Is "Modern" or "Continuing" Revelation necessary?

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I’m going to draw what is probably a very poor analogy here, but bear with me.

Say I decide to buy my daughter a new car on her birthday (fat chance :)). I start giving her little hints about what her present will be. It has wheels. It has a seat. She knows something, but it could be a bicycle at this point. I tell her it weighs a lot. Now it could be a motorcycle. On her birthday she awakes to see a large covered object sitting in the driveway. It is obviously a car. Now the mystery is almost solved. We walk out to the driveway and begin, slowly, uncovering the vehicle. She sees the tires, the bumper, the color of the paint, the back window, the roof and finally the entire car. What was waiting to be revealed has been fully revealed. There is nothing more to be revealed. Now she gets to know the car. She learns how it handles on the road. She learns where the windshield wipers are; how to turn on the brights; how the sound system works. All of these little “revelations” surround THE revelation of the car. That is what I mean when I say that “He has stated all He has to say in His one Word”. The focus is Christ; He is the Word. The rest is just getting to know Him better.
I follow your analogy and (think I) understand what you are saying.
I think there is more to revelation than you give credit to. God reveals His will to us as an individual, as a church/religion, and as a people.
God’s revelation to Noah to build an ark would have been no use to Abraham.
God’s revelation to Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac(as a test of faith) would have been no use to Moses.
God’s revelation to Moses to deliver the House of Israel out of Egypt, would have been no use to either Noah or Abraham.
God’s will is revealed to specific people in specific times and specific places. The needs and circumstances of man change through times and places.
While I consider all these things revelations, you may not.
Jesus taught in parables, and it is by revelation that the layers of understanding are pealed away for deeper meaning to be brought forth.
It is these types of revelation that continues today.
Well, no prophet carried the same authority as Christ because no prophet carried the same authority as God. What they wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is no less the word of God, however, because it came from God. The difference between Christ and the prophets is that while the prophets received the word of God, Christ is the Word of God.
If it is no less the word of God, how can it not carry the same authority?
I think I can agree with you on this. Wow, did I actually say that? 😃
🙂
That is not at all what I am saying, although Moses may not be the best example. Moses’ allowance of divorce was contrary to truth, as Jesus pointed out. The notion of “an eye for an eye” was contrary to truth, as Jesus also pointed out. These were not God’s laws. Truth is truth and cannot change. God is Truth and He does not change.
Moses’ allowance of divorce came from God. It was a practice suited for the people of the time. An eye for an eye was also given by God. It too was a practice that was tailored to the people.
The Mosaic law as given to the people by God through Moses. It was not contrary to the truth, but was a school teacher of it. The practice of the Mosaic law pointed to the truth of Christ.
Not really. Sacrifice did not stop. It was the type of sacrifice that stopped. The sacrifice of Christ is eternal and never stops. All former sacrifices were a “type” of the sacrifice of Christ. In Him, finally, the perfect sacrifice was offered and continues to be offered. Yes, animal sacrifice stopped, but only because it found its perfection in Christ.
Exactly!!! The practice of animal sacrifice stopped, not because it was not truth, but because the Lord changed the practice of it.
The Old Testament, in my mind, can be boiled down to a faithful, loving, very patient God who pursued His children even though they kept running from Him and turning away from Him. I see no difference in the New Testament. He gave His very life for the very people that nailed Him to the cross; us. Through all of the different authors, the different genres of writing, the different circumstances, the different events we find in the Old Testament, we find the common thread of a faithful, loving and saving God. God is constant. He did not change from the Old Testament to the New.
I agree. God did not change, but the practices He laid down for man have. Times, places, and man’s understanding have changed
Just as a father teaches his children from infancy to adulthood, and the methods of teaching evolve as the child grows in age and understanding, so, too, does God’s revelation of His will to us.
 
