seriously I don’t think we can successfully measure the human mind along any ultimate lines as we cannot get past the subjective nature of our judgments.

If we cannot get past the subjective nature of our judgments we are doomed to be solipsists!

 

[Sair]

As I understand it, mental illness is normally diagnosed with reference to how a person perceives external reality, and how their mental workings affect their interactions with the world. If a person is socially dysfunctional, they are often regarded as mentally ill - but this is very much a normative diagnosis. In certain circumstances, a person who would otherwise be declared legally insane might be considered a great figure, even a saint - after all, Joan of Arc claimed to hear voices; these days, given the symptoms, we would assume she was mentally ill, but in her day, there was no denying that the voices were heard, even if her persecutors supposed they were from the devil. It does rather diminish her allure to apply the likely modern diagnosis of schizophrenia.

As someone who has suffered several bouts of severe depression throughout my life, I can assure anyone who wonders that this is very much a physical illness, as debilitating as any bodily infection. There are very definite physical states of the brain that manifest as depression, and dealing with these is just as important as trying to cultivate a more positive attitude, in overcoming the effects of the illness.

 

[tonyrey]

As I understand it, mental illness is normally diagnosed with reference to how a person perceives external reality, and how their mental workings affect their interactions with the world. If a person is socially dysfunctional, they are often regarded as mentally ill - but this is very much a normative diagnosis. In certain circumstances, a person who would otherwise be declared legally insane might be considered a great figure, even a saint - after all, Joan of Arc claimed to hear voices; these days, given the symptoms, we would assume she was mentally ill, but in her day, there was no denying that the voices were heard, even if her persecutors supposed they were from the devil. It does rather diminish her allure to apply the likely modern diagnosis of schizophrenia.

Cynicism is an excellent recipe for depression…

As someone who has suffered several bouts of severe depression throughout my life, I can assure anyone who wonders that this is very much a physical illness, as debilitating as any bodily infection. There are very definite physical states of the brain that manifest as depression, and dealing with these is just as important as trying to cultivate a more positive attitude, in overcoming the effects of the illness.

If all states of mind are due to a physical state of the brain how can one cultivate a more positive physical state of the brain?

 

[Sair]

Cynicism is an excellent recipe for depression…

Actually, I think you’d be surprised. Calling reality for what it is puts life in perspective and makes problems seem less overwhelming. As Oscar Wilde said, “Life is too important to be taken seriously.”

If all states of mind are due to a physical state of the brain how can one cultivate a more positive physical state of the brain?

Because the physical workings of the brain affect our attitudes - and vice versa, thanks to the brilliant phenomenon of neuroplasticity. Some parts of the brain influence other parts. The brain is not a simple mechanism, but a complex web of interactions, all affected by chemistry and physics. There are definite physical things one can do to promote positive feelings - I actually find housework and gardening, perhaps ironically, to be a great comfort and a positive influence. If one can stimulate brain functions (such as the release of serotonin) by performing certain activities with the rest of the body, that has a direct effect upon one’s overall feeling of wellbeing.

 

[tonyrey]

Cynicism is an excellent recipe for depression…

You are assuming cynicism is realistic…

If all

states of mind are due to a physical state of the brain how can one cultivate a more positive physical state of the brain?
Because the physical workings of the brain affect our attitudes, and some parts of the brain influence other parts. The brain is not a simple mechanism, but a complex web of interactions, all affected by chemistry and physics. There are definite physical things one can do to promote positive feelings - **I **actually find housework and gardening, perhaps ironically, to be a great comfort and a positive influence. If one can stimulate brain functions (such as the release of serotonin) by performing certain activities with the rest of the body, that has a direct effect upon **one’s **overall feeling of wellbeing.

You are introducing a non-physical source of control into the complex web of interactions…
e]

 

[rom422]

I believe that the human psyche (or the soul, if you don’t mind calling it that) consists of three powers: a cognitive power (the mind,) an appetitive power (the heart,) and a motor power (which controls the movement of the body).

The mind does not consist merely of our intellect (our power of understanding, judging and reasoning), but also the memory, the imagination, and even our powers of sense perception. In other words, it consists of all the powers of the soul that we use to acquire knowledge and understanding of the world around us. Its principal bodily organ is the brain, but of course it also uses our senses - eyes, ears, nose, taste, touch.

What I call the “heart” should not be confused with our bodily organ, the heart, which pumps blood throughout the body. What I call the “heart”, as opposed to the “mind”, is the appetitive component of our psyche, and it consists mainly of our will (our power to desire a good that is known by the intellect), but also includes our sense appetites (the power by which we desire sensible goods, such as food and sex). The seat of the “heart” could be the brain also, but I believe it is linked to other organs and functions of the body - such as our emotions and our passions.

Of course, besides the cognitive and the appetitive powers, the psyche also has a motor power, whose seat is probably also in the brain, but which is responsible for our powers of movement.

All the above are just my opinion. When we are told to love God with all our mind and with all our heart and with all our strength, I think that what it means is that we must love God with all the powers of our soul - in other words, with all our being.

I think that if this thread is to go anywhere, we need to know first what we mean by the “mind.” I understand the mind to be what I indicated above. Of course, we owe to Sigmund Freud the idea that the “mind” has a conscious and an unconscious part - but that might be a subject for another thread. We often think that the mind refers only to our consciousness, yet our mind is also doing a lot more, apparently, that we aren’t aware of.

 

[tonyrey]

All minds are evidence of the Ultimate Mind!