I follow your analogy and (think I) understand what you are saying.
I think there is more to revelation than you give credit to. God reveals His will to us as an individual, as a church/religion, and as a people.
God’s revelation to Noah to build an ark would have been no use to Abraham.
God’s revelation to Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac(as a test of faith) would have been no use to Moses.
God’s revelation to Moses to deliver the House of Israel out of Egypt, would have been no use to either Noah or Abraham.
God’s will is revealed to specific people in specific times and specific places. The needs and circumstances of man change through times and places.
While I consider all these things revelations, you may not.
Jesus taught in parables, and it is by revelation that the layers of understanding are pealed away for deeper meaning to be brought forth.
It is these types of revelation that continues today.
I’m a little confused as to what you are saying here. Yes, God has spoken in various ways to His various prophets. I’m not sure what your point is. But each of them points to the one Word of God, Jesus Christ. The flood was a “type” of baptism. Issac was a “type” of Jesus. Moses delivering the House of Israel out of Egypt is a “type” of Jesus delivering us from our sins. The needs and circumstances of man change, but the truth does not change and the fullness of that truth is found only in Jesus Christ.
If it is no less the word of God, how can it not carry the same authority?
I did not say that the word of God carries less authority, I said the prophets, in themselves, carry less authority, simply because Christ is God and they are not.
Moses’ allowance of divorce came from God. It was a practice suited for the people of the time. An eye for an eye was also given by God. It too was a practice that was tailored to the people.
We’ll have to just disagree here. Jesus didn’t say that God allowed divorce. He said:

"Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matt 19:8)

Now, God did not change His mind, saying that divorce was permitted, at one moment, and then saying that you would be guilty of adultery the next moment. God is constant and His truth is constant. It was this way “from the beginning”.
Exactly!!! The practice of animal sacrifice stopped, not because it was not truth, but because the Lord changed the practice of it.
I’m not sure what else I can say here that I haven’t already said.
I agree. God did not change, but the practices He laid down for man have. Times, places, and man’s understanding have changed
Just as a father teaches his children from infancy to adulthood, and the methods of teaching evolve as the child grows in age and understanding, so, too, does God’s revelation of His will to us.
I suppose it all depends upon what you want to call a “practice”. You seem to be saying that “divorce” was a practice and God changed that practice to marriage for life. Jesus pointed out that marriage for life was that way “from the beginning”. So I would not accept your definition of a practice. Marriage is an essential truth of God that has never changed. God “permits” or “allows” murder, rape, molestation, slaughter, abortion, etc. and abhors all of it. It does not come from Him and neither did divorce come from Him in Moses’ time. His truth never changes and though He allows evil, due to our free will, He does not desire or will evil to occur.
 
I’m a little confused as to what you are saying here. Yes, God has spoken in various ways to His various prophets. I’m not sure what your point is. But each of them points to the one Word of God, Jesus Christ. The flood was a “type” of baptism. Issac was a “type” of Jesus. Moses delivering the House of Israel out of Egypt is a “type” of Jesus delivering us from our sins. The needs and circumstances of man change, but the truth does not change and the fullness of that truth is found only in Jesus Christ.
I am saying that God speaks to all and gives them direction according to where they are in their understanding. He did it in the OT. He did it in the NT, and continues to do it now. He may give instruction to those of a different country or culture that is different than what is given to His church, because of the difference of understanding, but utlimately leads to the same place…kind of a “wax on”, “wax off” thing.
Not only to different countries or cultures, but just plain different people. You and I have different understandings so He may tell you to turn left, but me to turn right, and because of where each of us are, a left turn is what you need to get where He wants you but a right turn is what I need to get where He wants me. Though a left turn seems to contradict a right turn, they both lead us to where we should be given our current position.
That is why constant instruction/revelation from God is required.
I hope that makes sense…
I did not say that the word of God carries less authority, I said the prophets, in themselves, carry less authority, simply because Christ is God and they are not.
I suppose we will simply disagree on this because as I see things, if God imbues a prophet with the authority to speak in His name, that prophet carries the same authority as God. That is how Elijah could seal the heavens and call down fire from heaven…with God’s authority. If it were not so, Elijah could not do what he did.
We’ll have to just disagree here. Jesus didn’t say that God allowed divorce. He said:
"Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matt 19:8)
Now, God did not change His mind, saying that divorce was permitted, at one moment, and then saying that you would be guilty of adultery the next moment. God is constant and His truth is constant. It was this way “from the beginning”.
The entriety of the Law of Moses is not what God wanted from the beginning, but it was tailored to the people of the time. It was a lower law…we know this because Jesus Christ brought a higher law.
I’m not sure what else I can say here that I haven’t already said.
No need, I believe we are close enough.
I suppose it all depends upon what you want to call a “practice”. You seem to be saying that “divorce” was a practice and God changed that practice to marriage for life. Jesus pointed out that marriage for life was that way “from the beginning”. So I would not accept your definition of a practice. Marriage is an essential truth of God that has never changed. God “permits” or “allows” murder, rape, molestation, slaughter, abortion, etc. and abhors all of it. It does not come from Him and neither did divorce come from Him in Moses’ time. His truth never changes and though He allows evil, due to our free will, He does not desire or will evil to occur.
In Matthew 5 Jesus states:
“32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.”
Sounds like diivorce isn’t altogether disallowed. Sure, in a perfect world, there would be no divorce as there is no need for it…but we don’t live in a perfect world. God tailors His instructions to us according to our needs.
God does not “allow” murder, rape, molestion, slaughter, abortion etc., but it does happen…not by His will or instruction. Those who perpatrate such actions will be held accountable and punished accordingly
God has instructed His people to kill and slaughter for reasons that would be defined as murder to our laws today.
When God gives instructions to “seemingly” go against His will or law, as long as we stay within His instrcutions that we do not violate His will or law. That is why the practice of divoce is allowed by God under certain circumstances here on earth.
Animal sacrifice was a practice…but it is the law of sacrifice that is the truth
Only Levites holding the priesthood was a practice, but the priesthood of God is the truth.
Divorce is a practice that is allowed within marriage under specific circumstances, but marriage is the truth.
As I understand you beliefs, marriage does not continue after death, yet marriage is ordained of God here on earth. Marriage would be a practice allowed here on earth that does not continue.
 
I am saying that God speaks to all and gives them direction according to where they are in their understanding. He did it in the OT. He did it in the NT, and continues to do it now. He may give instruction to those of a different country or culture that is different than what is given to His church, because of the difference of understanding, but utlimately leads to the same place…kind of a “wax on”, “wax off” thing.
Not only to different countries or cultures, but just plain different people. You and I have different understandings so He may tell you to turn left, but me to turn right, and because of where each of us are, a left turn is what you need to get where He wants you but a right turn is what I need to get where He wants me. Though a left turn seems to contradict a right turn, they both lead us to where we should be given our current position.
That is why constant instruction/revelation from God is required.
I hope that makes sense…
The truth of Jesus Christ is the same in all cultures, in all times, to all people all over the world. That is what the “catholic” Church is all about. His truth does not change. Is that truth given in different languages, adopted to different cultures in different times? Yes. But the truth does not vary, only its application among people of various customs and cultures. Sin is sin and virtue is virtue, whether you are in New York City or the darkest reaches of the Amazon. For instance, God does not allow divorce or polygamy among one group and call it a sin among another. The “practice” is sinful in itself. The Catholic Church has been evangelizing the world for many centuries. There have been cultures and tribes where polygamy was the common practice. Converts are prohibited from carrying on the practice, even while they have the obligation for continuing support of the families started through this “practice”.
I suppose we will simply disagree on this because as I see things, if God imbues a prophet with the authority to speak in His name, that prophet carries the same authority as God. That is how Elijah could seal the heavens and call down fire from heaven…with God’s authority. If it were not so, Elijah could not do what he did.
Well, I think we need to be very careful in our understanding here. The root of the word “authority” is “author”. God was the “Author” of all that was given to the prophets. Jesus is that “Author”. Why do you think the Jews said “He speaks as one with authority”? That meant that His authority came from Himself, not someone higher in authority. No prophet carried authority that was not given to him.
The entriety of the Law of Moses is not what God wanted from the beginning, but it was tailored to the people of the time. It was a lower law…we know this because Jesus Christ brought a higher law.
If you are saying that God revealed Himself in various ways to various people over time, until the fulfillment of that revelation in Jesus Christ, then we would agree. But He did not water down the truth. God allows evil in the world only because He will never interfere in our free will. Moses permitted divorce because of the “hardness of their hearts”. But God abhorred divorce. There is no doubt that we have a very faithful and patient God, who entered into covenant after covenant with a disobedient people in order to save them. I think I would have to disagree that God gave a lower law. It was Moses who gave a lower law. God’s laws did not change.
In Matthew 5 Jesus states:
“32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.” Sounds like diivorce isn’t altogether disallowed.
Yes, God even allows for divorce in cases of infidelity because the vow has been broken. But that is side stepping the issue of divorce under Mosaic law or Jesus would not have said what He said.

Continued…
 
Sure, in a perfect world, there would be no divorce as there is no need for it…but we don’t live in a perfect world. God tailors His instructions to us according to our needs. God does not “allow” murder, rape, molestion, slaughter, abortion etc., but it does happen…not by His will or instruction. Those who perpatrate such actions will be held accountable and punished accordingly.
As I have said, God “allows” evil because He will not interfere in our free will. And He has the power to transform that evil into a greater good. His own torture and execution is the best evidence of that. He “allows” it or it would not be. To say otherwise would be to say that God is not omnipotent, that there are forces out there beyond His power to control.
God has instructed His people to kill and slaughter for reasons that would be defined as murder to our laws today. When God gives instructions to “seemingly” go against His will or law, as long as we stay within His instrcutions that we do not violate His will or law. That is why the practice of divoce is allowed by God under certain circumstances here on earth.
Only under one circumstance and that is infidelity because the bonds of marriage are broken by infidelity. It is not arbitrary. I know of nothing that “seemingly” goes against God’s will but in fact is permissible. Divorce has never been “permissible” in God’s eyes, other than for reasons of infidelity. Polygamy has never been “permissible” in God’s eyes, even though it was practiced. It was not God’s laws that changed, only people’s perception of God’s laws.
As I understand you beliefs, marriage does not continue after death, yet marriage is ordained of God here on earth. Marriage would be a practice allowed here on earth that does not continue.
It does not continue because the need for procreation does not continue. This would be like saying that because it is appropriate that I wear fins when scuba diving I must wear them when I walk into town as well. This does not mean that I will not have even a more intimate relationship with my wife, indeed, with my entire family, in heaven. But our state of being in heaven is different than here on earth. That is why Jesus stated that we will neither marry nor be given in marriage in heaven. The institution of marriage does not make sense in heaven. We will enter into a different marriage of sorts; the wedding feast of the Lamb.
 
Originally Posted by flyonthewall
“As I understand you beliefs, marriage does not continue after death, yet marriage is ordained of God here on earth. Marriage would be a practice allowed here on earth that does not continue.”

I’m not sure how its considered ones’ belief, its Bible no? Luke 20:35-36 pretty much defines this no?

Does the Mormon Church interpret this differently?

God Bless, Gary
 
The truth of Jesus Christ is the same in all cultures, in all times, to all people all over the world. That is what the “catholic” Church is all about. His truth does not change. Is that truth given in different languages, adopted to different cultures in different times? Yes. But the truth does not vary, only its application among people of various customs and cultures. Sin is sin and virtue is virtue, whether you are in New York City or the darkest reaches of the Amazon.
Agreed.
For instance, God does not allow divorce or polygamy among one group and call it a sin among another. The “practice” is sinful in itself. The Catholic Church has been evangelizing the world for many centuries. There have been cultures and tribes where polygamy was the common practice. Converts are prohibited from carrying on the practice, even while they have the obligation for continuing support of the families started through this “practice”.
Well, God did allow both divorce and polygamy. He was very strict about sin in the time of Moses, how would you explain God’s strictness, yet allow Moses to contradict Him and allow the sinful practice of divorce?
If polygamy is a sinful practice, it does not make any sense to establish His covenant with those that participate in a sinful practice, without putting a stop to it.
Well, I think we need to be very careful in our understanding here. The root of the word “authority” is “author”. God was the “Author” of all that was given to the prophets. Jesus is that “Author”. Why do you think the Jews said “He speaks as one with authority”? That meant that His authority came from Himself, not someone higher in authority. No prophet carried authority that was not given to him.
I agree. Prophets were given their authority from God. God’s authority does not diminish, no matter who it is given to.
If you are saying that God revealed Himself in various ways to various people over time, until the fulfillment of that revelation in Jesus Christ, then we would agree. But He did not water down the truth. God allows evil in the world only because He will never interfere in our free will. Moses permitted divorce because of the “hardness of their hearts”. But God abhorred divorce. There is no doubt that we have a very faithful and patient God, who entered into covenant after covenant with a disobedient people in order to save them. I think I would have to disagree that God gave a lower law. It was Moses who gave a lower law. God’s laws did not change.
Jesus taught in parables, which kept truths hidden to those that were not ready to hear them. This is a form of watering down truths.
Yes, God even allows for divorce in cases of infidelity because the vow has been broken. But that is side stepping the issue of divorce under Mosaic law or Jesus would not have said what He said.
Of course God allows divorce, because it would be unjust for someone to be married to an immoral spouse without recourse. From the beginning, divorce was not part of a “God sanctioned” marriage, but because we are not perfect, He proscribed specific criteria under which it is not only allowed, but approved.
 
As I have said, God “allows” evil because He will not interfere in our free will. And He has the power to transform that evil into a greater good. His own torture and execution is the best evidence of that. He “allows” it or it would not be. To say otherwise would be to say that God is not omnipotent, that there are forces out there beyond His power to control.
Saying that God allows evil men to commit evil acts is not the same as God allowing divorce under specific criteria. Those evil men will be punished for their evil acts, but divorce under the criteria set by the Lord has no consequence.
Only under one circumstance and that is infidelity because the bonds of marriage are broken by infidelity. It is not arbitrary. I know of nothing that “seemingly” goes against God’s will but in fact is permissible. Divorce has never been “permissible” in God’s eyes, other than for reasons of infidelity.
EXACTLY! God sets the criteria under which it is acceptable. If it is acceptable to God, then it is not a sin.
Polygamy has never been “permissible” in God’s eyes, even though it was practiced. It was not God’s laws that changed, only people’s perception of God’s laws.
Except by the very elect of His covenant…? Abraham, through whom the whole world would be blessed. Israel, the father of HIS chosen people. Saul, the first King of Israel, chosen by God. David, whom the Lord selected and gave all Saul’s wives and concubines. Your words do not match God’s actions.
It does not continue because the need for procreation does not continue. This would be like saying that because it is appropriate that I wear fins when scuba diving I must wear them when I walk into town as well. This does not mean that I will not have even a more intimate relationship with my wife, indeed, with my entire family, in heaven. But our state of being in heaven is different than here on earth. That is why Jesus stated that we will neither marry nor be given in marriage in heaven. The institution of marriage does not make sense in heaven. We will enter into a different marriage of sorts; the wedding feast of the Lamb.
This is where we differ, as I believe marriage is eternal. One of the very first things God did was to join Adam and Eve to become one flesh. What God has joined together, let no man put asunder…does that sound like the Lord will put it asunder?
You say we will enter into a different marriage of sorts, but that goes against your own line of reasoning…that there will be no marriage in Heaven.
The institution of marriage in Heaven makes perfect sense given the correct understanding of God’s plan of happiness.
 
Originally Posted by flyonthewall
“As I understand you beliefs, marriage does not continue after death, yet marriage is ordained of God here on earth. Marriage would be a practice allowed here on earth that does not continue.”

I’m not sure how its considered ones’ belief, its Bible no? Luke 20:35-36 pretty much defines this no?

Does the Mormon Church interpret this differently?

God Bless, Gary
Marriage is taught almost from the beginning of the world:
24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
And Jesus re-inforced it:
5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

We know that whatsoever is bound on earth is bound in heaven. When God joins a man and a woman in holy matrimony, it is bound in heaven.

We believe marriage is central to our happiness within God’s plan for us.
 
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